Tulsa tax payers to fund Hornets

[DamTulsa]

I don't mind the hazing... it's expected being the new guy.  Thanks for the warm welcome (not sure I received one)

To answer all of the questions:

I did post the entire article, didn't leave anything out... my first post did so.  The second post were only highlights supporting my opinion.

The Tulsa Whirled article is a different article... it was written by their staffers and not the AP unbiased article that quoted Taylor's unfavorable comments from this Tulsan's perspective.

You're right... the issue of games in Tulsa hasn't been settled and there certainly could be a behind the scenes deal being worked, but it doesn't appear so from the comments.  I think it's more likely that Taylor is just in bed with Cornet since they are part of the elite OKC democrat crowd and she wants their support in the future for her personal agenda and not anything that benefits Tulsa.

I guess the whole point I was trying to make is the same one Floyd so eloquently put forth... the behavior of Taylor, her comments and actions do not appear to be in defense or to the benefit of Tulsans.

OH... and I don't hate OKC, but I do hate paying for their economic development.  We have our own issues here and OKC sure as he|| won't be signing up to pay for them.

[TURobY]

quote:Originally posted by DamTulsa

I think it's more likely that Taylor is just in bed with Cornet since they are part of the elite OKC democrat crowd and she wants their support in the future for her personal agenda and not anything that benefits Tulsa.

In other words:

"I can't drum up any damning evidence, so I will say that she part of the 'elite', thereby validating my argument."

[edit]
Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I'm so sick of the "ruling oligarchy" argument being used for everything.
[/edit]

[DamTulsa]

TUROBY,

I gave my opinion of that situation based on the behavior, comments and facts of the situation that I not only referenced, but are clearly known.

Do you and your self-rightous mouth have an opinion of the situation or just an opinion of my opinion?

[TURobY]

quote:Originally posted by DamTulsa


TUROBY,

I gave my opinion of that situation based on the behavior, comments and facts of the situation that I not only referenced, but are clearly known.

Do you and your self-rightous mouth have an opinion of the situation or just an opinion of my opinion?

I've already expressed my opinion on the situation, and readily admitted that I am waiting for further information regarding the location of games being played.

I'm sorry if you feel like I'm attacking you, but the "elite" argument is old and tired, and serves as a mostly unfounded insult. You've read this forum before, you should know that...

[JoeMommaBlake]

So this whole thing just got approved by the NBA owners about a week ago, right? Maybe 10 days?

Was Kathy supposed to hop on the phone to OKC as soon as Stern stepped down from the podium and start demanding that we get to share? Looks to me like she's playing this thing diplomatically.
She's been known to work behind the scenes before...remember that snakey move to negotiate with the Drillers exclusively? Remember the other one where the city bought that 1 Technology building almost without anybody knowing about it? Say what you will about her, the girl's got skills.

Give this thing some time. It'll play out.

From a strictly business sense, it's dumb not to name the team the Oklahoma whatevers... As the article stated, there is a long standing rivalry between Tulsa and OKC and as silly as it may sound, the inclusion of the word "city" on any of the team merchandise makes it virtually unsellable in Tulsa. But hey, it is what it is. I won't buy the shirt, but I may go to a game or two...and I'd definitely go if it was here. Regardless, I'm glad they're coming.

As for predicting how the team will do...It's going to be hard to attract free agents to Oklahoma. Winning will help, but the team's got some hills to climb. I really hope this thing works out.

Even if Tulsa doesn't get some love out of the gate, as soon as ticket sales start to decline, the tone will change....and maybe even the name.

The Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim have changed the "location" part of their name over and over again in an effort to appeal to a broader fan base.

quote: from wikipedia: The team has gone through several name changes in their history, first changing to the California Angels in 1965 to emphasize their status as the only AL team in California. When the Disney Company took control in 1997, they extensively renovated Angel Stadium on the condition that both the stadium's name and the team's name contain the word "Anaheim". Disney was hoping to make Anaheim, the home of Disneyland, a major tourist destination and thus the team became the Anaheim Angels.

In 2005, new owner Arte Moreno wanted to include "Los Angeles" in the team's name, in order to better tap into the Los Angeles media market, the second largest in the country. In compliance with the terms of its lease with the city of Anaheim, which stipulated the team name must contain "Anaheim", the team changed its name to the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim. Hotly disputed when initially announced, the change was eventually upheld in court and still stands today, though the team usually refers to itself as simply the Angels in its home media market.

So see? They can change their name whenever the mood strikes them...How does the Tulsa Twisters of Oklahoma City sound?

I know, ridiculous.

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by JoeMommaBlake

So this whole thing just got approved by the NBA owners about a week ago, right? Maybe 10 days?

Was Kathy supposed to hop on the phone to OKC as soon as Stern stepped down from the podium and start demanding that we get to share? Looks to me like she's playing this thing diplomatically.

If you read the articles, you'll see she was already there.  Which is fine--I don't have a problem with our mayor lending a helping hand to other cities.

Then I read how Mick Cornett immediately insisted that the name of the team would be OKC.  He wasn't diplomatic; he was petty.

Did you read the articles?  Inclusion of Tulsa seemed to be the main way the owners and Stern rationlized their vote!  

And yet, once the deal is done, Tulsa doesn't get thrown a single bone.  Don't kid yourself--OKC does not want to share.  Whether they will is another question.  But they're being b@stards, and I don't like seeing our mayor play nice with b@stards who are using Tulsa's goodwill for their own benefit.

We have a right to be pissed.  As of this moment, OKC is insisting that the team name will be Oklahoma City.  And there has been precisely ZERO suggestion, other than Mayor Taylor's response to a question posed by a Seattle report, that the Sonics will ever play a single game there.  And no indication besides glass-one-third-full speculation to the contrary.  

This "oh they could play here" and "oh they could change their name" stuff means nothing compared to our tax dollars and our mayor's kowtowing.  Until I see something coming from OKC besides the middle finger, I don't think we should cooperate with their grand ego-stroking schemes.

And one more thing: If Tulsa DOES end up getting games, or the name DOES end up being Oklahoma, I won't take back what I'm saying here.  On the contrary, I will credit the power of b!tching and moaning by the average citzen on a forum that local media read regularly to get ledes and scoops.  It got the Drillers to stay, and maybe it could get Tulsa a piece of the Sonics action.

[JoeMommaBlake]

I agree about Mick Cornett...

Next time we have an issue with KT, maybe we should just be thankful we don't have that clown.

I'm not a politician (for obvious reasons), but don't you think publicly engaging the guy who just took a hard stance about the team's name could be a mistake?

Who wants to step up to the a-hole in the room and challenge him in front of everybody? You'll just get a public fight. Sometimes it's best to walk over smiling, put your arm around him and walk him outside while whispering in his ear.

Kathy Taylor basically did this...but she drove over on the turnpike instead of walking.

I understand the impassioned responses here. I think we're all passionate about it. I'm just saying that we should let it play out a bit.

It's their new toy. Their big, rich citizen fought for it, then paid for it, their city passed the tax to build the thing, their city supported the Hornets so well when they were in town...They don't want their thunder stolen and I understand. This state tax came too late in the game for Tulsa to get to hold any real, public claim to anything to do with the team. Does it suck? Yes.

From here on, the deals are best done privately so as not to incite angry message boarders in OKC.

[Renaissance]

You are right.  Maybe that's why I'm not mayor--but I still would not have been inclined to support Cornett/Bennett's efforts at all without some sort of assurances of games played in Tulsa.  

Over on OKCTalk, they are discussing the same issues here: http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-area-talk/12683-calling-team-oklahoma-city.html

One of their posters (Doug Loudenbeck, who apparently believes Tulsa has no stake whatsoever in the team) took a look at the Ford Center lease and found this:  



So there's legal space there for Tulsa to pull two regular season games.  We'll see if it happens.

Read that whole thread, though, to get an idea of the attitude of OKCers in general towards our fair city and their gains relative to it.  Then you'll start to realize why I'm so fiery about this--Tulsans are buying into the "Major League State" rhetoric, but OKCers really mean "Major League City with nice quiet supportive neighbor-suburbs up the turnpike."

[cannon_fodder]

2 Tulsa games does not equal $2,000,000 for Tulsa. We still lose.

Clearly I'm more upset on the state tax issue than being slighted by OKC.  It's their team, call it what you want and have it play where you please.  Just don't ask me to pay for it!

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by twizzler

quote:Just don't ask me to pay for it!

How much are you really paying?

That shouldn't be relevant. Let's say $.50. They just reached into my pocket uninvited and stole my gum money. But not just mine. They are asking for money that was to go to the entire state. Perhaps once that sinks in to the rural legislators they will refuse to pass this bill.

I don't care so much about the name, but there should be something in this for the rest of us besides a smile, a wink and a toll fee.

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by twizzler

quote:Just don't ask me to pay for it!

How much are you really paying?

$60,000,000 overall.  So about $20 per Oklahoman.  Family of three.  I'm paying $60.

I'm paying $60 for something I don't want in a place I don't live for a purpose I don't agree with.  Worse still, there are nearly 300,000 families in the Tulsa metro area paying that $60 too.  Collectively we are paying about $18,000,000.00.

I can think of better uses in my community for $18,000,000.00 than sending it to an NBA franchise in another community:

Overlay 720 miles of Tulsa roads

Refit and resurface 4 "major" bridges

Higher 45 new teachers in perpetuity (interest of off 18mil would pay for them)

30 new cops.

30% of a downtown baseball stadium.

A couple more top notch river park developments (like announced QT park).

Cover all costs of the ice storm clean up.

Purchasing the private portion of Turkey Mountain as well as other parkland in the city.

Business Incentives for Tulsa start up companies (180 $100,000 grants)

$18 million worth of city beautification.
- - -

I can think of plenty I'd rather do with $18mil than give it to the NBA.  I can think of plenty I'd rather do with $60 than give it to the NBA (many TU, ORU, Drillers, or Tallons games - for instance).  In fact, I'd rather throw $60 worth of dollar bills in the air at the mall just to see what happens - than give it to the NBA.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:Originally posted by twizzler

quote:Just don't ask me to pay for it!

How much are you really paying?

$60,000,000 overall.  So about $20 per Oklahoman.  Family of three.  I'm paying $60.

I'm paying $60 for something I don't want in a place I don't live for a purpose I don't agree with.  Worse still, there are nearly 300,000 families in the Tulsa metro area paying that $60 too.  Collectively we are paying about $18,000,000.00.

I can think of better uses in my community for $18,000,000.00 than sending it to an NBA franchise in another community:

Overlay 720 miles of Tulsa roads

Refit and resurface 4 "major" bridges

Higher 45 new teachers in perpetuity (interest of off 18mil would pay for them)

30 new cops.

30% of a downtown baseball stadium.

A couple more top notch river park developments (like announced QT park).

Cover all costs of the ice storm clean up.

Purchasing the private portion of Turkey Mountain as well as other parkland in the city.

Business Incentives for Tulsa start up companies (180 $100,000 grants)

$18 million worth of city beautification.
- - -

I can think of plenty I'd rather do with $18mil than give it to the NBA.  I can think of plenty I'd rather do with $60 than give it to the NBA (many TU, ORU, Drillers, or Tallons games - for instance).  In fact, I'd rather throw $60 worth of dollar bills in the air at the mall just to see what happens - than give it to the NBA.

Go back to my post on average income and since Oklahoma is a poor state and Tulsa is not you can likely double Tulsa's contribution to Oklahoma City's NBA team.

[cannon_fodder]

I thought of that swake, by $18mil was enough to make my point.

And "higher" = "hire."  See why we need more teachers.  [}:)]

[DamTulsa]

quote: Clearly I'm more upset on the state tax issue than being slighted by OKC. It's their team, call it what you want and have it play where you please. Just don't ask me to pay for it!

Well said... same for the detailed alternate uses for Tulsa's tax $ that could be otherwise spent.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by DamTulsa



You're right... the issue of games in Tulsa hasn't been settled and there certainly could be a behind the scenes deal being worked, but it doesn't appear so from the comments.  I think it's more likely that Taylor is just in bed with Cornet since they are part of the elite OKC democrat crowd and she wants their support in the future for her personal agenda and not anything that benefits Tulsa.

Elite OKC democrat crowd???

Mayor Mick (Cornett) is a former OKC sportscaster and a lifelong Republican.  62% of his city's voters just passed $121.6 mil in arena upgrades as part of MAPS III in March.  It makes ZERO sense for him to recommend the team take "City" out of its name to satisfy a buncha "anti-any-tax" "state-of-Sequoyah" yokels/whiners/sore losers in Tulsa... his city just passed an extension of MAPS taxes primarily to seal the deal for the Sonics to come to OKC...

http://www.maps3.org/q_and_a.html

BTW, OKC hasn't had a Democrat in the mayor's office since 1987 (Andy Coats).

Ron Norick -- April 14, 1987 - April 9, 1999  
Kirk Humphreys -- April 9, 1999 - November 3, 2003
Guy Liebmann November 3, 2003 - March 2, 2004
Mick Cornett March 2, 2004 - Present