Tulsa tax payers to fund Hornets

[perspicuity85]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/8049250?MSNHPHMA

"Stern suggested that calling the moved club Oklahoma, instead of Oklahoma City, might be desirable because it reflects the importance of other parts of the state such as Tulsa in the franchise's viability."

[Chris]

How about we tax any advertisement for professional sports in Oklahoma City that's placed in Tulsa, i.e . billboards and the such to recoup this money.

[waterboy]

Shouldn't someone representing Tulsa at the legislature be pushing for some of the Sonic games to be played at our arena? We can punish them for their ambition or we could attempt to profit from it. Not much money in pettiness.

As far as naming, what other professional teams use a state name rather than a city name?

[RecycleMichael]

Florida Marlins
Arizona Diamondbacks
Texas Rangers
Colorado Rockies
New York Mets
New York Yankees
New York Giants
New York Jets
Tennesee Titans
Arizona Cardinals
Minnesota Vikings
Carolina Panthers
Minnesota Timberwolves
Indiana Pacers
New York Knicks
New Jersey Nets
New Jersey Devils
New York Rangers
New York Islanders
Carolina Hurricanes
Florida Panthers
Colorado Avalanche
Minnesota Wild

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

Florida Marlins
Arizona Diamondbacks
Texas Rangers
Colorado Rockies
New York Mets
New York Yankees
New York Giants
New York Jets
Tennesee Titans
Arizona Cardinals
Minnesota Vikings
Carolina Panthers
Minnesota Timberwolves
Indiana Pacers
New York Knicks
New Jersey Nets
New Jersey Devils
New York Rangers
New York Islanders
Carolina Hurricanes
Florida Panthers
Colorado Avalanche
Minnesota Wild

Now factor out those states whose teams are in such heavily populated or closely located cities that a state name makes sense. Like New York, New Jersey, Minnesota, Florida. That leaves Colorado, Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Indiana and Arizona. Then factor out hockey cause no one freakin cares. That leaves six teams that go with the state name. The list of teams using city names is much longer. Bottom line, some do, some don't. Depends.

Like it or not, OKC has more excitement to its name than the name Tulsa or Oklahoma in general. We are viewed as a pretty little oil town that's very political, fundamentally religious, and essentially negative. Perhaps due to our consistently voting down tax issues or maybe the Coburn, Inhofe, Rhema, ORU identification. Accurate or not, OKC wins the branding war. Whatever, at some point we have to stop being angry at OKC and start building some positive enthusiasm for our own city. Focusing on our snobbery and jealousy isn't doing that.

[Chris]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

Florida Marlins
Arizona Diamondbacks
Texas Rangers
Colorado Rockies
New York Mets
New York Yankees
New York Giants
New York Jets
Tennesee Titans
Arizona Cardinals
Minnesota Vikings
Carolina Panthers
Minnesota Timberwolves
Indiana Pacers
New York Knicks
New Jersey Nets
New Jersey Devils
New York Rangers
New York Islanders
Carolina Hurricanes
Florida Panthers
Colorado Avalanche
Minnesota Wild

Now factor out those states whose teams are in such heavily populated or closely located cities that a state name makes sense. Like New York, New Jersey, Minnesota, Florida. That leaves Colorado, Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Indiana and Arizona. Then factor out hockey cause no one freakin cares. That leaves six teams that go with the state name. The list of teams using city names is much longer. Bottom line, some do, some don't. Depends.

Like it or not, OKC has more excitement to its name than the name Tulsa or Oklahoma in general. We are viewed as a pretty little oil town that's very political, fundamentally religious, and essentially negative. Perhaps due to our consistently voting down tax issues or maybe the Coburn, Inhofe, Rhema, ORU identification. Accurate or not, OKC wins the branding war. Whatever, at some point we have to stop being angry at OKC and start building some positive enthusiasm for our own city. Focusing on our snobbery and jealousy isn't doing that.

I think you're completely missing the point.

[cannon_fodder]

First, I don't care if it's called OKC Taxball or Oklahoma Taxball... it's still BS that I get taxed to fund an NBA team I don't really want.

Waterboy:

You're going to have to explain yourself to me.  I don't understand your team name comment at all.  

New York has Buffalo, Albany, and NYC.  Buffalo is clearly capable of supporting it's own pro-teams and in no way identifies with NYC.  Yet some NYC teams keep the New York name and drop the "city."

Florida has Jacksonville, Tampa, Miami, Orlando and probably Tallahassee that can support pro teams and many other large communities that fans are drawn from.  Yet the Marlins just go with "Florida."  

Minnesota certainly has two cities that can support pro teams... and they are marketed as a single metro area (sound familiar?).  They exclusively use "Minnesota" in their pro teams regardless of what city they actually play in.

I guess I don't understand what you were trying to get at.

quote:We are viewed as a pretty little oil town that's very political, fundamentally religious, and essentially negative. Perhaps due to our consistently voting down tax issues or maybe the Coburn, Inhofe, Rhema, ORU identification. Accurate or not, OKC wins the branding war. Whatever, at some point we have to stop being angry at OKC and start building some positive enthusiasm for our own city. Focusing on our snobbery and jealousy isn't doing that.

I agree.  That is the perception of Tulsa - we are the place where Oral Roberts saw a 900' tall Jesus that was once rich with oil.  OKC has rebranded itself as a vibrant young town and done very well at it.  I'm glad OKC is getting an NBA team if as a community that is what they want.  I'm neither being snobbish nor jealous of their success.

But that doesn't mean I want to pay for it.

When OKC pays for a new Driller's stadium downtown ($60,000,000 would do nicely), we'll see if they think that sounds fair or not.  And that is ignoring the larger issue that the State of Oklahoma should not subsidize a multi-billion dollar entertainment business ANYWHERE in the state.  The OKC taking Tulsa money angle is ancillary to that over riding issue in my head.

[Chris]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder


But that doesn't mean I want to pay for it.

When OKC pays for a new Driller's stadium downtown ($60,000,000 would do nicely), we'll see if they think that sounds fair or not.  And that is ignoring the larger issue that the State of Oklahoma should not subsidize a multi-billion dollar entertainment business ANYWHERE in the state.  The OKC taking Tulsa money angle is ancillary to that over riding issue in my head.

+1

[pfox]

I am surpised at the lack of coverage in the Tulsa World regarding the team name.  I was expecting a response, considering the amount of support that Tulsa leadership has given to this effort, other than "The team will be called Oklahoma City". It was pretty much the first thing out of his mouth (Mick Cornett).  And I think it is a slap in the face to the citizens of Oklahoma...Especially Tulsa, considering the role Tulsa played in making OKC a viable market.  Read between the lines on the statements made by David Stern, and I don't think it is hard to conclude that without the Tulsa market, this isn't happening.

quote:Oklahoma City Mayor Mick Cornett: I'd personally like to thank Commissioner Stern, his NBA staff and the members of the Relocation Committee that came to Oklahoma City today and allowed us to give our presentation. We had a number of Oklahomans who were there, many of them as part of the presentation but also there in a support role.

Former Mayors Humphreys and Norick, Mayor Kathy Taylor from Tulsa was down in a support role, Governor Keating, Governor Henry were on hand, Mike Holder, the Athletic Director at Oklahoma State, Joe Castiglione from the University of Oklahoma, Bob Stoops, the Oklahoma head football coach was in the room; as well as the entire ownership group of the Sonics franchise.

So, it was a great show of support and I think symbolic of Oklahoma City's long or at least through two years support of the NBA in this city, and I think (it) reflects well on our stance that we are a perfect relocation site for an NBA franchise. Commissioner, thank you very much for all of the attention that you gave us today.

Q: Commissioner, what did you learn today about Oklahoma City that you didn't already know?

Stern: We knew about the support of the team and the Hornets and how well this community responded to the tragedy of Katrina, but we hadn't been through, in effect, the soon-to-be re-modeled Ford (Center) and seen the plans and the care for some combination of loges and sky suites and restaurants and food service and you know, outdoor roofs, and very modernistic design that is really going to move this Ford Center into the first rank of NBA arenas.

And, I would say there's just something about being in the room with all of the people who are in charge, for the Governor to talk about the quality of jobs, legislation with both leaders of the legislature there; for the mayor to take us through the MAPS program with respect to his predecessors and him for the head of the business units to take us through, really, the breakdown specifically through video travels of the aviation industry, the medical research industry, indeed the 18 universities that are here – to have it graphically spoken to the Committee with respect to the continued flow of quality jobs and quality graduates to fill those jobs, the per capita income, the lower cost of living – I think in its totality as it was presented, it had a great influence on the Committee members, it was very impressive and one understands why it is more than simply Oklahoma City, it is Oklahoma.

I thought that the Mayor of Tulsa being there was extraordinary. The support, the editorial today in the Tulsa paper – you can tell I'm a New Yorker – was, I thought, generous and meaningful to our ownership. And, we learned a lot about the economy of the state of Oklahoma and its demographic and a little bit about its geography. And I'm not sure I quite believe that there's never been a traffic jam between Tulsa and Oklahoma City so that you can always make it in 89 minutes, but that's me, and I'm a skeptical New Yorker, but we learned a lot about that. And there was a fair amount of discussion on DMA's and standard market definitions and the proximity and the like. It was a pretty full explication and pretty much a tour de force on behalf of Oklahoma that I'd say impressed the members of the Committee greatly.

Q. Was there any discussion in this ownership committee about the prospect of once again for the third time in seven years moving a franchise from a larger market to a smaller market; those two previous moves, there's questions now about the viability long term of those franchises in Memphis and in New Orleans. Was there any talk about this concern with downsizing with these franchises?

COMMISSIONER DAVID STERN: You know, I think there was a discussion which indicated that the Board is familiar with the issue, but they focused on the likelihood of success of the Sonics in Oklahoma City; and really, in Oklahoma, because it really involved discussion about Tulsa, as well. And the judgment was that the prospect of continued further losses in Seattle without an adequate arena really rendered that discussion with no good answer other than the movement of the team to Oklahoma at this point.

Q. Commissioner, beyond the Ford Center improvements, what was it really that convinced the Board that Oklahoma City is a legitimate NBA market?

COMMISSIONER DAVID STERN: Well, it was a very long presentation that the committee received in Oklahoma City. But they were greatly impressed with the turnout of the present and two former mayors, the mayor of Tulsa, the present Governor and the previous Governor; the heads or representatives of all of the universities; all of the energy industry; the aviation industry; of course the community itself, the explanations about the depth of the market; and even a little bit of learning about if you drive fast in Oklahoma, and most people apparently do, how close Tulsa is and how many citizens of Tulsa will consider the team to be, and did consider the Hornets when they were there, to be a state franchise.

So there was enormous enthusiasm from that perspective, and sort of an outpouring of corporate, government and private support, and educational support, and we got a pretty good education as to the aviation industry, the education industry, aerospace, not to mention energy.

And I think that there was a lot of time spent in the presentation to the committee when they were in Oklahoma City that Oklahoma City is not simply thriving because of only the energy industry, but that it's much deeper than that.



Q. You've mentioned a number of times the importance of Tulsa's buy in to this plan to bring the NBA to Oklahoma City. Based on that, would you have a preference would you like to see this team be called Oklahoma City or Oklahoma? Does it matter to you?

COMMISSIONER DAVID STERN: I'm going to leave that to the politics of Oklahoma. I would guess that the current group would be under significant incentive and pressure to make it an Oklahoma franchise, and that would be a good thing.

But I wouldn't want to put any undue pressure on the ownership group. Although, there was a lot of discussion about the market size of Tulsa; its accessibility to Oklahoma City, and its support of many events in Oklahoma City, and the mayor was there to speak in favor of the application.

So there was some discussion in our meeting about what the actual size of the market is, whether it's simply the Oklahoma City market, or whether you add the additional numbers from Tulsa and it's suburbs, you really see a much larger market than just the Oklahoma City market. [/b]

[waterboy]

I can be dense but if 50% of my post makes sense, well, I'm ahead of Shadows.

Take Minnesota. Minneapolis and StPaul are merely separated by a river. Wouldn't have made sense to call a team the St.Paul Vikings or the Minneapolis Vikings when the largest metro in the state is two contiguous cities. Duluth isn't big enough and thats about all for the whole state. Besides, like Tulsa, St.Paul is not a positive brand. So, Minnesota Vikings makes sense. No negatives in that region for Minnesota. We're 90 miles away physically and a million miles away psychologically (or psychographically if you like). And Oklahoma is not as good a brand name as Oklahoma City.

Florida is one long chain of metros from its tip up to Washington D.C. isn't it? They can go either way with a city name or a state name. Still makes sense to say Miami Dolphins or Florida Marlins and since every city there seems to have its own identity a state name can work.

I haven't read Stern's remarks but it seems like he is trying to bring a dog and a cat together in social harmony because he fears Tulsan's really are petty snobs who won't drive the 90 miles to see professional sports. Or at least being some sort of statesman. IMO he is wrong. Sports enthusiasts in a professional sports deprived market like ours will overlook the animosity of Tulsa boosters and follow the team. The sportscasters will be just as excited as if it carried the state name but it will have greater impact as OKC Sonics than Oklahoma Sonics. Too close to Oklahoma Sooners.

I have commented many times that I abhor using any tax dollars to support wealthy team owners who don't need the help and price their product so high that I can't justify going. But I also am pragmatic enough to know that we use tax dollars to entice other businesses AND this will happen whether we like it or not. We should use the opportunity to snag some games and tie in with the marketing.

Does that make sense?

[Renaissance]

I think everyone understands the motivations behind OKC wanting the team to be called the Oklahoma City _______s.  But this was pitched as a unified effort, and statewide tax money is going in.  I think Tulsans were just about ready to set aside their rivalry feelings and get on board, given Stern's extensive comments.  

But then Cornett goes and shows us that all of that was simply a bait and switch by OKC to ensure that they got what they wanted.  This will be an OKC franchise for the people of OKC.  And they can have it.  Hopefully the Ford Center stays full, or Seattle may come calling in five years.

[cannon_fodder]

I think I see what you are saying, just not sure if I agree.  I see lots of overlap with your statement in those regards and Tulsa/OKC, especially as we were sold to the NBA.  Maybe I'm just so frustrated with the whole issue my brain has given up.  [xx(]

BUT... we agree on the fact that subsidies to the NBA are stupid.  And I agree that if this goes down Tulsa should do what we can to bennefit.  It just seems unlikely that we will recover our investment in this matter.

[perspicuity85]

Again:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3353270
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/8049250?MSNHPHMA

"Stern suggested that calling the moved club Oklahoma, instead of Oklahoma City, might be desirable because it reflects the importance of other parts of the state such as Tulsa in the franchise's viability."

Who knows more about NBA marketing?  David Stern or some local yokel OKC mayor?  Ignoring the commissioner on this one would be a mistake.  I understand why OKC would want the team to be called "OKC" instead of "Oklahoma;" they want to be seen as the diamond in the rough.  In the land of perception, they want to be the oasis in the middle of the dust bowl.  OKC knows Oklahoma has a negative perception, and wants to rise above it by utilizing its own brand equity.  Surely Tulsa would do the same thing.  BUT, the fact remains that OKC is a small market, and actually needs the Tulsa MSA, as well as the rest of the state to be viable.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by perspicuity85

Again:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3353270
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/8049250?MSNHPHMA

"Stern suggested that calling the moved club Oklahoma, instead of Oklahoma City, might be desirable because it reflects the importance of other parts of the state such as Tulsa in the franchise's viability."

Who knows more about NBA marketing?  David Stern or some local yokel OKC mayor?  Ignoring the commissioner on this one would be a mistake.  I understand why OKC would want the team to be called "OKC" instead of "Oklahoma;" they want to be seen as the diamond in the rough.  In the land of perception, they want to be the oasis in the middle of the dust bowl.  OKC knows Oklahoma has a negative perception, and wants to rise above it by utilizing its own brand equity.  Surely Tulsa would do the same thing.  BUT, the fact remains that OKC is a small market, and actually needs the Tulsa MSA, as well as the rest of the state to be viable.

That's what I'm saying. And they will get the rest of the state. The memory of being slighted will fade as people realize this is a chance to visit a pro team within a two hour driving time. Our memories of being shafted for tax dollars will linger but sports fanatics won't even care about a perceived slight.

I should say that I don't care what they name the team but I do understand the motivations. Stern may be a genius marketer but not an infallible one. Also note, OKC drew 12000-17000 for the Hornets I think. More than what Seattle draws for the Sonics.

[waterboy]

Pfox-I will admit to not keeping up with local news lately. What leadership and support did Tulsa provide in this Sonics move? They sure kept it on the downlow.