The River District

[waterboy]

I don't begrudge them their chance to build a Utica Square South. It fits well with the suburban lifestyle and is probably perceived as daring and innovative out there. It is however just a modern recreation of the downtown/near downtown lifestyle of Tulsa during the 40's-50's.

These folks who left the city during the last 40years to inflate Jenks and BA have no interest in coming back to repopulate our downtown. Conan's flexibility is not the norm. After having leapfrogged early suburban neighborhoods for the newest sprawl, they are more likely to build density where they are now planted. I will visit and enjoy a few times a year then retreat to my own little hood.

[Renaissance]

Artist--sorry for my shrugs--just answering why I'm not doing backflips (can you shrug or do backflips on an internet forum?).

Definitely, though, it's a good sign for the economic health of the metro area.  And anything that brings folks to greater Tulsa or gives them a reason to stay is fine by me.  Of the entire development, I'm probably most interested in the fountain--that will be really cool!  I love the Bellagio water show, and it's exciting that the same folks are doing a project here.

[SXSW]

I like it only if it's part of a bigger plan to eventually make the Arkansas River navigable through Tulsa/Jenks and bring commuter rail service to the downtown-Jenks-Bixby corridor.  Those things make this ho-hum suburban faux-downtown shopping/entertainment/dining area into something that could be really exciting for our entire city.  I'll wait to see how this progresses and hopefully those issues are addressed.  Connecting this to the rest of Tulsa outside of the southside and Jenks/Bixby is good for everyone, and even better if it's using the river (our greatest shared asset as a city/region) and rail (our future as a sustainable city).

That being said I look forward to seeing more information as it becomes available i.e. what stores they have planned, what type of restaurants, the connection to the river and the Aquarium/Riverwalk, etc.  Also would be great to see renderings of the proposed design...any available besides what was used in the marketing brochure?

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by SXSW

Those things make this ho-hum suburban faux-downtown shopping/entertainment/dining area into something that could be really exciting for our entire city.  I'll wait to see how this progresses and hopefully those issues are addressed.  Connecting this to the rest of Tulsa outside of the southside and Jenks/Bixby is good for everyone, and even better if it's using the river (our greatest shared asset as a city/region) and rail (our future as a sustainable city).

That being said I look forward to seeing more information as it becomes available i.e. what stores they have planned, what type of restaurants, the connection to the river and the Aquarium/Riverwalk, etc.  Also would be great to see renderings of the proposed design...any available besides what was used in the marketing brochure?

The video gives a really good idea of what its going to look like. I dont think the developers have any "stores planned" they may have stores they would like to see or types they imagine would be interested.

""I like it only if it's part of a bigger plan to eventually make the Arkansas River navigable through Tulsa/Jenks and bring commuter rail service to the downtown-Jenks-Bixby corridor.""

That doesnt make any sense? If you want those things, this development actually makes it more likely for such a scenario to occur. This development wasnt "planned" by the city, but it being there gives more credence for a rail connection in the area, and the dams that are planned for the river were planned before this development was even imagined. I think if you want the river to be navigable from Jenks to Tulsa your going to have to figure out some way to get others to decide thats a good idea. None of the dams currently proposed would make the river navigable with any type of ferry from Jenks to downtown Tulsa. The dam proposed for the Jenks area is not tall enough to keep the river full all the way to the next dam (which I would not want because of the immense habitat loss not to mention expense). There would have to be a larger dam or some sort of channeling or something done for low water times. The Kaiser plan with the Living River Concept was the best bet for something like that, but that will cost far more than they are currently thinking of spending.

The most likely bet is that there will be a low water dam in Jenks which will allow a ferry to go either from this development or the aquarium depending on where the dam can be placed, to the Riverwalk, Kings Landing, and the Casino. I dont know who or what will decide precisely where the dam in that area will go, INCOG? but I dont think the developers can force it to go where they want it to. Though they may indeed want it to go near their development, plus I think others will decide the height of the dam as well. So dont knock this development, find those who are making the descisions about the matter and get on their case. If this development wasnt going in now, the dam would more likely be further upstream and thus there would be no chance for it to have been a consideration.

[waterboy]

Really, Artist. You seem a little defensive and certainly overreaching. The dam would not have been farther upstream if this development did not materialize. The planned location was made before the RiverDistrict came about. It is more governed by nature and stream geology than where the shopping and gambling areas are.

You are totally focussed on the development of the banks and are missing the bigger picture. Putting in locks now is good planning. Much harder to retrofit when it becomes obvious to everyone. You think only in terms of big bulky ferries but there are many craft that are able to utilize the river and are not dependent on shopping centers (your current universe). Even in the parts of the river that are not part of the lakes. Making the communities interconnected by something other than rubber wheeled trolleys and cars is valuable, progressive thinking and should be done with current dollars.

The railroad being nearby is like found money. Should be interesting to see if only the slow, status quo folks moved to the burbs during the last 40 years.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Really, Artist. You seem a little defensive and certainly overreaching. The dam would not have been farther upstream if this development did not materialize. The planned location was made before the RiverDistrict came about. It is more governed by nature and stream geology than where the shopping and gambling areas are.

You are totally focussed on the development of the banks and are missing the bigger picture. Putting in locks now is good planning. Much harder to retrofit when it becomes obvious to everyone. You think only in terms of big bulky ferries but there are many craft that are able to utilize the river and are not dependent on shopping centers (your current universe). Even in the parts of the river that are not part of the lakes. Making the communities interconnected by something other than rubber wheeled trolleys and cars is valuable, progressive thinking and should be done with current dollars.

The railroad being nearby is like found money. Should be interesting to see if only the slow, status quo folks moved to the burbs during the last 40 years.

Your right, for some odd reason I got the impression that the dam in Jenks was originally supposed to go North of the Turnpike. Then when I saw the River District rendering with the dam shown South of the Turnpike I thought perhaps some changes had been made. My bad. However I dont think that these developers can be expected to put the dam in themselves. So waiting on judging the development on whether or not the dam goes in still seems kind of harsh.

I hope it is connected by rail and by the river, but to suggest its the responsibility of this development and the development is a failure if it doesnt do that is again a bit much. Its up to us, the citizens to make that happen, the developers can help push for those connections, but they cant really be expected to build the rail and the dams, the docks, run the rail, etc. all the way into Tulsa and if they dont, they have built a lousy development.

I would appreciate it if you would give me an example of a mass transit option that could carry people back and forth as a mode of transportation on the river as it is currently planned? I dont know that much about it, I can imagine small ferries but cant imagine how they would get past the shallow part north of 71st on towards the Zink Lake? I can envision smaller touristy or recreational type boats and such, but cant see how that really connects Jenks to downtown Tulsa as a real transportation option? Is there something in the middle between these types of things? Again, I am all for it, but just cant see how it will work with what seems to be planned. Nor do I see how its a failure on these developers part if they do not make it happen somehow? If there are watercraft that will work as a viable transportation option, surely I would think they would and should put in a dock and connect to the river over there. But more than that, building dams, locks etc. is a bit much to ask.

As for this being a shopping center and that being my "current universe".  A. if this development were only the hotel, office, living around structured parking part, I would be excited about it. It would still be a significant development for the area. B. Its about an 800 million dollar development. Thats a lot of money being invested here. That alone is significant. Plus the hundreds that will be employed building it, then working there, living there, etc. 800 million dollars for goodness sakes. Ho Hum?

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Really, Artist. You seem a little defensive and certainly overreaching. The dam would not have been farther upstream if this development did not materialize. The planned location was made before the RiverDistrict came about. It is more governed by nature and stream geology than where the shopping and gambling areas are.

You are totally focussed on the development of the banks and are missing the bigger picture. Putting in locks now is good planning. Much harder to retrofit when it becomes obvious to everyone. You think only in terms of big bulky ferries but there are many craft that are able to utilize the river and are not dependent on shopping centers (your current universe). Even in the parts of the river that are not part of the lakes. Making the communities interconnected by something other than rubber wheeled trolleys and cars is valuable, progressive thinking and should be done with current dollars.

The railroad being nearby is like found money. Should be interesting to see if only the slow, status quo folks moved to the burbs during the last 40 years.

Your right, for some odd reason I got the impression that the dam in Jenks was originally supposed to go North of the Turnpike. Then when I saw the River District rendering with the dam shown South of the Turnpike I thought perhaps some changes had been made. My bad. However I dont think that these developers can be expected to put the dam in themselves. So waiting on judging the development on whether or not the dam goes in still seems kind of harsh.

I hope it is connected by rail and by the river, but to suggest its the responsibility of this development and the development is a failure if it doesnt do that is again a bit much. Its up to us, the citizens to make that happen, the developers can help push for those connections, but they cant really be expected to build the rail and the dams, the docks, run the rail, etc. all the way into Tulsa and if they dont, they have built a lousy development.

I would appreciate it if you would give me an example of a mass transit option that could carry people back and forth as a mode of transportation on the river as it is currently planned? I dont know that much about it, I can imagine small ferries but cant imagine how they would get past the shallow part north of 71st on towards the Zink Lake? I can envision smaller touristy or recreational type boats and such, but cant see how that really connects Jenks to downtown Tulsa as a real transportation option? Is there something in the middle between these types of things? Again, I am all for it, but just cant see how it will work with what seems to be planned. Nor do I see how its a failure on these developers part if they do not make it happen somehow? If there are watercraft that will work as a viable transportation option, surely I would think they would and should put in a dock and connect to the river over there. But more than that, building dams, locks etc. is a bit much to ask.

As for this being a shopping center and that being my "current universe".  A. if this development were only the hotel, office, living around structured parking part, I would be excited about it. It would still be a significant development for the area. B. Its about an 800 million dollar development. Thats a lot of money being invested here. That alone is significant. Plus the hundreds that will be employed building it, then working there, living there, etc. 800 million dollars for goodness sakes. Ho Hum?

Lots of misunderstanding here between us. I didn't mean to infer that mass transportation could be accomplished by river. I suppose it could but not without a dredging budget. It probably wouldn't be as efficient as busses. But enabling 4 different communities to be connected by water with pleasure craft, electric powered canal boats or human powered craft is really just as important. Ferries can travel between shopping, dining and gambling but they are pretty boring. And you can't beat a bus or a train for people carriers to the core of downtown but we're talking leisure time activities. It's easier to take a helicopter to the top of a mountain but people keep climbing them anyway!

I will attempt to pull historical numbers from the corps website to confirm, but I would bet that between 4pm and 2am the water level on the Arkansas in Tulsa has been navigable for over 75% of the last decade. If so, that coincides with the time most folks are drinking, dining and gambling. Makes you think. I believe we will have even more water flow, though episodic, during the next decade.

Does the lack of locks seriously limit the potential of the river? Absolutely. Is it shortsighted to ignore that assertion? Yes. Is it the responsibility of the developers? No, but they have much influence on such things otherwise there would be no plans for a dam at all. Should the players (kings crossing, the district and riverwalk) have to pay for them? Once again it will benefit them but no they shouldn't have to pay anymore than the rest of us. They should however encourage them to be a feature of the dams.

You expect folks in Tulsa, Bixby, Broken Arrow, Sand Springs, and Owasso to get excited about 800 million pumped into a tiny rich white bread nneighborhood they visit a few times a year? Really?

[waterboy]

I am having difficulty finding the time frame of 4pm to 2am but initial numbers pulled up show that during the last decade only two years averaged a flow of less than 4000cfs. Those two years may have been difficult to navigate the river but 80% is pretty good. Since they are averages that could mean it was high in the spring and dry during the summer, but I will continue to look. These are mean cfs rates for the last decade.

1997 14,230    
1998 11,390    
1999 22,930    
2000 9,661    
2001 7,722    
2002 3,803    
2003 7,861    
2004 9,988    
2005 9,069    
2006 2,266    
2007 15,750    

I was operating on the river during '01 to '04 and can attest to it being navigable at least 75% of the time in the evening hours during that period.

Monthly means:

00060, Discharge, cubic feet per second,
YEAR Monthly mean in cfs   (Calculation Period: 1997-01-01 -> 2006-12-30)

Period-of-record for statistical calculation restricted by user  
Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
1997 5,191 9,221 11,390 25,360 12,580 11,250 24,650 17,630 12,590 11,730 4,093 6,554
1998 19,850 9,726 25,000 28,580 17,390 6,306 4,549 1,726 892.8 18,270 54,540 10,430
1999 5,245 15,920 20,520 22,650 34,310 42,850 37,630 8,196 4,955 3,649 1,353 13,380
2000 6,298 4,274 26,650 18,840 10,680 8,933 14,810 4,073 2,429 2,048 6,672 3,036
2001 4,225 10,400 24,620 7,247 9,956 17,730 5,194 783.0 1,078 1,765 1,340 545.1
2002 869.5 3,283 1,388 2,365 4,273 12,520 8,209 5,166 4,026 15,010 7,116 3,122
2003 3,482 3,807 15,970 10,090 11,700 10,990 4,527 2,677 5,513 11,360 2,429 1,914
2004 2,821 7,036 29,200 9,540 15,310 10,370 18,210 8,966 2,010 1,661 6,984 4,924
2005 12,220 10,730 8,418 5,793 3,554 27,240 8,908 11,900 7,013 3,065 2,196 955.0
2006 1,124 1,884 840.9 872.7 8,300 1,633 2,802 2,085 1,300 305.0 58.8 84.8
Mean of
monthly
Discharge 6,130 7,630 16,400 13,100 12,800 15,000 12,900 6,320 4,180 6,890 8,680 4,490

If you have the patience to peruse these, you find that it confirms that only 2002 and 2006 were dry years for river discharge. Bear in mind that 3-4000 cfs keeps the river at about 3ft deep.

[Conan71]

It's taken a whole lot of restraint to not gloat and say "I told you so" on all the momentum which has been building about the river since Oct. 9th.

Let's see, without a sales tax smash and grab job by Friendly Bear's "Tax Vampires" we have gotten:

-Revamped and separated trails between 31st & 11th (though there are people *****ing now they took away the chat gravel [}:)] ) along with new lighting.  I believe this was from the generosity of the Kaisers.  31st to 51st is underway.

-QT park at 41st St. construction is underway.  Thank you Chet!

-Kaiser is buying the Blair property (think that's the proper name) on the east side of the road just north of the ped bridge(house with big lawn)

-$50mm to build LWD's, thank you Feds and State.  These were from the existing tax base collections if I'm not mistaken, not a new one.  Now the people who biznitch that Inhofe doesn't bring home the bacon are biznitching that he supported an earmark.  Sheesh...

-West bank trail extension from I-44 to Turkey Mountain- That's done.  I believe that was already in the works.

-Creek Casino expansion.  Paid for by one degenerate gambler at a time, looks about 50% complete.

-River District- they are moving dirt, more when it dries out.

-Riverwalk Crossing Phase II supposed to be starting up.

If the city will get off their donkey and consolidate the M&E facility at 23rd & Jackson into the old Downtown Airpark as was originally rumored, there's a huge tract available for development without lining the pockets of whomever the huckster is that actually owns the dirt the concrete plant is sitting on.  We can afford to cut a deal on property we already own or do a long term lease to a developer.  This one is soooo obvious, and I believe it could be served by the same rail line from DT to Jenks.

If the city maintains their predictability, they will instead wind up selling the M & E yard to Sinclair so we can further junk up the west bank, then we will pay $70mm for the concrete plant and give it away for $5mm.

[waterboy]

Looks like development on the river and around the river is still controversial and probably always will be. We are a community of homebuilders, lawyers and shopping centers. 'Nuf said.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

It's taken a whole lot of restraint to not gloat and say "I told you so" on all the momentum which has been building about the river since Oct. 9th.

Let's see, without a sales tax smash and grab job by Friendly Bear's "Tax Vampires" we have gotten:

-Revamped and separated trails between 31st & 11th (though there are people *****ing now they took away the chat gravel [}:)] ) along with new lighting.  I believe this was from the generosity of the Kaisers.  31st to 51st is underway.

-QT park at 41st St. construction is underway.  Thank you Chet!

-Kaiser is buying the Blair property (think that's the proper name) on the east side of the road just north of the ped bridge(house with big lawn)

-$50mm to build LWD's, thank you Feds and State.  These were from the existing tax base collections if I'm not mistaken, not a new one.  Now the people who biznitch that Inhofe doesn't bring home the bacon are biznitching that he supported an earmark.  Sheesh...

-West bank trail extension from I-44 to Turkey Mountain- That's done.  I believe that was already in the works.

-Creek Casino expansion.  Paid for by one degenerate gambler at a time, looks about 50% complete.

-River District- they are moving dirt, more when it dries out.

-Riverwalk Crossing Phase II supposed to be starting up.

If the city will get off their donkey and consolidate the M&E facility at 23rd & Jackson into the old Downtown Airpark as was originally rumored, there's a huge tract available for development without lining the pockets of whomever the huckster is that actually owns the dirt the concrete plant is sitting on.  We can afford to cut a deal on property we already own or do a long term lease to a developer.  This one is soooo obvious, and I believe it could be served by the same rail line from DT to Jenks.

If the city maintains their predictability, they will instead wind up selling the M & E yard to Sinclair so we can further junk up the west bank, then we will pay $70mm for the concrete plant and give it away for $5mm.

Whats your point? lol

Mr Kaiser had already promised to pay for the trail improvements we are seeing before the vote. Had nothing to do with the vote. Was going to pay for a lot more stuff if the vote passed.

The Riverwalk expansion and River District would have been just as likely to have happened regardless of the vote, everyone knew that.

Chet said he was going to build a QT park there regardless of the vote, but if the vote failed it would be much smaller,,, and it is.

The Creek Casino was already going to expand, regardless of the vote, had nothing to do with the vote. They still have plans to expand even more after this next phase is done.

Everything that is happening was said to be going to happen before the vote even came up. The vote was to pay for things... "in addition to" what was already going to happen. In the case of the dams... it would have made the process more certain,(we havent got that federal money yet and still dont have enough to build them and I still hope they are able to build a larger holding dam in Sand Springs which ALONE would cost almost as much as ALL the federal monies we are due to get), the dams plus pedestrian bridges over them, the Living River concept at one dam.  Dont forget the QT park we are getting is a greatly scaled down version, plus no park at 71st and no river development on the West Bank, no connector to downtown, no piers, iconic pedestrian bridge, enhanced park north of 71st, Shoreline reconfiguring and hardening, habitat restoration, etc. etc.  

Now will we eventually get most of that stuff  or something similar, regardless...? Sure, hopefully. Could have said that 50 years ago.

[swake]

Inhofe hasn't gotten us a dime, he got a commitment to add the river projects to the federal list of approved projects but so far he's hasn't gotten a dime of real money. And he got that commitment BEFORE the vote. The trails work was actually already underway at the time of the vote and Artist is right about the park at 41st, it was not dependant on the vote either. The Casino was under construction long before the vote was even considered.

We did get $25 million from the state, but that's far short of the total needed and most of that money is going to be spent in Jenks and Sand Springs. That $25 million was going to come to Tulsa in some fashion anyway as it was payoff for the state giving money the Indian Museum in Oklahoma City. And even when (IF) Inhofe gets the $50 million in federal funds and the work on the three dams is completed there still will be no new water anywhere in the river in Tulsa except from about 76th St south. There still is no money to buy the concrete plant and there's still no river development happening in the city of Tulsa that was not already happening before the vote, none. That $500 million "Tulsa Landing" mixed use project on the west bank is dead and gone. The tax dollars that project would have generated in the city of Tulsa will now all be generated in Jenks. The river isn't being "done", at least not anywhere except in Jenks.

I hope you made good use of that two dollars you saved on sales taxes last month.

[Conan71]

Still whining like a ***** I see Swake.  You live in Jenks, what are you *****ing about? Pretty funny all this stuff that is going on now was or would have happened regardless of the river vote, yet the "Yes" crowd made the river sound like a bleak, dreary place w/o the tax.  Have all of you forgotten the rhetoric that all these developers were going to take their plans and go home?

The River District did not get firmed up until after the vote, BTW.  RW Crossing II was announced as moving forward after the vote.  There were all sorts of innuendo, rumors and outright threats no one else would develop along the river without the low-water dams.  They still don't exist, yet they are moving dirt.  What a miracle!!!

Nice way to spin Inhofe's contribution, BTW.  The federal funds will come which means the original V-2025 funds can be applied as they were intended.  The Water Resources Development Act of 2007 passed on Nov. 9, 2007 over a Presidential veto, exactly one month after the river vote, not prior to the river tax vote.

Tulsa Landing was a pig in a poke from the git go.  Someone else with the money will show up and do it right.

The developers down in Jenks didn't ask the city or county to over-pay someone else for a piece of property then ask for the city or county to sell it for a drastically-reduced price so they could build on it.  They got a TIF, which I think is the proper way to go about it.  The concrete plant deal stinks to high heaven.

Unless I missed something on the agreement in purchasing OneTech, the city pitched the move to taxpayers predicated on consolidating operations and offices.  The M&E center at 23rd & Jackson was one of those sites, as I recall.  I don't know the exact measurements, but the site looks about as big as the concrete plant, it belongs to the city and is supposed to be divested as per the OneTech deal, as I recall.

Kaiser announced more contributions to the river trails since the vote and I expect will do more around town in the future.  

It is what it is.  Progress without a mysterious slush fund for the county commission to dip out of as they see fit to use for any project they want.  

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Still whining like a ***** I see Swake.  You live in Jenks, what are you *****ing about? Pretty funny all this stuff that is going on now was or would have happened regardless of the river vote, yet the "Yes" crowd made the river sound like a bleak, dreary place w/o the tax.  Have all of you forgotten the rhetoric that all these developers were going to take their plans and go home?

The River District did not get firmed up until after the vote, BTW.  RW Crossing II was announced as moving forward after the vote.  There were all sorts of innuendo, rumors and outright threats no one else would develop along the river without the low-water dams.  They still don't exist, yet they are moving dirt.  What a miracle!!!

Nice way to spin Inhofe's contribution, BTW.  The federal funds will come which means the original V-2025 funds can be applied as they were intended.  The Water Resources Development Act of 2007 passed on Nov. 9, 2007 over a Presidential veto, exactly one month after the river vote, not prior to the river tax vote.

Tulsa Landing was a pig in a poke from the git go.  Someone else with the money will show up and do it right.

The developers down in Jenks didn't ask the city or county to over-pay someone else for a piece of property then ask for the city or county to sell it for a drastically-reduced price so they could build on it.  They got a TIF, which I think is the proper way to go about it.  The concrete plant deal stinks to high heaven.

Unless I missed something on the agreement in purchasing OneTech, the city pitched the move to taxpayers predicated on consolidating operations and offices.  The M&E center at 23rd & Jackson was one of those sites, as I recall.  I don't know the exact measurements, but the site looks about as big as the concrete plant, it belongs to the city and is supposed to be divested as per the OneTech deal, as I recall.

Kaiser announced more contributions to the river trails since the vote and I expect will do more around town in the future.  

It is what it is.  Progress without a mysterious slush fund for the county commission to dip out of as they see fit to use for any project they want.  

Not whining.

And Pig in a Poke? A national developer with a proven track record of similar successful developments. Whatever.

Look, you are a businessman. You turned down a very marginal tax amount of .2 percent sales tax for the river. Saved yourself enough money to buy half a gallon of gas a week.

As a community that tax would have generated $270 million in tax revenue. That is money that would have been taken out of the local economy but in return there were donations of roughly $150 million and at least $500 million in private development money that we have not realized. That $270 million conservatively would have had a ROI of $3 brought into the economy for every $1 in taxes taken out. When it comes to government development that's a really great return, and then add to that the increased sales tax base and increased property tax base from Tulsa Landing and it was beyond stupid to turn it down.

And let's be specific about what Inhofe has accomplished for us; there have been NO federal appropriations bills passed that include money for the river in Tulsa. The projects have been authorized but there's been no money attached. He's been promising the money for four years now (since 2025 was passed) and only in the past six months has he even gotten the spending authorized.
That might make sense if Inhofe was just some bumpkin first term Senator, but he's not. He's the ranking Republican on the committee in the Senate that oversees this kind of work and until last year he was the friggin' Chair of the committee and he didn't get us anything. He simply wasn't even trying, that's the only explanation I can come up with. You tell me how else the Chairman of the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works fails for years to get money for dams and river work passed in his home city.

Inhofe gets no credit, first of all because we still don't have the money but most of all because getting the money through Congress would be a very simple thing for him to accomplish and he just hasn't bothered.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71



The River District did not get firmed up until after the vote, BTW.  RW Crossing II was announced as moving forward after the vote.  There were all sorts of innuendo, rumors and outright threats no one else would develop along the river without the low-water dams.  They still don't exist, yet they are moving dirt.  What a miracle!!!  

I dont know what galaxy you were living in at the time, but I never heard anyone suggest that the River District or any second phase of the Riverwalk would not happen if the vote did not pass.

Matter of fact, I remember people complaining about how the River District wasnt even paying attention to the river, even then. It had its back to the river basically and I remember commenting numerous times about how the River District was a "River District" in name only, It is a development BY the river not ON the river. They could care less if there is a dam there or not, their development will do great either way, regardless.


BTW, I am going to be gone until Sunday night or Monday morning for work. So just because I havent responded to your next feeble, argument doesnt mean you have wone. []