How poor a city is Tulsa?

[shadows]

CF Quoted: Tulsa average: $44,321, for 383,000 people. For a total income of about $17,000,000,000.00.

I guess one can come up with any figure they need on this forum.

I have a problem with the 383,321 total jobs which includes workers from surrounding towns and counties and the figure, counting everything except the dogs and cats, is estimated as about the total population of Tulsa.   To bring us up to standard why shouldn't we set the minimum wage in Tulsa at $190 per hour?

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by shadows

CF Quoted: Tulsa average: $44,321, for 383,000 people. For a total income of about $17,000,000,000.00.

I guess one can come up with any figure they need on this forum.

I have a problem with the 383,321 total jobs which includes workers from surrounding towns and counties and the figure, counting everything except the dogs and cats, is estimated as about the total population of Tulsa.   To bring us up to standard why shouldn't we set the minimum wage in Tulsa at $190 per hour?

As it is wrote in the goodish books, as it shall be, these of days of yore this epoch it seems the disenfranchised of McDonalds that any learner of yore could string words across a page and call it meaninglessful.

No harmed for verbs et nouns to noth agreement in fight across the yoke of impressments!

Numbers, Fridays at 9 on CBS, of the folk that readeth yon keystroked find muck! Did Solomon weep at may being?

[TUalum0982]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Wrinkle:

How many people in Tulsa EARNED $1,000,000 last year?  These are earnings figures, NOT net worth figures.  Only .03% of Americans earn more than $1,000,000 a year.  Tulsa has lots of old money millionaires, but I doubt we have more than our share of million dollar earners (2 TU coaches, some BOk execs, Williams, OneOK, HP, St. Francis Probably, Warran, Case, Clark Brewster on some years, Nordam, Samson and probably a nice handful of others that I am leaving out).

But lets pretend there are 400 Tulsans that made more than $1mil.  Nearly twice the national average of million dollar earners.  That's $400,000,000 in total income (you can argue that some out make more than $1mil, but we doubled the actual number so lets run with it).  

Tulsa average: $44,321, for 383,000 people. For a total income of about $17,000,000,000.00.

So to have those 400 people account for a 10% raise they would each need to have a 425% increase.  From $1mil apiece to $4.25 million each.

Kaiser is a California resident technically, I don't think his wages would count.  Even if they would, his "net worth" is tied to BOk and other stock holdings.  Going from a $100 millionaire to a Billionaire in stock holdings does not count as earnings.  I'm sure he did well, but it's not like $1Billion is added to the equation.

And where do your numbers come from?  22.56 "average" wage earners at $44,321 = $1,000,000 on the nose.  A 10% increase to either side equals the same amount.   Where did you come up with the 5000 person number?  An average Tulsa block has $1,000,000 in income, you'll have to explain that one.

And even if these numbers take into account benefits, it has no effect at all.  NONE.  These are comparison numbers.  If you are looking to relocate wouldn't you want the entire picture?  When we compare earnings between cities the most holistic approach would be best.  Since San Fran, Portland and Tulsa are all reported with these figures, it has no impact on the comparison.
- - -

So yeah.  The numbers are an "average" and subject to the regular "average" conditions. But when there are nearly 400,000 people involved in getting the numbers and 22 of them are enough to offset the anomalies you suggest; it would seem their impact would be minimal compared to the entire heard.

$17,000,000,000.00 in income for Tulsa.  The numbers overwhelm the few very wealthy.

Chet Cadieux with Quiktrip or Tom Kivisto of Semgroup both come to mind. Both make well over a million dollars a year.  Quiktrip has revenues of over 8 billion a year and profits of 90 million if I remember correctly.   Also can't leave out the mayor's husband, Bill Lobeck makes over a million a year.  I would also probably throw in the Hardesty family as well, between their foundation and the FBO they operate (US Aviation at TIA).

[we vs us]

I'd love to know more about that average . . . specifically the high, the low, the mean, and percentage of those above or below.  Because I think what's so head-scratchy about Swake's numbers is that Tulsa just doesn't seem like the rich city that the numbers imply.  It may be true statistically, but it doesn't particularly feel that way.  

Of course, just MHO.

[Wrinkle]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle


Tulsa is among the tops in Per Capita Millionaires in the nation, once in 1930 being on top of the list, and as recently as 1970 or so being in the top three.

Source, please?

And citing information from nearly 40 years ago doesn't have much relevance to now.

So, Joe Kennedy's money had no effect on the current Kennedy family/foundation wealth?

Perhaps George Kaiser's father had nothing to do with his economic posture today either.

[Wrinkle]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Wrinkle:

How many people in Tulsa EARNED $1,000,000 last year?  These are earnings figures, NOT net worth figures.  Only .03% of Americans earn more than $1,000,000 a year.  Tulsa has lots of old money millionaires, but I doubt we have more than our share of million dollar earners (2 TU coaches, some BOk execs, Williams, OneOK, HP, St. Francis Probably, Warran, Case, Clark Brewster on some years, Nordam, Samson and probably a nice handful of others that I am leaving out).

But lets pretend there are 400 Tulsans that made more than $1mil.  Nearly twice the national average of million dollar earners.  That's $400,000,000 in total income (you can argue that some out make more than $1mil, but we doubled the actual number so lets run with it).  

Tulsa average: $44,321, for 383,000 people. For a total income of about $17,000,000,000.00.

So to have those 400 people account for a 10% raise they would each need to have a 425% increase.  From $1mil apiece to $4.25 million each.

Kaiser is a California resident technically, I don't think his wages would count.  Even if they would, his "net worth" is tied to BOk and other stock holdings.  Going from a $100 millionaire to a Billionaire in stock holdings does not count as earnings.  I'm sure he did well, but it's not like $1Billion is added to the equation.

And where do your numbers come from?  22.56 "average" wage earners at $44,321 = $1,000,000 on the nose.  A 10% increase to either side equals the same amount.   Where did you come up with the 5000 person number?  An average Tulsa block has $1,000,000 in income, you'll have to explain that one.

And even if these numbers take into account benefits, it has no effect at all.  NONE.  These are comparison numbers.  If you are looking to relocate wouldn't you want the entire picture?  When we compare earnings between cities the most holistic approach would be best.  Since San Fran, Portland and Tulsa are all reported with these figures, it has no impact on the comparison.
- - -

So yeah.  The numbers are an "average" and subject to the regular "average" conditions. But when there are nearly 400,000 people involved in getting the numbers and 22 of them are enough to offset the anomalies you suggest; it would seem their impact would be minimal compared to the entire heard.

$17,000,000,000.00 in income for Tulsa.  The numbers overwhelm the few very wealthy.

quote: How many people in Tulsa EARNED $1,000,000 last year?

I have no idea. I suggested we have a higher per capita ratio of millionaires than most other places. The inuendo being millionaires tend to make more than the average. And, it takes more earners at less than the average to make up that difference. I did see a recent report stating the the 'average' milllionaire in the U.S. makes in the vicinity of $75,000 per year today. And, it takes over 500 'average' earners to make up for one earning $75,000.

Another report stated the U.S. has almost nine million millionaires.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn no one in Tulsa 'made' a billion dollars last year, even Kaiser (though, his Net Worth has doubled in the last 4 or 5 years). I'm sure he made millions, though. As did many other Tulsans.

Of course, it takes a LOT of qualifying to define 'millionaire'. It was assuming Net Worth, including primary residence.

quote: And where do your numbers come from? 22.56 "average" wage earners at $44,321 = $1,000,000 on the nose. A 10% increase to either side equals the same amount. Where did you come up with the 5000 person number? An average Tulsa block has $1,000,000 in income, you'll have to explain that one.

Because using your method, average income is about $85,000.
(That'd be $2,000,000 divided by 22.56 + 1 )

But, you will need to explain your $1million/block theory. For that matter, an 'average' Tulsa block.

quote: And even if these numbers take into account benefits, it has no effect at all. NONE.  

A State of Oklahoma teachers' average pay, we're perpetually told, is about $33,400. How much do you pay for 100% Health Insurance? As a minimum, a single person coverage would run AT LEAST $400/mo, or an additional $4,800/yr, making their income more like $38,200. That's a 14.37% difference. I do wonder if two months' vacation is included as a benefit, however.

How many teachers are there in Tulsa? And, what percentage do they represent of the population?

While those numbers probably aren't enormous, they do affect the average. So, none is not the answer.

As another excercise, we could search the City of Tulsa Payroll listing and see how many of our public servants make in excess of $75,000/year. Several make more than twice that much, including our  Public Works Director, Charles Hardt, who makes over $165,000/year.

It takes over 2,500 'average' folks to make up for him alone.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle
Public Works Director, Charles Hardt, who makes over $165,000/year.

It takes over 2,500 'average' folks to make up for him alone.

You might just want to go on and pull out the old calculator on that.

[sauerkraut]

Yes Tulsa is booming. The Sunday Tulsa paper is full of jobs. I guess it's from the booming oil industry. Tulsa is a good place to live. Many Texas cities are also booming like Austin, D/FW and Houston. Jobs a plenty there. What I like about Texas is they have no income tax and they don't tax food plus the climate is nicer and more mild that that of Oklahoma. Dallas has great weather I used to live there.[]

[rwarn17588]

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle
Public Works Director, Charles Hardt, who makes over $165,000/year.

It takes over 2,500 'average' folks to make up for him alone.

You might just want to go on and pull out the old calculator on that.

Wrinkle, perhaps you ought to use something other than your fingers and LSD to do your math.

Hardt's salary is less than five times the average Tulsan's.

I have no idea where you got your 2,500 figure.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle
Public Works Director, Charles Hardt, who makes over $165,000/year.

It takes over 2,500 'average' folks to make up for him alone.

You might just want to go on and pull out the old calculator on that.

Wrinkle, perhaps you ought to use something other than your fingers and LSD to do your math.

Hardt's salary is less than five times the average Tulsan's.

I have no idea where you got your 2,500 figure.

Classic, RW.  Thanks for the chuckle.

Income comparison is nothing more than pe**s envy anyway.  People lie about both.

[Wrinkle]

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle
Public Works Director, Charles Hardt, who makes over $165,000/year.

It takes over 2,500 'average' folks to make up for him alone.

You might just want to go on and pull out the old calculator on that.

O.K., I see many here have attended TPS at some point.

If one were to take 2,499 average incomes at $44,321 per year, the total would be....Bular, Bular, Bular???  That's right $110,758,179

Add in one person at $165,000/year giving us, $110,923,179.

Now, since we're talking averages, divide that by 2,499 + 1 ( = 2,500).

That gives us an AVERAGE ANNUAL WAGE of $44,369 which is approximately our ACTUAL annual average wage.

Since this number is somewhat higher than the actual annual average wage of $44,321, it would really take more than 2,499 (or even 2,500) average wage earners to make up for one wage of $165,000/year, such as Mr. Hardts, and maintain our actual annual average wage.

Any questions?

[Wrinkle]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle
Public Works Director, Charles Hardt, who makes over $165,000/year.

It takes over 2,500 'average' folks to make up for him alone.

You might just want to go on and pull out the old calculator on that.

Wrinkle, perhaps you ought to use something other than your fingers and LSD to do your math.

Hardt's salary is less than five times the average Tulsan's.

I have no idea where you got your 2,500 figure.

....I believe you.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle
Public Works Director, Charles Hardt, who makes over $165,000/year.

It takes over 2,500 'average' folks to make up for him alone.

You might just want to go on and pull out the old calculator on that.

O.K., I see many here have attended TPS at some point.

If one were to take 2,499 average incomes at $44,321 per year, the total would be....Bular, Bular, Bular???  That's right $110,758,179

Add in one person at $165,000/year giving us, $110,923,179.

Now, since we're talking averages, divide that by 2,499 + 1 ( = 2,500).

That gives us an AVERAGE ANNUAL WAGE of $44,369 which is approximately our ACTUAL annual average wage.

Since this number is somewhat higher than the actual annual average wage of $44,321, it would really take more than 2,499 (or even 2,500) average wage earners to make up for one wage of $165,000/year, such as Mr. Hardts, and maintain our actual annual average wage.

Any questions?

So, 2499 people at an average plus one above the average is more than average if all 2,500 people were at the average?




Smokin!

[rwarn17588]

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

O.K., I see many here have attended TPS at some point.

If one were to take 2,499 average incomes at $44,321 per year, the total would be....Bular, Bular, Bular???  That's right $110,758,179

Add in one person at $165,000/year giving us, $110,923,179.

Now, since we're talking averages, divide that by 2,499 + 1 ( = 2,500).

That gives us an AVERAGE ANNUAL WAGE of $44,369 which is approximately our ACTUAL annual average wage.

Since this number is somewhat higher than the actual annual average wage of $44,321, it would really take more than 2,499 (or even 2,500) average wage earners to make up for one wage of $165,000/year, such as Mr. Hardts, and maintain our actual annual average wage.

Any questions?

Ooooooookay.

(Perhaps my LSD crack wasn't facetious after all.)

I'm not sure what these bizarre calculations and reasoning prove.

Are you advocating firing the Public Works Director to bring the average down? Or that the government should go communist and force Hardt to have the same average wage? []

Somehow, I think Wrinkle should meet with shadows and "Imaginary Federal Budget Deficit" Spoonbill. Addled minds think alike, you see. At least it would be good for a few laughs. [}:)]

[cannon_fodder]

I'll explain my average block comment.  The average Tulsan makes $44,321  $1mil/44321 = 22.56.  So for my block to make $1mil I would have to have 23 average wage earners living on it.  Most blocks have more than 23 wage earners living on them, by definition, most earn average...

Now, what, in the hell, are you talking about?

quote:And, it takes over 500 'average' earners to make up for one earning $75,000.

That would be the "average" person making $150 per year.

Let me break the Million in income thing out for you:

Average Income in Tulsa County: $44,321

$1,000,000/$44,321 = 22.56

So, 22.56 people each earning $44,321 make $1,000,000 per year.

Using your math, $165,000/2500 = average wage.      The average Tulsan makes $66.00 per year.


EXPLAIN YOUR MATH

If I'm not mistaken, you are trying to argue that it takes XYZ number of AVERAGE people to move the income as much as one rich person can.  is that correct?

If so, you are totally ignoring the definition of "average" and doing your best to mock the numbers.  Most people really aren't average.  Some earn $165, some earn zero.  But, on the whole, MOST are near the $44,321 number that is thrown out.

That's what average means.  Of course it would take a crap down of "average" people to effect the "average number" because by definition they have a minimal effect on it.  

Never mind all that, what's your point?  Are you arguing that Tulsa is chuck full of millionaires and everyone else is in the poor house while Portland has a population where everyone earns $40K across the board?  The sad fact is, we have to compare these things by AVERAGES.  

If you have a list of all wager earners by city and what to draw up a statistical comparison on an abnormal curve, I'd love to see it.  Otherwise, lets just try to compare our apples to their apples.