What About Rail?

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Bike_Billboards

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist
I know real artists, people of all kinds like hanging around real artists, and your no artist. Please take your meds.

New Rule: Pull stick out of BTUT, before bicycling.

See there ya go again. Making bike riding less appealing.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

I'll be fascinated to hear the details of any proposal, pfox.  It's really odd to me that something as common as passenger rail has such vehement enemies (as well as bike-riding buffoons) speaking so strongly against it before there's actually any formal plan presented.  I mean really, strikingly odd--I can't even begin to fathom where certain posters on this forum are coming from.  

Total incomprehension of the oddballs aside, I appreciate your levelheadedness and reasonable explanations.  Do let us know ASAP what Crowley et al. have in mind for a public transit supplement to the roads plan.

I too am interested in seeing some more concrete plans laid out. Its hard to debate the merits of something until you know the different ideas and you get something, at least initially, on paper. Once you do that then people can find faults, solutions to the faults, etc. After that, then you can then do the math, balance the pros and cons columns adequately and see where the chips fall.  We also need some feel for timetables. When would say a BA to Tulsa line seriously considered, 10 years, 20? Would we do that other "starter line" first? and thus should debate it on its own merits as well?

[T-TownMike]

Man, the naysayers never really speak clearly and I believe it's part of their approach. When you don't have a case people usually deflect and squiggle.

Mass transit makes sense, but some just have NO VISION. PFOX made excellent points, that just seem to have fallen on deaf ears.

The bus ridership is a completely different animal than rail. The two working in concert would be the ultimate to INCREASE ridership, would it not? How some could argue against that is a flawed. Riding a bus for 10-20 minutes is practical and convient, riding it for 45 min.-hours on end is cumbersome. Think big for a change and think how this will help make Tulsa a draw again. You put the money up for vision 2025 atttractions, now get a more economical way to get there.

[USRufnex]

I've been reading some of these threads with great interest but remain very skeptical... mostly because of the insistence of using "we know best" tactics, urbanist pseudo-moral judgements, and what IMO is a very naive view of using mass transit to "spur economic development."

I like the use of existing track.  I like the idea that the first step will be commuter rail, since I just don't see the demand for mass transit in Tulsa.  

If supporters of mass transit will shuddup with the narrow minded moral judgements and elitist social commentary, this argument could move forward responsibly.  If politicians and activists can present a reasonable set of ideas based purely on anticipating the future transportation needs of aging baby boomers and suburban morning commuters, then there might be a surprising amount of support in the city of Tulsa, and the metro area...

Tell middle-class working families who have homes and cars that their hard-earned lifestyle is "unsustainable," and you'll make absolutely sure that there will be ZERO citizen support for any creative mass transit ideas that may make perfect sense.  

I've done commuter rail and the L in Chicago off and on for about 15 years, the T in Boston for a year and a half.  Mostly without a car.  So, a huge advantage to living in Tulsa is being able to drive and not getting stuck in massive traffic jams... getting to just about anyplace in Tulsa within 10 mins... finding parking so close to McNellies that the first time I drove there, I walked around for about 10 mins convinced I must've illegally parked...

My Tulsa commutes are highly sustainable, thank you very much... and if gas goes up to $10 per gallon, I'll just stop driving downtown and to Cherry Street for the nightlife and stay in my 'hood close to where I work...

You can't legislate walkable urban morality.

[booWorld]

^ That's a great post, USRufnex.  My attitude toward planning in Tulsa soured considerably when my property was down-zoned against my wishes by INCOG's insistent "we know best" tactics, and I'm saying that as an urbanist.  To have the INCOG land planners insist that it would be a good idea to reduce the development potential of my property by a factor of 11 (to 2.66 dwelling units per acre) and then to have the INCOG transportation planners insist that we really need to start planning for rail transit to spur dense development elsewhere seems bizarre to me.  After all, I purchased property within walking distance of the downtown and the river.  It's within a neighborhood which for years has been targeted in the Comprehensive Plan for multi-family development (up to about 29 to 33 dwelling units per acre).  

I was very enthused about increasing the density of central Tulsa to make mass transit more feasible and to increase the overall sustainability of the city.  But INCOG pushed for a drastic change of the zoning rules for my property which now limits it to low-density, non-sustainable suburban development.  

I think rail transit could work, but I'm not too keen on the idea of paying for an expensive rail system only to see the development rights which were stripped from my property in central Tulsa transferred to somewhere else in the hinterlands.  INCOG's transportation department might have the very best of intentions, but they really ought to coordinate their efforts with other departments within INCOG.  The system is not predictable.    

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by booWorld

I knew I'd read something about a rail line through the downtown.  Turns out, I read it right here on the forum.

quote:Originally posted by pfox on January 23, 2008, on the Jenks Passenger Rail topic

Truthfully, the most critical segment for either [the Broken Arrow or the Jenks] line is the one that connects the two: the downtown corridor.  Basically, from 23rd and Jackson on the west bank, across the river, through downtown to Union Station and to both Broken Arrow and to the north towards the Airport.  That segment really should be begun first in order to make the rest of the lines work.

Is this downtown corridor segment the "starter" line?

[]

Lets just play pretend and discuss some of the possibilities and pitfalls of such a line.

Here are a couple of the possibilities I can think of right off hand.

1. It falls right smack dab in the middle of several areas that are redeveloping, have plans to redevelop and that we as a city want to redevelop. Brady Arts district, Arena District, Greenwood, OSU Tulsa, The River across from downtown, some blighted industrial property "possible parking?" just nw of downtown towards the airport,,,, (you will be hearing about several new living options in a couple of those areas here in a few months [])

We want and will see more living and attractions in the Brady Arts district. We want and will see more living and attractions in the Greenwood area. We want more living at OSU Tulsa and it is a "destination. We want and will hopefully see living and destination on the west bank of the river, the river is a destination already. We want and will see more living and attractions in the east end and there are already are destinations and events in downtown. All of these things and more are ripe for synergies with each other, people living in all those areas going to things in all the different areas. And more and more to come every year. Oh, and of course people living in those different areas and working and shopping in those different areas and downtown, going to school, guests staying at hotels and going to different areas etc.

2. The line is already there so is fortunately, comparatively cheap. Could have good parking synergies, instead of spending money on a new parking garage or two, you use any funds that would have gone to those to help build the line instead (park at OSU Tulsa or other property to go to the Arena, Octoberfest, or park near the arena to go to Octoberfest, etc, etc.). The city could make a bit of money to help maintain the line if it ownes property at either end when that property is developed on.  

3. If in the distant future, you want to extend in any direction either towards BA, Jenks, the Airport, the central structure is already in place. Its a small start and you get a feel for how it will work for Tulsa.

4.  The types of people that are moving to downtown and to these areas are also the very kinds of people who want to live in walkable, urban, districts and who will want to use a rail line like this to get from point A to B, they would even expect it.

[booWorld]

I knew I'd read something about a rail line through the downtown.  Turns out, I read it right here on the forum.

quote:Originally posted by pfox on January 23, 2008, on the Jenks Passenger Rail topic

Truthfully, the most critical segment for either [the Broken Arrow or the Jenks] line is the one that connects the two: the downtown corridor.  Basically, from 23rd and Jackson on the west bank, across the river, through downtown to Union Station and to both Broken Arrow and to the north towards the Airport.  That segment really should be begun first in order to make the rest of the lines work.

Is this downtown corridor segment the "starter" line?

[si_uk_lon_ok]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

I've been reading some of these threads with great interest but remain very skeptical... mostly because of the insistence of using "we know best" tactics, urbanist pseudo-moral judgements, and what IMO is a very naive view of using mass transit to "spur economic development."

I like the use of existing track.  I like the idea that the first step will be commuter rail, since I just don't see the demand for mass transit in Tulsa.  

If supporters of mass transit will shuddup with the narrow minded moral judgements and elitist social commentary, this argument could move forward responsibly.  If politicians and activists can present a reasonable set of ideas based purely on anticipating the future transportation needs of aging baby boomers and suburban morning commuters, then there might be a surprising amount of support in the city of Tulsa, and the metro area...

Tell middle-class working families who have homes and cars that their hard-earned lifestyle is "unsustainable," and you'll make absolutely sure that there will be ZERO citizen support for any creative mass transit ideas that may make perfect sense.  

I've done commuter rail and the L in Chicago off and on for about 15 years, the T in Boston for a year and a half.  Mostly without a car.  So, a huge advantage to living in Tulsa is being able to drive and not getting stuck in massive traffic jams... getting to just about anyplace in Tulsa within 10 mins... finding parking so close to McNellies that the first time I drove there, I walked around for about 10 mins convinced I must've illegally parked...

My Tulsa commutes are highly sustainable, thank you very much... and if gas goes up to $10 per gallon, I'll just stop driving downtown and to Cherry Street for the nightlife and stay in my 'hood close to where I work...

You can't legislate walkable urban morality.

Can you explain how rail would not spur economic development. I deal with the benefits of development caused by these schemes on a daily basis. If you could tell me that it would not be the case, explain why and show me a study, I'd take a very keen look at it.

One of the reasons some people have a 'we know best' attitude is that they are qualified transport professionals, like pfox, to put it simply they do know best. I think sometimes this confidence in their own professional judgment may come across as 'pseudo moral judgments', but they are in fact professional opinions.

I think one advantage that has to be said about Tulsa is that unlike many cities you can easily drive everywhere. The problem with this though is you have to drive anywhere. Cars don't create density and walkability, introduce other options and you can start to see denser, mixed use and walkable neighborhoods. Even if you don't live in one of these areas or use the mass transit, you'll feel the benefit when 10% of people who use the turnpike start taking mass transit.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by booWorld

I knew I'd read something about a rail line through the downtown.  Turns out, I read it right here on the forum.

quote:Originally posted by pfox on January 23, 2008, on the Jenks Passenger Rail topic

Truthfully, the most critical segment for either [the Broken Arrow or the Jenks] line is the one that connects the two: the downtown corridor.  Basically, from 23rd and Jackson on the west bank, across the river, through downtown to Union Station and to both Broken Arrow and to the north towards the Airport.  That segment really should be begun first in order to make the rest of the lines work.

Is this downtown corridor segment the "starter" line?

Yes.

[booWorld]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:Originally posted by booWorld

I knew I'd read something about a rail line through the downtown.  Turns out, I read it right here on the forum.

quote:Originally posted by pfox on January 23, 2008, on the Jenks Passenger Rail topic

Truthfully, the most critical segment for either [the Broken Arrow or the Jenks] line is the one that connects the two: the downtown corridor.  Basically, from 23rd and Jackson on the west bank, across the river, through downtown to Union Station and to both Broken Arrow and to the north towards the Airport.  That segment really should be begun first in order to make the rest of the lines work.

Is this downtown corridor segment the "starter" line?

Yes.

From where to where?  What route?
How many stops or stations, and where will they be?
How much will the starter line cost?
How much will the operation and maintenance costs be?
Who will pay for the starter line, and how?
The goal is to get the starter line in operation by when?
The trains will be running on what sort of frequency?

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

I've been reading some of these threads with great interest but remain very skeptical... mostly because of the insistence of using "we know best" tactics, urbanist pseudo-moral judgements, and what IMO is a very naive view of using mass transit to "spur economic development."

I like the use of existing track.  I like the idea that the first step will be commuter rail, since I just don't see the demand for mass transit in Tulsa.  

If supporters of mass transit will shuddup with the narrow minded moral judgements and elitist social commentary, this argument could move forward responsibly.  If politicians and activists can present a reasonable set of ideas based purely on anticipating the future transportation needs of aging baby boomers and suburban morning commuters, then there might be a surprising amount of support in the city of Tulsa, and the metro area...

Tell middle-class working families who have homes and cars that their hard-earned lifestyle is "unsustainable," and you'll make absolutely sure that there will be ZERO citizen support for any creative mass transit ideas that may make perfect sense.  

I've done commuter rail and the L in Chicago off and on for about 15 years, the T in Boston for a year and a half.  Mostly without a car.  So, a huge advantage to living in Tulsa is being able to drive and not getting stuck in massive traffic jams... getting to just about anyplace in Tulsa within 10 mins... finding parking so close to McNellies that the first time I drove there, I walked around for about 10 mins convinced I must've illegally parked...

My Tulsa commutes are highly sustainable, thank you very much... and if gas goes up to $10 per gallon, I'll just stop driving downtown and to Cherry Street for the nightlife and stay in my 'hood close to where I work...

You can't legislate walkable urban morality.

Sorry I irk you, buddy.  It's not intentional.  Conan said earlier that he did not feel like being made to feel guilty about the way he lives.  I told him, and I tell you to, I don't think anyone should feel guilty.

For one thing, the development offered in Tulsa is almost entirely a suburban, one-size-fits-all.  There really aren't any choices for us in this regard.  So, we're currently locked with few reasonably-priced options.  Yes, I do believe it is a development pattern that is inefficient and expensive...and we've got multi-billion dollar street problems to prove it.  Are you saying that it's not?

I personally don't think it's "elitist" to contemplate changing this development pattern to something we can all afford.  The thread category is called "Development", Rufnex.  If it were something called "Let's be sweet to each other" then my tone would be different, probably.  Geezus.

And for Bates, yes, I've spent several years relying on something other than cars as my main means of getting around:  Busses, bikes, and walking.  As a child, a college student, and a young grad, and, in three different cities.  I sill use taxis and busses when I decide to go have a drink.  And I even ride a bike, though, not as often as my *ss would like.  Later, when I get old, I'll be doing more riding than driving.  So will you.

And, Our last three family vacations have been to Chicago, Boston, and New York.  My young kids have seen more subways than your young kids.  Yes, it's definitely different.  It's hard to tell if it's any more challenging than trying to strap into a minivan.  Is it any more dangerous than herding 'em across a big parking lot?  Statistically speaking, I'd bet not by a long shot.  Yes, there are some tedious aspects to walking around with kids.  It's a different set of pains, but, are we going to SanFran this summer?  You bet.

[Bike_Billboards]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

New Rule: Pull stick out of BTUT, before bicycling.

quote:
See there ya go again. Making bike riding less appealing.

Are YOU something really STUPID to allow ME to ruin YOUR decision to bike?  []  If so, THANK YOU very much for bestowing me SUCH great powers.

I actually wish you never ride a bike again in your life, just because of ME.  Suckaaaaaaa. []

Another random observation:  Collectively, bicyclists are SLIME, like sperm.  But, it only takes one to make the difference.  []

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by booWorld


From where to where?  What route?
How many stops or stations, and where will they be?
How much will the starter line cost?
How much will the operation and maintenance costs be?
Who will pay for the starter line, and how?
The goal is to get the starter line in operation by when?
The trains will be running on what sort of frequency?

You seem excited. (and I PM'ed you)

[PonderInc]

Tulsa is a small enough town that anyone who wants to participate in the civic process has that option.  However, since it takes time and energy to engage in the civic process, and you you don't get paid to be a citizen... many people don't get invovled.  Much easier to sit on the sidelines and snipe and gripe.

First step towards actively participating in the civic process?  Get educated on the issues you care about, show up, speak rationally...and voila! you become a part of the solution.

I think the "what about rail" event will be a great beginning to a dialogue within the community about transit.  What better way to begin the conversation: ask questions, gather information, and form educated opinions.

[Bike_Billboards]

quote:Originally posted by T-TownMike
The bus ridership is a completely different animal than rail.

Yep.  The typical bus rider don't vote.  So, they get screwed FIRST.  Tulsa Transit can't even meet the basic transportation needs of its own employees.  

And, NOBODY wants a bus station in their neighborhood.  Criminals might use the bus to make the getaway.  GIVE ME A FRIGGIN' BREAK, already.

Why is there talk of a Jenks and BA rail line?  They are better-off and VOTE.  Hey, how come NOBODY's talking the Turley line?

The better question to ask is "WHAT about just getting more people on more buses, BEFORE we bet on rail?

GET A GRIP, people.