Scuse Me While I Kiss The Sky

[cannon_fodder]

quote:I said
Don't just post some crap-o-article, address my points please.

You fail.

You failed to address most of the issues.

You posted a massive cut and paste article, epic fail..

And you failed to even fully address the issue you chose to cut and paste on.

MORE DIESEL PRODUCTION DOES NOT EQUAL MORE DIESEL POLLUTION IN TULSA.

FAIL.

Honestly, just tell me if you think you are engaging in actual debate and/or raising valid points so I can mock you and move on.  You have posted nothing that links anything involving the Sinclair expansion in Tulsa with increased pollution.  

I even numbered them for you, try to address the issues you yourself raised and I then countered.

[FOTD]

No. You failed to see my point that no matter what the company sez, some will remain skeptics regarding their over all contribution to the betterment of society. They like to paint pretty pictures to obscure the damage they do to lungs and cells through their toxic product.

I know you enjoy the sunsets and that night time glow from all the lights created by these monsterous industries.

[cannon_fodder]

Ok, so your report to my logical and on-topic issues I raise, which came from media reports, company statements, and FERC filings is...

They lied.

So no matter what anyone says on any given topic, without any evidence proof or even a logical statement - you just say "yeah, but they are lying."  What a great world you live in.  Invent your own reality, reject all others and just insist you are correct.

quote:FOTD wrote
Note to self: for future reference, don't attempt to engage Deadheads in intelligent conversation.

Intelligent conversion = "they lied" whenever someone says something logically that you don't like.  

Brilliant!  What a robust and purposeful conversation you started.  "This is crap, I hate it.  Any evidence to the contrary are lies."

Oh yeah, well your a liar and I'm right!  So there!  now I win.

[Gaspar]

Watch out CF.  He's gonna call you a doo-doo-head next.

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

Watch out CF.  He's gonna call you a doo-doo-head next.

Liar.

(I win again!)

[perspicuity85]

Just an observation, but this argument seems to stem from a lot of "what-ifs?"  If the EPA regulations, and air quality metrics are enforced, then this is a good deal for the community.  I've heard all kinds of rumors about Tulsa's oil heyday, back when the oil industries reduced emissions by slipping 20s in back pockets.  I don't know if those rumors are true or not, but I can say that Tulsa's economy is much more diversified today than in past decades.  A diversified economy reduces the political incentive to purposely overlook the environmental violations of a single industry.

Bottom line, this seems like a great deal for the local economy as long as the environmental standards are upheld.  The positive economic impact of this expansion certainly is not worth  permanently damaging RiverParks or the inhibition of future river development.  Here's to hoping Sinclair keeps its nose clean.

[cannon_fodder]

But you see perspicuity, they didn't keep their noses clean.  They were fined $5,000,000 and two executives were each fined $160,000 for violations last year.  Which led to many millions of dollars worth of patch work last summer to get within the current guidelines.

So I agree with your assessment, it appears they are not above the EPA.  And if we are going to try and base everything on "but if they cheat" then everything is bad news.  And since it usually does not come to fruition, it's a pointless exercise.

[FOTD]

Didn't the amount of the fine get reduced from $5 mill?

CF, I did not say don't trust anyone. Just the ones who hide facts. Nice attempt to "bad guy" me. WEEEEESCO!

[cannon_fodder]

I'm not bad guying you, just calling it as I see it.  You have avoided all the issues that you raised and retorted ancillary matters.  When I gave the facts on those you just said "they're lying" as if you knew better than the rest of the world.

That is not discussion, that is throwing out your unfounded opinion as fact.  You have, thus far, not supported anything you originally claimed.  Thus, you fail.

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I'm not bad guying you, just calling it as I see it.  You have avoided all the issues that you raised and retorted ancillary matters.  When I gave the facts on those you just said "they're lying" as if you knew better than the rest of the world.

That is not discussion, that is throwing out your unfounded opinion as fact.  You have, thus far, not supported anything you originally claimed.  Thus, you fail.

Oh. I am sorry. I thought the company was guilty of hiding information from regulators. So, they were fined for polluting the Arkansas and nothing else?

How many times didn't they get caught?

[cannon_fodder]

What does that have to do with the matter at hand?  Again, you are avoiding the very issues that you brought up.  There is no evidence, whatsoever, that indicate the figures and filings they have made to the EPA, the state, the city, the FERC, and their investors are incorrect.

Again, "they are lying" is your argument.

Discuss the issues you raised, counter my facts with your own, don't just invent your own story line and insist upon it.  I have answered your questions, even the off topic ones.  I have done so clearly and to the point.  Why are you avoiding the discussion?

[mrhaskellok]

I think the fallacy FOTD lies in your desire to fault someone who has done wrong forever.  Have you ever lied before?  If so, wouldn't it be safe to say that anyone hiring you would be foolish to consider you?  Or instead do we have to look at the facts before us, weigh the consequences and risks and make the best decision.

   IMHO

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

What does that have to do with the matter at hand?  Again, you are avoiding the very issues that you brought up.  There is no evidence, whatsoever, that indicate the figures and filings they have made to the EPA, the state, the city, the FERC, and their investors are incorrect.

Again, "they are lying" is your argument.

Discuss the issues you raised, counter my facts with your own, don't just invent your own story line and insist upon it.  I have answered your questions, even the off topic ones.  I have done so clearly and to the point.  Why are you avoiding the discussion?

hmmmm......credibility issue?

http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/dcee126c0635d65f852571fc006e9e20/9b69e12f47f3742b85257245005d5fad!OpenDocument

"Sinclair directed employees to limit wastewater discharges with high concentrations of oil and grease to manipulate the result of required bio-testing. During monitoring periods, Sinclair, by way of its employees, reduced flow rates of wastewater discharges to the river, and diverted more heavily contaminated wastewater to holding impoundments, among other means of ensuring that they had passed the tests. "

Villains: Sinclair Tulsa Refining
December 18, 2006

http://www.matternetwork.com/2006/12/villains-sinclair-tulsa-refining.cfm

"Sinclair Tulsa Refining Company and two of its managers have plead guilty to deliberately manipulating wastewater discharges at a Tulsa Refinery so that the company could pass water quality tests.
Harmon Connell and John Kapura, two managers at the company (is a subsidiary of Sinclair Oil), face up to three years in prison after pleading guilty to violating the Clean Water Act. The company will pay a fine of $5.5 million for doctoring the flow of oil and grease into Arkansas River.

According to the EPA, the company redirected its normal discharges in 2002 and 2003 from the river to holding areas so that the company would pass tests to monitor water quality.

Good for the EPA for catching these bad actors and getting them to plea in criminal court. For many companies paying EPA fines are a cost of doing business, and only when officers face jail time will they stop circumventing environmental regulations. Also, if customers pay attention to infractions like these and take their business elsewhere it would send a strong message. "

Just an accident? I doubt that. Wonder when they failed to get caught....my definition of lie differs from yours. You probably don't believe our government lied us into Iraq.

Tried to find this info on Dailykos, Huffington Post, and Think Progressive with no luck. Ha Ha.

[cannon_fodder]

Again, you are back to "they are liars."  

Sinclair lied and got busted by the EPA.  That is an established fact and not a matter of discussion.

You insist upon and ridicule other posters if they bring up ancillary issues or do not address your points.  Yet we are on page 2 of this thread and you haven't addressed the points you raised yet.

Here you go, these are the points you raised and I countered.  Please discuss without just saying "they lie" and/or posting some other person thoughts:

quote:I wrote a few days ago
1. Emissions & Odor will go down.

2. How is they are not spending a billion?


3. The production of more diesel in Tulsa does not equal the use of more diesel in Tulsa.

Coupled with the reduction of emissions from the refinery itself, I can only assume the increase in green space is what will cause worse allergies. You're against more green space? (I have allergies)

4. Not good for economic development?

How is this bad in the long run given the industrial orders, the new jobs, and the reduced emissions?

5. Good for construction companies over the short run. Yep. So what?  Why is that bad?

There are 5 succinct points I used to answer your specific post.  You responded with ancillary issues, which I was kind enough to handle (basic economics).  Since all you have said is "they lied" and harped on that issue over and over.

At best, "they lied" is a poor argument against the first issue raised.  But with a failure to support the notion that the claim has any merit on future endeavors it's reach in that regard is limited.  

If you lack the ability to intelligently discuss this topic, save us the time and just say so.  Otherwise, please defend the positions you raised you started this thread.

[FOTD]

Dear Cannon Fodder,

You don't understand that the lying well runs dry after the first exposure. From then on, the bucket contains tainted information.

Sincerely,

The Truth Teller