Olympic Protests

[cannon_fodder]

Just curious to get a feel for what Tulsans think about the protests surrounding the Olympics and perhaps China in general.

The reason this popped into my head is the posting of the "official news release" in China:

quote:People along the Torch Relay route have extended the flame a warm welcome and the relay is proceeding successfully as planned. . .

http://torchrelay.beijing2008.cn/en/news/headlines/n214296388.shtml

Seeing how they deny outside media, block internet, and curtail public discussion this is what most Chinese will think.  Makes you damn glad for the independent if not hyper commercial media we enjoy (this just in, a faux celebrity did something).

[RecycleMichael]

Picking China was a terrible mistake for the Olympic committee.

The Chinese government ain't ready for the spotlight. The way they crackdown on protesters is unbelievable. Free Tibet!

[grahambino]

If you distinguish major differences between the actions of the Chinese and the United States governments, you haven't been paying attention.

We just pay lip-service, they don't.

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by grahambino

If you distinguish major differences between the actions of the Chinese and the United States governments, you haven't been paying attention.

We just pay lip-service, they don't.

I pay close attention, but must have missed something.  Please tell me:

- Who are the journalists the United States currently has locked?  The CPJ lists 2 for the US (one released to Iraqi custody and being prosecuted for murder, the other in an Al-Jazeera reporter found with the Taliban and in Gitmo).  China has  29 - most for "subverting the state."  

- what books are currently banned in the United States (China has thousands)?

- What web sites are blocked (China has Millions)?

- What travel restrictions exist on US citizens?  Chinese citizens need permission to travel interior and rarely grant it to travel exterior.

- What restrictions on news media are placed in the United States (China only allowed the official government version)?

- How many people have been forcibly resettle in the United States in the last 100 years (China has hundreds of millions)?

- What religions are banned in the US?

- What is the limit on children in the US?

- How many protesters are sent to labor camps each year in the US?

- What political parties are banned in the US and which party is the one that has a monopoly on office?

- How many executions were carried out in the US without a jury trial, formal evidence, or an appeal (42 executions in the US, all with jury and appeal for murder - Amnesty International estimates 7 - 8,000 in China for a wide range of offenses including theft, few with a jury or appeal)?

- When did torture become an viable source of evidence in US courts, including any and all charges against citizens (and has led to execution for theft)?

- How many scholars does the US have in prison for spying?  Or how many scholars in general does the US have in prison for doing research or holding unpopular views?

- What religions does our government have an official policy to discourage and to whom do worshipers need to register with?

- When did we lose the right to bare arms, the right to own property, the freedom of speech, the right to trial by jury, and the right to redress our grievances with the government?

I'd say there are some pretty damn significant differences.

[cks511]

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

Picking China was a terrible mistake for the Olympic committee.

The Chinese government ain't ready for the spotlight. The way they crackdown on protesters is unbelievable. Free Tibet!

+1

not to mention lead paint and tainted dog food.  A few months ago I stopped purchasing as much as possible that is made in China.  If I needed cooking utensils, that are now mostly made there, I go to thrift stores to purchase older made in USA items.  Same for tools, other household stuff.  Wild Oats puts out dog treats that my dogs LOVE, but it is made in China, sorry pups you don't get it anymore.

[grahambino]

- Who are the journalists the United States currently has locked? The CPJ lists 2 for the US (one released to Iraqi custody and being prosecuted for murder, the other in an Al-Jazeera reporter found with the Taliban and in Gitmo). China has 29 - most for "subverting the state."

A:  Don't know.  

- what books are currently banned in the United States (China has thousands)?

A:  Books have been banned all over the United States in the past and will continue to happen.  

- What web sites are blocked (China has Millions)?

A:  That depends on where you use the internet and who your ISP is.

- What travel restrictions exist on US citizens? Chinese citizens need permission to travel interior and rarely grant it to travel exterior.

A:  Cuba

- What restrictions on news media are placed in the United States (China only allowed the official government version)?

A:  How about the Valerie Plame, Joe Wilson, Robert Novak, Office of the Veep. thing a few years ago went by the wayside? There are obviously some otherwise, you wouldn't not see 'condition of anonymity' so often...

- How many people have been forcibly resettle in the United States in the last 100 years (China has hundreds of millions)?

A. Since you put the last 100 year caveat in there, how about the Japanese in WWII?

- What religions are banned in the US?

A: Ask Warren Jeffs about this one.

- What is the limit on children in the US?

A:  There is not one.

- How many protesters are sent to labor camps each year in the US?

A:  We just arrest them on trumped up charges, then let them go after being sufficiently bruised.

- What political parties are banned in the US and which party is the one that has a monopoly on office?

A:  I guess you could consider the Green Party banned in certain states, due to restrictive ballots.  Not officially banned, but certainly not encouraged.


- How many executions were carried out in the US with a jury trial, formal evidence, or an appeal (42 executions in the US, all with jury and appeal for murder - Amnesty International estimates 7 - 8,000 in China for a wide range of offenses)?

A:  See everyday any local police dept. across America plays judge jury & executioner.  For a local recent example how about a mentally retarded man getting shot in the back by TPD while running away?  As for official numbers, I have no idea how many people are murdered by the police in the U.S. each year.

- How many scholars does the US have in prison for spying? Or how many scholars in general does the US have in prison for doing research or holding unpopular views?

A:  No idea.  They might not be locked up, they are being spied on.  I guess I could throw that guy from Univ. of Colorado out there.

- What religions does our government have an official policy to discourage and to whom do worshipers need to register with?

A:  Talk to David Koresh or Warren Jeffs about this one.  Native Americans also spring to mind.

- When did we lose the right to bare arms, the right to own property, the freedom of speech, the right to trial by jury, and the right to redress our grievances with the government?

A:  
I guess it depends on what memos get written in the next 9 months?

You could ask some property owners in New London, Connecticut about the right to own property.

Freedom of speech, oh you mean those cages where you can express your free speech?  I think the  Westboro Baptist Church might have something to say about it.



I just have a feeling say if Vermont were to begin to rebel against the U.S. Government, you'd see similarities between Vermont & Tibet in a swift, heavy-handed approach.

There would be similar protests all over the world if the U.S. were hosting the Olympics this year, instead of China.  I just think its naive to assume the U.S. Government isn't similar to the Chinese government in many ways.

[RecycleMichael]

quote:Originally posted by grahambino
I just have a feeling say if Vermont were to begin to rebel against the U.S. Government, you'd see similarities between Vermont & Tibet in a swift, heavy-handed approach.

Please explain what you think the U.S. government would do in your proposition?  

He have clear examples of what China is doing.

[tim huntzinger]

[guido911]

Oh that's right Grahambino, U.S. is close to or just as bad as China. More mindless "blame America first" crap. If you are looking for a big difference, here's one: You and your ilk can move out. No questions will be asked (except if you go to Cuba)

[cannon_fodder]

My responses in green, the fact that we can have this dialog illustrates a major difference.  I included previous quotes for easy reference.


- Who are the journalists the United States currently has locked? The CPJ lists 2 for the US (one released to Iraqi custody and being prosecuted for murder, the other in an Al-Jazeera reporter found with the Taliban and in Gitmo). China has 29 - most for "subverting the state."

A:  Don't know.  
green]I gave you the answer.

- what books are currently banned in the United States (China has thousands)?

A:  Books have been banned all over the United States in the past and will continue to happen.  
Excluded by school boards or community libraries, not by the Federal Government.  You are free to own any book you wish.

- What web sites are blocked (China has Millions)?

A:  That depends on where you use the internet and who your ISP is.
No web sites are banned by the Federal Government and even most ISPs (companies) ban nothing.

- What travel restrictions exist on US citizens? Chinese citizens need permission to travel interior and rarely grant it to travel exterior.

A:  Cuba
You are free to travel to Cuba, you are prohibited from spending dollars there.  Even if an outright travel exclusion, still one exception vs. universal exceptions.

- What restrictions on news media are placed in the United States (China only allowed the official government version)?

A:  How about the Valerie Plame, Joe Wilson, Robert Novak, Office of the Veep. thing a few years ago went by the wayside? There are obviously some otherwise, you wouldn't not see 'condition of anonymity' so often... So the restriction in the US is to require journalists to testify to illegal behavior that they are a party to (releasing the name of an undercover agent is illegal, Novak knows who did it).  This is comparable to total control of media?

- How many people have been forcibly resettle in the United States in the last 100 years (China has hundreds of millions)?

A. Since you put the last 100 year caveat in there, how about the Japanese in WWII?
The Japanese are horrible people too then.  I assume that means few in the United States?



- What religions are banned in the US?

A: Ask Warren Jeffs about this one. Warren Jeffs was convicted for ACCESSORY TO RAPE OF A MINOR for forcing a 14 year old girl to marry and have sex with her 19 year old cousin.  He is free to worship any god he deems fit and no law may be past infringing on that right.  Laws

- What is the limit on children in the US?

A:  There is not one.

- How many protesters are sent to labor camps each year in the US?

A:  We just arrest them on trumped up charges, then let them go after being sufficiently bruised.

Protesting is a right, but there are rules.  If you block access or touch others you will be arrested.   More often than not there is no bruising involved.  Is this a better or worse system than China?

- What political parties are banned in the US and which party is the one that has a monopoly on office?

A:  I guess you could consider the Green Party banned in certain states, due to restrictive ballots.  Not officially banned, but certainly not encouraged.
I also dislike the 2 party system, but in most places you are free to vote for any party or any person (not really in Oklahoma though).  Still, even a strict 2 party system > 1 party system.


- How many executions were carried out in the US with a jury trial, formal evidence, or an appeal (42 executions in the US, all with jury and appeal for murder - Amnesty International estimates 7 - 8,000 in China for a wide range of offenses)?

A:  See everyday any local police dept. across America plays judge jury & executioner.  For a local recent example how about a mentally retarded man getting shot in the back by TPD while running away?  As for official numbers, I have no idea how many people are murdered by the police in the U.S. each year.  
You are comparing occasional police shootings of armed suspects to state sponsored executions for theft?

- How many scholars does the US have in prison for spying? Or how many scholars in general does the US have in prison for doing research or holding unpopular views?

A:  No idea.  They might not be locked up, they are being spied on.  I guess I could throw that guy from Univ. of Colorado out there. So none locked up?  The guy who says 911 is an inside job and/or our fault gets watched by the government, not locked up.  That's the same?

- What religions does our government have an official policy to discourage and to whom do worshipers need to register with?

A:  Talk to David Koresh or Warren Jeffs about this one.  Native Americans also spring to mind.
The Native American church is even free to collect and use peyote, so no argument there.  David Koresh was wanted on weapons Ccarges,  Jeffs for accessory to rape.     If those are the best examples of religious persecution we are going well.

- When did we lose the right to bare arms, the right to own property, the freedom of speech, the right to trial by jury, and the right to redress our grievances with the government?

A:  
I guess it depends on what memos get written in the next 9 months?

You could ask some property owners in New London, Connecticut about the right to own property.

Freedom of speech, oh you mean those cages where you can express your free speech?  I think the  Westboro Baptist Church might have something to say about it.

Property rights are the foundation of our country.  While I disagree with the new jurisprudence on eminent domain it still requires compensation and offers a path for grievances in that regard.  A somewhat rare exception.  In China, all wealth is still technically reserved to the state.  There is again, no difference there?

And per free speech - "I HATE GEORGE BUSH and think we totally disagree with many government policies."  I'd be in jail in China for posting that.  Your major complaint is that citizens cannot yell "YOUR HUSBAND WAS A FAG" at military widows from closer than 50 feet.

Restrictions on rights are taken seriously,  the fact that we can have that discussion even with the government is a huge step above many other nations.


I just have a feeling say if Vermont were to begin to rebel against the U.S. Government, you'd see similarities between Vermont & Tibet in a swift, heavy-handed approach.


I doubt we would send in troops to quell a Vermont protest led by ministers.  I doubt federal troops would be send in barring an open armed rebellion, in which instance I don't know what would happen.  But I really don't anticipate finding out


There would be similar protests all over the world if the U.S. were hosting the Olympics this year, instead of China.  I just think its naive to assume the U.S. Government isn't similar to the Chinese government in many ways.

I'm not denying that they are similar in many ways.  Both want to keep order.  Both have parties interested in retaining power.  Both want to assert themselves on a world stage.  And both wield great internal power.

You said

quote:If you distinguish major differences between the actions of the Chinese and the United States governments, you haven't been paying attention.

and I pointed out numerous very significant differences.

and if the Olympic Torch of the USA was being protested, we would be talking about WHY it was being protested.  Not told that it received a warm welcome and everyone loves us.  Seems like a significant difference and the entire point of the matter to me.[/green]

[grahambino]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

Oh that's right Grahambino, U.S. is close to or just as bad as China. More mindless "blame America first" crap. If you are looking for a big difference, here's one: You and your ilk can move out. No questions will be asked (except if you go to Cuba)

Our government is in no place to criticize any other on human rights.  Not in the past, not in the present and not in the future.  

I suppose I could say the same thing to you.  Feel free to move if you don't like reading opposing viewpoints or freedom of speech.

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by grahambino


Our government is in no place to criticize any other on human rights.

And again...

Freedom of speech.  Number of children allow.  7000+ state executions without a jury.  Overt and admissible torture.  Restrictions on viewpoints (what you are technically allowed to think).  Violently put downs of peaceful protests.  Lack of economic freedom.  Limited freedom of travel.

Do you REALLY REALLY think the USA is just as restrictive as China?  Hell no we aren't perfect and are certainly open and subject to criticism.  But do you really not see the differences?

Tell me, because if you don't there is no point in this.

[custosnox]

quote:Originally posted by grahambino

quote:Originally posted by guido911

Oh that's right Grahambino, U.S. is close to or just as bad as China. More mindless "blame America first" crap. If you are looking for a big difference, here's one: You and your ilk can move out. No questions will be asked (except if you go to Cuba)

Our government is in no place to criticize any other on human rights.  Not in the past, not in the present and not in the future.  

I suppose I could say the same thing to you.  Feel free to move if you don't like reading opposing viewpoints or freedom of speech.

Since you don't like this country, why don't you move and see how much you miss that freedom of speech you like so much

[tim huntzinger]

He is just being 'prophetic.' G-d d*** the USA, right?

[Ed W]

I'm wondering if it may be more effective in the long term to picket the local Wal-Mart rather than protest the Olympic torch relay.  After all, Wal-Mart is something like their fifth largest trading partner.  Wal-Mart corporate security may not be amused, and they have a nasty reputation.

Come to think of it, the Chinese government uses oppressive measures against dissidents, while here in the USA that job is privatized to the big corporations.  If a police officer, for instance, wants me to pee in a cup, he needs a warrant.  My employer, however, can effectively coerce a search without any recourse on my part.