The Tulsa Forum by TulsaNow

Anyone have experience dealing with solar power contractors?
Im more up on the tech than I am up on the roof, but just googling for installers is so discouraging when you cant get past some bot that wont let you ask questions without opting-in to something that sounds very spammy.

Filling out the ADT/Sunpro form gets you put on high-rotation robocalls.  Directly emailing them gets you random 'bot responses that just hang on a few keywords:

Congratulations on your new home! It's a very exciting time for you. When a homeowner makes the decision to go solar, not only will they receive great benefits, but you will also add value to your home. Our consultants are well-trained and equipped to provide you with all the necessary details. They build a customized solar system for your home using the square footage of your roof, the amount of sun exposure your roof receives, your kilowatt usage on your electric bill, and other determining factors. The consultants are able to provide you with the most accurate quote once your home is completed. We would love to provide you with information at that time.

Thank you,

Courtney Burris
Retention Agent
(o) 866.450.1012
goadtsolar.com

...and of course, no link to the consultants or any clue why they think my home is new.  Note that "Courtney" is "save team" that typically tries to keep customers from leaving.  I have no idea if Sunpro was this bad before ADT.

Quote from: patric on April 19, 2022, 11:47:23 AM
Filling out the ADT/Sunpro form gets you put on high-rotation robocalls.  Directly emailing them gets you random 'bot responses that just hang on a few keywords:

Congratulations on your new home! It's a very exciting time for you. When a homeowner makes the decision to go solar, not only will they receive great benefits, but you will also add value to your home. Our consultants are well-trained and equipped to provide you with all the necessary details. They build a customized solar system for your home using the square footage of your roof, the amount of sun exposure your roof receives, your kilowatt usage on your electric bill, and other determining factors. The consultants are able to provide you with the most accurate quote once your home is completed. We would love to provide you with information at that time.

Thank you,

Courtney Burris
Retention Agent
(o) 866.450.1012
goadtsolar.com

...and of course, no link to the consultants or any clue why they think my home is new.  Note that "Courtney" is "save team" that typically tries to keep customers from leaving.  I have no idea if Sunpro was this bad before ADT.

Ugh. ADT.

I have gotten offers from Sunpro, Shine Solar, and have a call with Radical in an hour. For our house, it seems like we are really counting on the cost to borrow money being less than the costs of energy. Its about even over the 25 year lifespan, just depends on increases for PSO.

www.shinesolar.com
https://radicalsolarenergy.com/

Quote from: swake on April 19, 2022, 01:04:23 PM

Ugh. ADT.

Yeah. First thing that came to mind is what at&t did to DirecTV, or Generator Supercenter gobbling up all the Generac installers.
It was serendipity that the later gave me the runaround because I later discovered that Generac standby generators produced terrible power with noise spikes and drifting frequency.  Thats the main reason Im only looking at inverter-based power backup.

Great links buffalodan, im going to try to get bids from them, too, but Im tending to favor the ones more local.

Quote from: patric on April 19, 2022, 05:34:07 PM
I later discovered that Generac standby generators produced terrible power with noise spikes and drifting frequency.  Thats the main reason Im only looking at inverter-based power backup.

Thanks.  I've been thinking for quite a while about whole house generator/back-up. I am on the end of a feeder and am frequently without power when folks across the street are fine.  I don't think I want to go solar yet.  $15 solar.  Haha, with taxes the 1 KWH consumption at my hangar is $22/mo.  Is there a good IC engine on natural gas option?  I laugh at the TV ads that say I could save $thousands/year.  Even in the summer, my PSO bill is typically near $200. (Well, it was before the price of gas got crazy.)  Same for thermal windows that could save me thousands when they are on sale for $hundreds off list price.

Quote from: Red Arrow on April 19, 2022, 10:56:42 PM
Thanks.  I've been thinking for quite a while about whole house generator/back-up. I am on the end of a feeder and am frequently without power when folks across the street are fine.  I don't think I want to go solar yet.  $15 solar.  Haha, with taxes the 1 KWH consumption at my hangar is $22/mo.  Is there a good IC engine on natural gas option?  I laugh at the TV ads that say I could save $thousands/year.  Even in the summer, my PSO bill is typically near $200. (Well, it was before the price of gas got crazy.)  Same for thermal windows that could save me thousands when they are on sale for $hundreds off list price.

Are you on the Average Payment Plan with PSO? Our house, which is uninsulated as hell only rolls about $120 on the APP. Our shop which is 3-phase barely hits over $200 and that's with 2 x 5 ton AC units.

Quote from: Red Arrow on April 19, 2022, 10:56:42 PM
Thanks.  I've been thinking for quite a while about whole house generator/back-up. I am on the end of a feeder and am frequently without power when folks across the street are fine.  I don't think I want to go solar yet.  $15 solar.  Haha, with taxes the 1 KWH consumption at my hangar is $22/mo.  Is there a good IC engine on natural gas option?  I laugh at the TV ads that say I could save $thousands/year.  Even in the summer, my PSO bill is typically near $200. (Well, it was before the price of gas got crazy.)  Same for thermal windows that could save me thousands when they are on sale for $hundreds off list price.

You want your backup power to come from an inverter rather than an alternator if you want any sort of stability.  That rules out the Generac backups that run off of NG.
Generac actually uses drifting frequency as a "feature" to signal their "Smart Management Modules" to shed heavy loads like HVAC when under generator power (which has the added benefit of sparing the HVAC's computer from the dirty generator power).

State-of-the-art solar is also built on Inverters (some are actually located at the solar panels) but you can find Inverter generators that will run off of different fuels like propane.  Why propane when NG is so plentiful in Oklahoma?
The winter storm two February's ago when we had rolling blackouts in Tulsa because Texas ran its electric grid into the ground was a sort of a warning flag not only for our electric supply but the reliability of NG as well.

You can get NG conversion kits for many fossil-fuel generators if you want to stick with that, but consider LPG for this reason:  https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/17/22287130/texas-natural-gas-production-power-outages-frozen

This example:  https://www.lowes.com/pd/DuroMax-9000-Watt-459cc-Dual-Fuel-Digital-Inverter-Hybrid-Portable-Generator/5001851473 will run your 240V stuff but if you only need 120V the price comes down considerably.

Quote from: tulsabug on April 20, 2022, 08:36:25 AM
Are you on the Average Payment Plan with PSO? Our house, which is uninsulated as hell only rolls about $120 on the APP. Our shop which is 3-phase barely hits over $200 and that's with 2 x 5 ton AC units.

I'm not on the Average Payment Plan.  I looked at PSO's offer a few years ago and it cost more for the year to be on the APP.  No surprise there.  My average for the last 12 bills is $120.  The kicker is that my April bill for last year was $88.  This year it was $105 and I actually used a few less KWH this year. 

Our average bill was $70 or so. We have a pretty efficient house and don't use a ton of electricity. But were quoted $4/KW of installed solar panels, so I think we will go with it. I would give radical and shine solar a call. They are two pretty different companies. Radical is much smaller and not as polished, whereas shine solar had fun web apps and all that jazz.

Quote from: patric on April 20, 2022, 10:24:15 AM
You want your backup power to come from an inverter rather than an alternator if you want any sort of stability.  That rules out the Generac backups that run off of NG.
Generac actually uses drifting frequency as a "feature" to signal their "Smart Management Modules" to shed heavy loads like HVAC when under generator power (which has the added benefit of sparing the HVAC's computer from the dirty generator power).

State-of-the-art solar is also built on Inverters (some are actually located at the solar panels) but you can find Inverter generators that will run off of different fuels like propane.  Why propane when NG is so plentiful in Oklahoma?
The winter storm two February's ago when we had rolling blackouts in Tulsa because Texas ran its electric grid into the ground was a sort of a warning flag not only for our electric supply but the reliability of NG as well.

This example:  https://www.lowes.com/pd/DuroMax-9000-Watt-459cc-Dual-Fuel-Digital-Inverter-Hybrid-Portable-Generator/5001851473 will run your 240V stuff but if you only need 120V the price comes down considerably.

Inverter technology is a good idea.

I have a gasoline powered emergency generator.  About 5500 running watts, I think. (10 HP motor) It runs the refrigerators, freezer, water well and a small TV.  I run the TV through a computer UPS which is plugged into the generator.  I don't want to run the furnace from it due the the computer stuff in the heater.

I am thinking of whole house backup with automatic transfer switch etc.  The location of the circuit breaker panel is not convenient for selective circuit backup. The transfer switch would have to be outside the house by the electric meter.  As far as natural gas outages, one of the goals for the backup is to have heat in the winter.  I have NG heat.  Air conditioner is 240V.  Stove, cooking oven, clothes dryer, water heater are NG.

I would probably already have the whole house system except that electricity is at one end of the house and NG is about 2/3 of the way toward the other end.  I would like to put the BU gen near the NG service and AC outside unit as it's away from the living areas.  Utility room and garage windows might make staying away from windows difficult without becoming a lawn mowing obstacle.

Quote from: buffalodan on April 20, 2022, 11:30:08 AM
Our average bill was $70 or so. We have a pretty efficient house and don't use a ton of electricity. But were quoted $4/KW of installed solar panels, so I think we will go with it. I would give radical and shine solar a call. They are two pretty different companies. Radical is much smaller and not as polished, whereas shine solar had fun web apps and all that jazz.

My house was well insulated for when it was built in 1968.  I know the insulation in the attic has settled.  I haven't opened up an outside wall to see what's going on there.  I know my windows are energy wasters but doubt replacements would "pay for themselves" in my lifetime.  Plus, if I sealed up all the air leaks, I would need to modify the HVAC to introduce fresh air to the system.

Quote from: Red Arrow on April 20, 2022, 12:23:51 PM
Inverter technology is a good idea.

I have a gasoline powered emergency generator.  About 5500 running watts, I think. (10 HP motor) It runs the refrigerators, freezer, water well and a small TV.  I run the TV through a computer UPS which is plugged into the generator.  I don't want to run the furnace from it due the the computer stuff in the heater.

I am thinking of whole house backup with automatic transfer switch etc.  The location of the circuit breaker panel is not convenient for selective circuit backup. The transfer switch would have to be outside the house by the electric meter.  As far as natural gas outages, one of the goals for the backup is to have heat in the winter.  I have NG heat.  Air conditioner is 240V.  Stove, cooking oven, clothes dryer, water heater are NG.

I would probably already have the whole house system except that electricity is at one end of the house and NG is about 2/3 of the way toward the other end.  I would like to put the BU gen near the NG service and AC outside unit as it's away from the living areas.  Utility room and garage windows might make staying away from windows difficult without becoming a lawn mowing obstacle.

When I went a few rounds with the local Generac salesmen, my plan was to have the transfer switch at the electric meter and plumb into the gas line 12 feet away, but the installers wanted to add a thousand dollars of gas line directly to the meter on the other side of the house.  I had read the installers manual online and pointed out that the generator model I was asking for was well within specs for my existing gas, but they insisted on the largest unit they had in case I wanted to run everything in the house at the same time during a blackout.
IMHO, having every light on in the house when the rest of neighborhood is pitch black is more status-symbol than practical.  I can always bake cookies and run the dryer after the storm is over.

A transfer switch at the electric entrance is going to be logical regardless of what you choose to backup your power with, so think of that as your baseline.
As far as furnace, my owners manual specifically warns against generator power due to the spikes and poor THD ratings from alternator-based generators.
Inverters should give you as close to a rock-solid sine wave as you would get from PSO.

Quote from: patric on April 20, 2022, 12:55:39 PM
When I went a few rounds with the local Generac salesmen, my plan was to have the transfer switch at the electric meter and plumb into the gas line 12 feet away, but the installers wanted to add a thousand dollars of gas line directly to the meter on the other side of the house.  I had read the installers manual online and pointed out that the generator model I was asking for was well within specs for my existing gas, but they insisted on the largest unit they had in case I wanted to run everything in the house at the same time during a blackout.
IMHO, having every light on in the house when the rest of neighborhood is pitch black is more status-symbol than practical.  I can always bake cookies and run the dryer after the storm is over.

Sounds like some greedy installers.  Max load on the generator should be handled by selected circuits in the transfer switch if you did that rather than whole house.  In my case, I think the electricians' fee for selected circuits would exceed the increased generator cost to go whole house.  I rarely have everything turned on though.  If I feel the need to "bake cookies", I can use the propane gas grill.

ONG moved the gas meter from the back property line to the house a few years ago.  I asked then about what I would need to do to add a generator.  They said they ran a big enough line to the meter to take care of it.

Quote from: buffalodan on April 20, 2022, 11:30:08 AM
We have a pretty efficient house and don't use a ton of electricity. But were quoted $4/KW of installed solar panels, so I think we will go with it.

Are you sure you got the units (KW) correct?  240V at 100 Amp service is 24,000 VA which is pretty close to 24KW.  (Electrical guys please add power factor or whatever corrections.  It's been a long time since I took Electrical Power Systems at TU.)  I doubt you can get that in solar panels for $4/KW X 24 KW = $96.  What about the batteries so it works at night?

Anyone know if Homeowner's Insurance covers things like hail damage to solar panels?  What are the complications if the shingles need to be replaced due to hail damage?   I'm not really keen on the appearance since the front of my house faces south (the street).

I talked with a Generac representative in Costco today.  They do not have an inverter output large generator, no surprise.  Another customer was also there who agreed that a lot of household things need clean electricity.  He suggested maybe using a Generic to recharge a Battery/Inverter backup system if the power outage exceeded the capability of the batteries.  Interesting thought.  Probably expensive though.

Quote from: Red Arrow on April 22, 2022, 05:28:53 PM
Are you sure you got the units (KW) correct?  240V at 100 Amp service is 24,000 VA which is pretty close to 24KW.  (Electrical guys please add power factor or whatever corrections.  It's been a long time since I took Electrical Power Systems at TU.)  I doubt you can get that in solar panels for $4/KW X 24 KW = $96.  What about the batteries so it works at night?

There are some good arguments for some of the newer battery formulations in terms of safety and capacity. Tesla's batteries are going on a decade now.

https://news.energysage.com/home-battery-comparison/

https://solaroptimum.com/blog/2022/02/22/tesla-powerwall-vs-enphase-battery-a-side-by-side-comparison/

Some thoughts about hail damage here; you can probably skip the "What is hail?" preface...
https://www.engineeringpassion.com/can-hail-damage-solar-panels-homeowner-info/

Quote from: patric on April 23, 2022, 10:47:34 AM
There are some good arguments for some of the newer battery formulations in terms of safety and capacity. Tesla's batteries are going on a decade now.

https://news.energysage.com/home-battery-comparison/

https://solaroptimum.com/blog/2022/02/22/tesla-powerwall-vs-enphase-battery-a-side-by-side-comparison/

Some thoughts about hail damage here; you can probably skip the "What is hail?" preface...
https://www.engineeringpassion.com/can-hail-damage-solar-panels-homeowner-info/

I'm curious how well they'd hold up if Ming the Merciless sends Hot Hail....  ;D

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dg3ZB4KVMAIwpB3.jpg)

Quote from: tulsabug on April 23, 2022, 10:30:08 PM

I'm curious how well they'd hold up if Ming the Merciless sends Hot Hail....  ;D

Or Roland Emmerich

(http://media.forumcinemas.ee/1000/Event_3433/gallery/021d68d6c4.jpg)

Quote from: Red Arrow on April 22, 2022, 05:40:00 PM
Anyone know if Homeowner's Insurance covers things like hail damage to solar panels?  What are the complications if the shingles need to be replaced due to hail damage?   I'm not really keen on the appearance since the front of my house faces south (the street).

We have USAA and they would cover it once we disclose that we have them. I'm unsure about how hard it is to repair shingles around them, but USAA didn't see any issues with us getting solar panels. And same thing, our south slope is street facing.

Quote from: Red Arrow on April 22, 2022, 05:40:00 PM
Anyone know if Homeowner's Insurance covers things like hail damage to solar panels?  What are the complications if the shingles need to be replaced due to hail damage?   I'm not really keen on the appearance since the front of my house faces south (the street).

At some point I will have to balance the geek appeal with the aesthetic as well, and some of the options out there have promise. Not everyone has a square roof.

(https://solartechadvisor.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/triangular-solar-panels.jpg)
https://solartechadvisor.com/triangular-solar-panels/

Beating up on Generac sitting on their laurels some more... until they re-tool with some technology from this century I would count them out.

EDIT:  Tesla is looking like an install date into 2023.   :-(

Quote from: buffalodan on April 19, 2022, 04:29:39 PM
I have gotten offers from Sunpro, Shine Solar, and have a call with Radical in an hour. For our house, it seems like we are really counting on the cost to borrow money being less than the costs of energy. Its about even over the 25 year lifespan, just depends on increases for PSO.

One company I spoke with seemed flabbergasted that I wouldnt want to invest in the extra equipment needed to sell my excess power to PSO for three cents per KW, and almost made it sound as if it were mandatory.
PSO's literature even hinted at require a second meter for that purpose, even though the smart meters we all now use are specifically designed to meter power exported from customers (Above where the meter displays "Delivered" is another indicator for "Received" and PSO can set it to behave a couple different ways, including charging you for the power you send them).

Quote from: patric on April 27, 2022, 01:22:53 PM
(Above where the meter displays "Delivered" is another indicator for "Received" and PSO can set it to behave a couple different ways, including charging you for the power you send them).

What is their rationale for that?  I understand that they are supposed to maintain the infrastructure but at that point, so would you.

Quote from: Red Arrow on April 27, 2022, 02:29:50 PM
What is their rationale for that?  I understand that they are supposed to maintain the infrastructure but at that point, so would you.

See option 3 from the GE manual:

kWh energy measurement can be accumulated in 4 ways:
1. Received only: Only the received energy is accumulated as a positive quantity.
2. Delivered only: Only the delivered energy is accumulated,
3. Delivered + Received: The received and delivered energy are added together,
4. Delivered - Received: The net energy is accumulated.

The regulations for exporting your excess power (net metering) are a cluster, and at least one installer looks like they wont install without it.

A vetoed scheme in Florida we have to watch out for here:

HB 741, allowed public utilities to "impose additional charges to recover lost revenues resulting from residential solar generation that exceeds the public utilities estimate," (an) amount was "speculative and would be borne by all customers."

The bill would have required that solar customers pay all fixed costs of having access to transmission lines and backup energy generation as determined by the Public Service Commission, but the solar customers would not have received any benefits for reducing the utility's electricity demand.

It was ... a defeat for Florida Power & Light, the state's largest electric utility, whose lobbyists wrote the first version of the bill.

Under the proposal, starting in 2024, many homeowners and businesses with rooftop solar would have started receiving fewer financial credits for selling excess energy back to their electric utilities, a practice known as net metering, and utilities could ask state regulators to impose new fees on all solar customers.

Florida is one of 47 states that allow households and businesses that produce power to sell it back to the grid at a set rate. However, those policies are coming under fire as utilities become increasingly concerned about how the growth of distributed solar energy affects their bottom line.

FPL — and legislators who supported the bill — argued that arrangement is unfair to customers who don't generate their own power but continue to pay for the costs of maintaining the grid that rooftop solar customers also use.
But solar advocates countered that all utility customers benefit from the private investment made by homeowners and businesses who install or lease solar on their roofs because the investment alleviates the need for the electric utility to purchase or generate expensive fossil-fuel-generated energy.

FPL has long been one of the largest contributors to legislative Florida political campaigns, but in 2020 it also invested millions into groups with untraceable, anonymous donors that launched attacks on state and local politicians.

According to reporting by the Orlando Sentinel and confirmed by the Miami Herald, FPL executives worked with operatives tied to a series of "dark money" nonprofits, one of which figures prominently in the Miami-Dade state attorney's investigation into a scandal involving a "ghost" state Senate candidate.
Under the scheme, a candidate with no political background was on the ballot as a no-party option in an effort to confuse voters and dilute support for the Democrat in the race, helping Simpson maintain the Republican majority in the state Senate.
https://www.tampabay.com/news/florida-politics/2022/04/27/desantis-vetoes-net-metering-bill-opposed-by-rooftop-solar-proponents/\

EDIT: It seems Oklahoma was one of the first states to pass this:  https://www.climatecentral.org/news/oklahoma-solar-surcharge-bill-becomes-law-17335

ADT (Sunpro Solar) was supposed to come and give an estimate.  The sent this puzzling message instead:

I regret to inform you that we are no longer offering services for backup batteries. We sincerely apologize for the inconvenience.

Thank you,

Courtney Burris
Retention Agent
(o) 866.450.1012
goadtsolar.com


EDIT to add... I called again and spoke to someone else who appeared surprised at the response, and got an email confirmation of a new appointment for today. When no one showed up again I asked about our missed appointment and got the same canned response from Courtney above.
It seems ADT was under the impression I only wanted a battery, so some genius kept cancelling my appointments and not notifying me of that.

Almost ready to sign a contract for an Enphase solar setup when I found a horrendous security flaw in the 24/7 internet connection that Enphase requires.
It seems that any function of the smart switch must be routed thru the Enphase corporate server located somewhere in the cloud (China), and that the smartphone app doesnt actually do anything other than send requests to the server.
The clue:  If you even hear the word "monitoring" start asking a lot more questions.

So back to square one (assuming I dont want to toss a lot of money into a new plaything for Russian hackers).

...and if you are hoping on backup power starting your outdoor air conditioner unit, you would need to severely over-rate your power supply to compensate for the inrush current (Locked Rotor Amps) or use a soft-start attachment to tame the compressors appetite.

Not cheap (after Okla taxes I paid $316 for mine) but much less expensive than installing the kW you would need otherwise. One example:

https://www.industrialstores.com/media/industrialstores/product/attachments/14751542312010ECT-79.pdf

The hoops PSO makes you jump thru to connect to their grid AND sell back your excess generation (Net Metering) appear to discourage anyone from investing
in a solar backup system.  Homeowners may consider just doing away with Net Metering (and their second meter) if thats the only way they can use their own generated power in an emergency while maintaining the safety of PSO's people and equipment.  The PSO document below is terribly out of date  given the capabilities of state-of-the-art home solar generation:

https://www.psoklahoma.com/lib/docs/business/builders/PSO-CompleteGuidetoInterconnection2021.pdf

Thats a shame, because Net Metering appears to have so many benefits for not only the customer, but also PSO and the stability of their system.

"OG&E's own cost of service study, in which net metering customers were evaluated as a separate subclass, actually showed that it cost less to serve them than other residential customers and that under current rates, OG&E recovered a greater percentage of the cost of service from net metering customers than
from other customers.  In layman's terms, net metering customers were subsidizing other residential customers."

https://www.sierraclub.org/planet/2017/03/oklahoma-regulators-reject-anti-solar-anti-efficiency-rates

Quote from: patric on May 20, 2022, 12:09:34 PM
The hoops PSO makes you jump thru to connect to their grid AND sell back your excess generation (Net Metering) appear to discourage anyone from investing
in a solar backup system.  Homeowners may consider just doing away with Net Metering (and their second meter) if thats the only way they can use their own generated power in an emergency while maintaining the safety of PSO's people and equipment.  The PSO document below is terribly out of date  given the capabilities of state-of-the-art home solar generation:

One of my uncles was involved in the early detection of power system failures and preventing utility workers from being endangered from home generation systems. He never got a dime from his work.  :-(

I am at the end of a feeder line and frequently experience power failures when houses across the street still have power.  I am no fan of PSO. If I ever get a backup system, I would not so much be interested in selling back power as keeping my refrigerator, freezer, AC/heater and water (well water pump) going.

Quote from: Red Arrow on May 21, 2022, 12:06:46 AM
One of my uncles was involved in the early detection of power system failures and preventing utility workers from being endangered from home generation systems. He never got a dime from his work.  :-(

I am at the end of a feeder line and frequently experience power failures when houses across the street still have power.  I am no fan of PSO. If I ever get a backup system, I would not so much be interested in selling back power as keeping my refrigerator, freezer, AC/heater and water (well water pump) going.

Sofar all the solar companies I have visited with have based their business model on the belief that the goals of their customers are to stick it to the (PSO) man by generating their own power.  For me, a whole-house UPS that takes over in 4 microseconds when someone knocks down a utility pole has serious geek appeal.

I dont see exporting my excess generation to the utility company as a necessity, but PSO's 2021 "Requirements for the Interconnection of Distributed Generation or Energy Storage Systems"  https://www.psoklahoma.com/lib/docs/business/builders/PSO-CompleteGuidetoInterconnection2021.pdf  assumes I do, and bases that assumption on old data.

For example... before the output of your system can even reach your fusebox it must first pass thru a second, PSO-provided "production meter" which is essentially just another AMI Smart Meter that PSO can turn on and off remotely at will.  The stated purpose is to meter how much power your system is producing without regard to whether or not you choose to sell any of it to them.

Two major questions to ask a solar installer:

Will my solar system work during a power failure?
Will my solar system work without an internet connection?

For your "standard" installation, the answer to both of these questions is no.
If your installer isnt willing to work with you to change that, you find an installer that will.

Quote from: buffalodan on April 20, 2022, 11:30:08 AM
Our average bill was $70 or so. We have a pretty efficient house and don't use a ton of electricity. But were quoted $4/KW of installed solar panels, so I think we will go with it. I would give radical and shine solar a call. They are two pretty different companies. Radical is much smaller and not as polished, whereas shine solar had fun web apps and all that jazz.

Most likely closer to $4 per Watt installed solar.   The panels themselves if you bought them yourself are near $1 per watt, depending on brand, voltage, and capacity.  


For everyone;
As for saving money with solar - it ain't gonna happen in Oklahoma!   Not for years, anyway!   A much better, more cost effective, and much cheaper approach is to upgrade other things at your house!   Just blowing more insulation into the attic will have the most cost effective improvement you can do.  Do it yourself and there is no excuse to do anything else first!

If anyone just wants to spend money on reducing energy costs, after the insulation, wall insulation.  Then seal up everything!   Get all the old insulation out of the attic, go around and seal all the leaks, then blow in a couple feet of cellulose!  Seal all the sills around the base boards and the electrical outlets.  Bonus - you have a built in insect repellent sitting there!  And fire resistant!  Get a blower door test before and after to see how much things are improved - I would bet that if you seal all those things, you will still have enough leaks not to worry about ERV ventilation, but it you do, that is a very cost effective thing to add!   Exhaust the bathroom(s) and kitchen, supply all the other rooms.  ERV so you also get the humidity part of that.

Then windows - if you don't want to replace, buy storm windows to add on.

After all that, and if you are handy with home projects, and willing to lose 3" floor space to every outside wall - and only the outside walls, install a 2" layer of poli-iso foam to the existing sheet rock.  Then re-sheet rock, tape, and paint.  There will be some minor electrical, and window bucks will be needed, but those are fairly small parts of this.  Instant R-10 addition to the house walls.  Since the existing sheet rock stays, you get air, water, and vapor barrier going on, too.    Plus new paint throughout.  This is a great home DIY that can be done one room at a time to minimize disruption, if you want.

DO NOT waste time and money on the aluminum foil plastic "insulation"!!   They are NOT insulation!   They are a radiant barrier that doesn't mean squat in 99% of the houses in this country!  You won't save the cost of the plastic with that!   Let alone installation costs....

https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/06/tesla-cleverly-bundling-its-battery-users-to-reduce-grid-demand/

I'm sure we are quite a ways from something like this, but this type of system would make the battery prices a lot more reasonable than they currently are. Though I imagine the more the batteries make sense, the more expensive they get, blah.

What is the life expectancy of these systems?  Is it considered in the overall cost of ownership/electricity?

I am thinking of the sticker shock many Electric Vehicle owners will experience when they have to replace the battery in their EV.  Of course many EV owners will trade for a newer EV and just absorb the depreciation.  The new owner may or may not get a price that reflects the need for a new battery.  EVs may move to the value methods of airplanes where the value is somewhat separated to airframe, engine(s) and avionics.  An EV (or really any car) value would be basic mechanical, battery and motor (or IC engine and tranny) and "technology" which is just electronics that will break and not be supported by the manufacturer.  Changing avionics in a airplane is expensive but relatively easy since there are standard "rack" and instrument sizes.  Not so much in automobiles.

You would definitely use up your battery faster through this method, which would need to be calculated as part of the worth. I'm not sure how it would change that equation though.

As far as the EV, I think the hardest part is that you are kinda moving back to the K-Car era of a car becoming a liability after 10-15 years. 10 years after not spending money on maintenance you all of a sudden realize that you need to drop $10k so the car can drive more than 50 miles at once? It will be a shocker.

I don't think the battery replacement issue in EVs is an actual issue - most will easily go 200k while 300k-500k is more typical, especially with newer batteries. Also Federal law requires the warranty on the batteries to run 8 years or 100k. With the cost usually being around 10k-15k, it's really no different than an engine plus you're spending less during that time on brakes, transmissions in most cases, and of course nothing on oil changes and the other regular expenses of an ICE (but more of tires). There was talk ,similar to what you mention about planes, about doing cars where you buy the chassis basically (with all the mechanical and electrical parts) and then manufacturers can offer new bodies so you can send your car back to the factory where they R&R as needed on those bits and then put the latest body and interior in it. I really don't see that happening as it's much faster to build from scratch that to rebuild something but we'll see.

Solid state battery tech is what will be the gamechanger. Give it 5 years and I think the EV landscape will look completely different.

I can break this down into two general types of on-the-grid solar installations:

1.  You collect and store power, and use some of it to offset your normal daily consumption.
What you dont use you can sell back to PSO for pennies on the dollar (net metering).
This export *may* also help to stabilize the power supply in your neighborhood.
In a power failure, you can NOT use your stored power because PSO (or software) disables the entire solar system.


2.  You collect and store power, and use some of it to offset your normal daily consumption.
What you dont use remains stored in your battery as a backup in case of a power failure.
You do NOT have the option of selling back any of that stored power.
In a power failure, your battery takes over and continues to supply power to your home.


As fate would have it, solar installers assume everyone wants the first option, and their customers are shocked to discover they are still in the dark when PSO goes down.

Newer solar controllers monitor the grid, and will not ever send back power to the grid during a power failure.  That is a major safety point that older systems may not have adequately addresses, and I believe that is a significant reason PSO is still falling back on outdated regulation.

Quote from: patric on July 07, 2022, 01:23:25 PM
INewer solar controllers monitor the grid, and will not ever send back power to the grid during a power failure.  That is a major safety point that older systems may not have adequately addresses, and I believe that is a significant reason PSO is still falling back on outdated regulation.

It's about time.  In the 1970s one of my uncles developed (and patented) a system to use the waste heat of a diesel fuel powered electric generator set to make hot water and sell the electricity back to the utilities.  The really important thing was to monitor the grid to sense a failure which he did. His house used an oil burner to make hot water to heat the potable water and to heat the house which was common in suburban Phila PA.  He never got to do much with it because the utilities weren't interested in buying electricity.

Quote from: patric on July 07, 2022, 01:23:25 PM
I can break this down into two general types of on-the-grid solar installations:

1.  You collect and store power, and use some of it to offset your normal daily consumption.
What you dont use you can sell back to PSO for pennies on the dollar (net metering).
This export *may* also help to stabilize the power supply in your neighborhood.
In a power failure, you can NOT use your stored power because PSO (or software) disables the entire solar system.


2.  You collect and store power, and use some of it to offset your normal daily consumption.
What you dont use remains stored in your battery as a backup in case of a power failure.
You do NOT have the option of selling back any of that stored power.
In a power failure, your battery takes over and continues to supply power to your home.


As fate would have it, solar installers assume everyone wants the first option, and their customers are shocked to discover they are still in the dark when PSO goes down.

Newer solar controllers monitor the grid, and will not ever send back power to the grid during a power failure.  That is a major safety point that older systems may not have adequately addresses, and I believe that is a significant reason PSO is still falling back on outdated regulation.

Either way, still a sucker bet until have done all the other energy savings things (above).  For power down backup - a small generator, if you have natural gas coming to the house, will be way better than any of the solar options.  Cheaper from the start, clear through to the end!   

Now if there was a small, reasonably priced solar backup system - still with a small generator (Honda 1,000 W maybe) - available that just keeps humming along in the background until power out, that might make sense.  Still need electrician to install electrical switchover to backup when power is out.  And just power the critical things like fridge, or heater, small window unit and/or some fans, till electric is back on.  That might make sense.

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on July 08, 2022, 05:16:29 PM

Either way, still a sucker bet until have done all the other energy savings things (above).  For power down backup - a small generator, if you have natural gas coming to the house, will be way better than any of the solar options.  Cheaper from the start, clear through to the end! 

When I started researching backup power it seemed like Generac was the way to go, but the more you research the more disillusioned you get.

Generac installers have a clause in their contracts that allow them to do whatever they "feel necessary" to finish the job, and you agree to pay with an essentially blank check.  How about an extra thousand for a dedicated gas line?
Generac is open-frame alternator technology that is a mangled, noisy AC waveform where voltage and frequency wander all over the place. How much of your sensitive electronics do you feel like replacing?
If you dont maintain a 24/7 internet connection, it doesnt get commands from the server (in China?) and wont operate automatically in a blackout.
They rumble your house, and your neighbors. Like someone parked a reefer truck in your driveway.
And lastly, natural gas supply seems rock solid until you look at how much of that infrastructure literally froze a year and a half ago last February (when people in Texas were burning furniture for heat).

And when they ban natural gas and propane by 2040, what will you power your generator with? CA/NY/WA all have banned or are planning to ban natural gas in new construction, you are only allowed electric for stoves/water heaters/furnaces.

Quote(CNN)In 2019, the city council in Berkeley, California, held a stunning vote: it would ban natural gas hookups in all new building construction to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and the city's impact on the climate crisis.

No gas furnaces in new homes, the council said. No gas stoves or ovens.
Other progressive cities followed suit with similar bans. San Francisco passed its own ban in 2020. New York City became the largest US city to pass a version in 2021, with New York Gov. Kathy Hochul vowing to pass a statewide law that would ban natural gas by 2027.
But other municipalities looking to take similar action are running into a brick wall. Twenty states with GOP-controlled legislatures have passed so-called "preemption laws" that prohibit cities from banning natural gas.
It's bad news for municipal climate action: Taking natural gas out of the equation and switching to electric appliances is one of the most effective ways cities can tackle the climate crisis and lower their emissions, multiple experts told CNN.

"Natural gas bans are kind of low-hanging fruit," said Georgetown Law professor Sheila Foster, an environmental law expert. Foster said cities can make a significant impact by moving away from natural gas and toward electricity, especially considering what little federal action there's been on climate, and the mixed record of states.

The climate stakes are high. Residential and commercial emissions made up 13% of total US emissions in 2019, according to the Environmental Protection Agency. About 80% of those emissions came from the combustion of natural gas, the fuel that heats homes or powers a restaurant's cooking stoves, and emits planet-warming gases like methane and carbon dioxide in the process.

But clean alternatives exist: Electric heat pumps can heat homes more sustainably than gas furnaces; induction ranges can replace gas stoves. And experts stress that to fully transition to renewable energy sources like solar and wind, homes and businesses need to operate on electricity -- not gas.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/17/politics/natural-gas-ban-preemptive-laws-gop-climate/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/17/politics/natural-gas-ban-preemptive-laws-gop-climate/index.html)

Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on July 08, 2022, 06:53:41 PM
And when they ban natural gas and propane by 2040, what will you power your generator with? CA/NY/WA all have banned or are planning to ban natural gas in new construction, you are only allowed electric for stoves/water heaters/furnaces.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/17/politics/natural-gas-ban-preemptive-laws-gop-climate/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/17/politics/natural-gas-ban-preemptive-laws-gop-climate/index.html)

From the  link:

QuoteThe climate stakes are high. Residential and commercial emissions made up 13% of total US emissions in 2019, according to the Environmental Protection Agency. About 80% of those emissions came from the combustion of natural gas, the fuel that heats homes or powers a restaurant's cooking stoves, and emits planet-warming gases like methane and carbon dioxide in the process.

Natural gas is methane.  Please explain how burning methane emits methane.  CO2 yes, methane no.

In areas where electricity is produced by burning fossil fuels, banning natural gas for heating and cooking is probably not environmentally friendly.

Quote from: Red Arrow on July 09, 2022, 01:23:30 AM
From the  link:
Natural gas is methane.  Please explain how burning methane emits methane.  CO2 yes, methane no.

You know that, and I know that, and most people that have an understanding and a grasp of petrochemical products knows that. The CNN expert doesn't know that.

Our system is up. Waiting on PSO to come out and finish out the meter so we have a few more weeks until everything is operational. We did opt for net metering. Again, with current cost of batteries we couldn't justify having them as an energy backup. We should be fully operation by August, so I can post an electric bill for June and one for August so people can get a glimpse of what the solar costs looks like in the real world. We've have a lot of gas appliances (car, heater, stove, water heater, dryer) that I'm hoping to ween ourselves off as when we need replacements, which should help offset some of the loss through net metering that we anticipate having.

So far its been a smooth install process. There is a lot of waiting around for different groups to inspect/come out. But just 2 days of them crawling around on the roof and in the attic.

Quote from: buffalodan on July 09, 2022, 01:15:57 PM
Our system is up. Waiting on PSO to come out and finish out the meter so we have a few more weeks until everything is operational. We did opt for net metering. Again, with current cost of batteries we couldn't justify having them as an energy backup. We should be fully operation by August, so I can post an electric bill for June and one for August so people can get a glimpse of what the solar costs looks like in the real world. We've have a lot of gas appliances (car, heater, stove, water heater, dryer) that I'm hoping to ween ourselves off as when we need replacements, which should help offset some of the loss through net metering that we anticipate having.

So far its been a smooth install process. There is a lot of waiting around for different groups to inspect/come out. But just 2 days of them crawling around on the roof and in the attic.

Hopefully someone explained that any excess generation that gets sold back is compensated in the form of credits on future electric bills, so there may be a few months lag before you get a good picture of your payback.
I would have opted for at least one battery so you can have some power to your house from your system at night, and smooth out the output on cloudy days.

Im curious, did they wire your "production meter" so that its before any of your breaker panels, or only before the connection to the grid?
The former only make sense if the purpose of the meter is to act as PSO's remote kill switch, which shouldnt be necessary with a modern inverter.
Your main "Smart" meter is bi-directional, so they would know right away just from that how much power you were feeding back into the grid.

Also, did you see any action on the tax credit, or did your installer build that into their price?

Everything is up. The app/monitor (sense) is having trouble reading how much energy the house is using up right now, but the panels are currently producing about 5,000w. I'll have a better review in a month after we get our first bill post-solar. We started this process on April 20, so 3 months from signing paperwork to having a functioning system.

The guys can do the battery install. If we do end up with an EV this winter, I'll probably try to get a battery installed next year.

So panels go to the inverter, which then goes to a PSO meter, which then goes to a disconnect, then to the box. Then back to a different PSO meter. The reasoning is that PSO wants to know how much energy you are generating as well as how much you are using. Which, whatever.

We got the paperwork for the tax credit, but it wasn't "priced" into the quote. We will handle all of it ourselves. Most of the lenders had an option to redo the monthly prices after a year, with the understanding that you could you take your tax refund and apply it to the loan. Not sure what we will do.

Anyway, if you looking at Solar/Batteries. I would definitely recommend the people at Radical Solar. There's no referral code or anything, but they were great to work with, knowledgeable, and very relaxed.

Quote from: buffalodan on July 19, 2022, 12:45:51 PM

So panels go to the inverter, which then goes to a PSO meter, which then goes to a disconnect, then to the box. Then back to a different PSO meter. The reasoning is that PSO wants to know how much energy you are generating as well as how much you are using. Which, whatever.

The second meter is what they call a "production" meter which measures the total energy you produce, NOT how much you are sending to PSO.  Since your regular (bi-directional) meter is the one that measures how much power you send back, the "production" meter makes no sense until you realize that it is really nothing but a remote-control kill switch that shuts off your entire system at PSO's whim.

If you elect to not sell back power to PSO (Net Metering) you can request that they not install the second meter.

Quote from: buffalodan on July 19, 2022, 12:45:51 PM

Anyway, if you looking at Solar/Batteries. I would definitely recommend the people at Radical Solar. There's no referral code or anything, but they were great to work with, knowledgeable, and very relaxed.

I finally got a reply from them and they were easygoing but not very Radical when it comes to doing anything besides selling power back to PSO with your Tesla system that wont work in a power failure.  I just want a big frickin' whole-house UPS, thats all...

ADDED: When I suggested they install just unconnected panels for me to work on later, they declined out of fear PSO would be mad at them for not requiring me to connect them to their grid.  I assumed they were at least familiar with the state laws and the Corporation Commission rules that govern their business and would know better.  (hint: just because its a solar panel doesnt mean you are required to connect it to PSO.)

Quote from: heironymouspasparagus on June 27, 2022, 02:43:03 PM

Most likely closer to $4 per Watt installed solar.  

Im looking at about $4.80 per watt, but its a system that will keep my fridge and AC going when the neighborhood goes dark.

Quote from: patric on August 13, 2022, 01:18:56 PM
Im looking at about $4.80 per watt, but its a system that will keep my fridge and AC going when the neighborhood goes dark.

Did you find someone to both connect to PSO to sell electricity and to be a backup for your house?  Did you get enough watts to run the whole house(or selected components of the house?) during daylight without drawing the battery down?

Quote from: Red Arrow on August 13, 2022, 02:35:13 PM

Did you find someone to both connect to PSO to sell electricity and to be a backup for your house?  Did you get enough watts to run the whole house(or selected components of the house?) during daylight without drawing the battery down?

I wont be exporting power to PSO.
In Oklahoma, at least, Net Metering is hogwash.  No way would I spend thousands on a PV system that I wouldnt be able to use in a blackout.
I will still have the Frankenstein's-lab-sized cutoff switch after the PSO meter to guarantee isolation, but the hybrid inverter automatically does that in software.

Having at least one battery for storage is a necessity; I can add more as I get a feel of how the system performs.

Quote from: patric on August 13, 2022, 09:19:40 PM
I wont be exporting power to PSO.
In Oklahoma, at least, Net Metering is hogwash.  No way would I spend thousands on a PV system that I wouldnt be able to use in a blackout.
I will still have the Frankenstein's-lab-sized cutoff switch after the PSO meter to guarantee isolation, but the hybrid inverter automatically does that in software.

Having at least one battery for storage is a necessity; I can add more as I get a feel of how the system performs.

Sounds like a good plan to me.  Too bad OK and PSO don't recognize the technology that would allow solar powered folks to ease the pain on the grid during the hot summer days as well as provide for power outage back-up for individuals.  Must be related to education. We need to fix the public and private school systems in OK but that's for another thread.

Quote from: Red Arrow on August 13, 2022, 11:33:45 PM

Sounds like a good plan to me.  Too bad OK and PSO don't recognize the technology that would allow solar powered folks to ease the pain on the grid during the hot summer days as well as provide for power outage back-up for individuals.  Must be related to education. We need to fix the public and private school systems in OK but that's for another thread.

Confusing terminology is part of the problem.
For example, you might think that the term "islanding" would mean "cut off from everything" but in corporate utility-speak it means "always connected and distributing power" which is a no-no.
Being ten years behind the curve is nothing new for PSO unfortunately.

Quote from: patric on August 20, 2022, 11:26:00 AM
Confusing terminology is part of the problem.
For example, you might think that the term "islanding" would mean "cut off from everything" but in corporate utility-speak it means "always connected and distributing power" which is a no-no.
Being ten years behind the curve is nothing new for PSO unfortunately.

Do other electric utility companies allow this? PSO(AEP) is the fourth largest electric utility company in the country. It's not like they are a small local outfit.

Quote from: swake on August 20, 2022, 03:15:30 PM

Do other electric utility companies allow this? PSO(AEP) is the fourth largest electric utility company in the country. It's not like they are a small local outfit.

I agree. I dont think its coincidence that Oklahoma utilities tried to push thru the same wording on a new tax on rooftop solar as was done in California, for example.

https://solarrights.org/the-utilities-are-the-masterminds-behind-the-smear-campaign-against-rooftop-solar/
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3512310-Edison-Electric-Institute-Communications-Handbook.html

Our Corporation Commission stopped it (but later dropped the ball by OK'ing so-called "securitization" where we pay an emergency rate increase for the 2021 winter storm over the next quarter century:  https://oklahomawatch.org/2022/02/11/oklahoma-customers-paid-billions-for-natural-gas-in-last-winters-storm-heres-who-cashed-in%EF%BF%BC/ ).

Its likely the same groupthink that set the standards on Tulsa's multi-million overhaul of our streetlight system based on obsolete data that has been outdated for more than a decade.  Yes, there's another thread for that.

Quote from: Red Arrow on August 13, 2022, 11:33:45 PM
Too bad OK and PSO don't recognize the technology that would allow solar powered folks to ease the pain on the grid during the hot summer days as well as provide for power outage back-up for individuals.

Im also thinking of cold winter nights where we had rolling blackouts in Tulsa because Texas was unprepared for extreme winters.

Another example of how far behind the curve AEP is; Im sure they are aware of this, but I seriously doubt any of the solar installers within reach of Oklahoma are:

' Some designs, commonly known as a microgrid, allow for intentional islanding. In case of a power outage, a microgrid controller disconnects the local circuit from the grid on a dedicated switch and forces the distributed generator(s) to power the entire local load.[1][2] A common example of intentional islanding is a distribution feeder that has solar panels attached to it. In the case of an outage, the solar panels will continue to deliver power as long as irradiance is sufficient. In this case, the circuit detached by the outage becomes an "island". For this reason, solar inverters that are designed to supply power to the grid are generally required to have some sort of automatic anti-islanding circuitry.

Given the activity in the field, and the large variety of methods that have been developed to detect islanding, it is important to consider whether or not the problem actually demands the amount of effort being expended.
If an islanding issue does exist, it appears to be limited to certain types of generators. A 2004 Canadian report concluded that synchronous generators, installations like microhydro, were the main concern. These systems may have considerable mechanical inertia that will provide a useful signal. For inverter-based systems, the report largely dismissed the problem, stating: "Anti-islanding technology for inverter based DG systems is much better developed, and published risk assessments suggest that the current technology and standards provide adequate protection while penetration of DG into the distribution system remains relatively low."
Nevertheless, utility companies have continued to use islanding as a reason to delay or refuse the implementation of distributed generation systems. '
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islanding

Why did they build power plants here that all the power got sent to black out city California?

None of it went into Oklahomas grid.

Quote from: whoatown on October 22, 2022, 03:14:44 PM
Why did they build power plants here that all the power got sent to black out city California?

None of it went into Oklahomas grid.

This isn't true. More than that, it's not even possible.

FWIW, from September of 2012:

QuoteReuters) - U.S. Internet company Google Inc on Wednesday agreed to buy 48 megawatts (MW) of wind energy for its Oklahoma data center from the Canadian Hills wind power project in Oklahoma, which is expected to enter service later this year.

In a release, Google said it has been working with its local utility, the Grand River Dam Authority, to procure additional renewable energy since plugging in the Oklahoma data center in 2011.

In conjunction with the electricity the Grand River Dam Authority already supplies Google to operate its data center, Google said it would pay a premium to purchase renewable energy generated by Canadian Hills.

The Google data center is located in Mayes County about 170 miles northeast of Oklahoma City.

Google said the purchase brings the total amount of renewable energy it has contracted for to over 260 MW.

One megawatt can power about 1,000 homes.

Boston-based power generator Atlantic Power Corp owns 99 percent of the 298-MW Canadian Hills wind farm, which is located in El Reno about 30 miles west of Oklahoma City, according to Atlantic Power's website.

Atlantic Power said it sells all of the power from Canadian Hills to three power companies: Southwestern Electric Power Authority, the Oklahoma Municipal Power Authority and Grand River Dam Authority.

https://www.reuters.com/article/net-us-utilities-google-oklahoma-wind/google-buys-wind-power-for-oklahoma-data-center-idUSBRE88P1DZ20120926 (https://www.reuters.com/article/net-us-utilities-google-oklahoma-wind/google-buys-wind-power-for-oklahoma-data-center-idUSBRE88P1DZ20120926)


Southwestern Electric Power Authority

QuoteSouthwestern Electric Power Company serves 547,800 customers in northwestern and central Louisiana, western Arkansas, East Texas and the Panhandle area of North Texas. Its headquarters are in Shreveport, La.

https://www.swepco.com/company/about/ (https://www.swepco.com/company/about/)


And from December of 2016

Quote
MINCO, Okla. — Last year, Google consumed as much energy as the city of San Francisco. Next year, it said, all of that energy will come from wind farms and solar panels.

The online giant said on Tuesday that all of its data centers around the world will be entirely powered with renewable energy sources sometime next year.

This is not to say that Google computers will consume nothing but wind and solar power. Like almost any company, Google gets power from a power company, which operates an energy grid typically supplied by a number of sources, including hydroelectric dams, natural gas, coal and wind power.

What Google has done over the last decade, with relatively little fanfare, is participate in a number of large-scale deals with renewable producers, typically guaranteeing to buy the energy they produce with their wind turbines and solar cells. With those guarantees, wind companies can obtain bank financing to build more turbines.

The power created by the renewables is plugged into the utility grid, so that Google's usage presents no net consumption of fossil fuels and the pool of electricity gets a relatively larger share of renewable sources.

"We are the largest corporate purchaser of renewable energy in the world," said Joe Kava, Google's senior vice president of technical infrastructure. "It's good for the economy, good for business and good for our shareholders."



Google hopes that success in working with large wind farms, like the 50,000-acre facility in Minco, Okla., which supplies Google's large data center in Pryor, Okla., will spur development of the industry. NextEra Energy, which owns the wind farm, has about 115 wind farms in the United States and Canada.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/06/technology/google-says-it-will-run-entirely-on-renewable-energy-in-2017.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/06/technology/google-says-it-will-run-entirely-on-renewable-energy-in-2017.html)

And this year

QuoteSingle-largest wind farm in North America
The 356 GE turbine-powered wind farm, which spans Blaine and Custer counties in north central Oklahoma, is one of the largest wind farms in the world.

Traverse is expected to generate 3.8 million megawatt-hours annually for American Electric Power's Public Service Company of Oklahoma (PSO) and Southwestern Electric Power Company (SWEPCO) customers in Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Louisiana.

Traverse is the third and final wind farm that makes up the North Central Energy Facilities, which also includes the 199 MW Sundance and 287 MW Maverick wind farms, which began commercial operation in April and September 2021, respectively.

https://electrek.co/2022/03/24/the-single-largest-wind-farm-in-north-america-comes-online-in-oklahoma/ (https://electrek.co/2022/03/24/the-single-largest-wind-farm-in-north-america-comes-online-in-oklahoma/)

Quote from: swake on October 22, 2022, 03:33:12 PM
This isn't true. More than that, it's not even possible.

Not talking about solar installations.  Actual pollute the environment plants.  Sending all the power to California instead of anywhere in Oklahoma.

Quote from: whoatown on October 30, 2022, 05:27:08 PM
Not talking about solar installations.  Actual pollute the environment plants.  Sending all the power to California instead of anywhere in Oklahoma.

What you claim is simply not even possible. Power has a possible transmission distance of about 300 miles max.

Your post is fake news.

Quote from: swake on October 30, 2022, 06:03:47 PM
What you claim is simply not even possible. Power has a possible transmission distance of about 300 miles max.

Your post is fake news.

His post probably doesnt even qualify as fake news. What was the "source?"

Now to be fair, we had rolling blackouts in Tulsa during the near-collapse of the Texas grid in February 2021.
If that wasnt bad enough, our own Corporation Commission rolled over in one of the worse cases of price gouging in recent history:
https://fortune.com/2021/07/09/gas-sellers-made-11-billion-texas-winter-blackout/

Just a reminder for anyone considering solar: choose a "Peak Shaving" installation instead of "Net Metering" if you want to still have power when the next big storm hits.

Quote from: patric on October 30, 2022, 06:51:19 PM
His post probably doesnt even qualify as fake news. What was the "source?"

Now to be fair, we had rolling blackouts in Tulsa during the near-collapse of the Texas grid in February 2021.
If that wasnt bad enough, our own Corporation Commission rolled over in one of the worse cases of price gouging in recent history:
https://fortune.com/2021/07/09/gas-sellers-made-11-billion-texas-winter-blackout/

Just a reminder for anyone considering solar: choose a "Peak Shaving" installation instead of "Net Metering" if you want to still have power when the next big storm hits.

Sure, the power supply in south Texas wasn't hardened for extreme cold and crashed which impacted north Texas which impacted Oklahoma, even though Texas and Oklahoma aren't on the same grids. Thus the "rolling", but I am 100% sure you know that. But Whoa doesn't.

Quote from: whoatown on October 30, 2022, 05:27:08 PM
Not talking about solar installations.  Actual pollute the environment plants.  Sending all the power to California instead of anywhere in Oklahoma.

So sauerkraut is back in different guise.   Still spewing lies.

So can we agree that the sky is blue during the daytime?

Or are we going to debate that too?

Quote from: whoatown on October 30, 2022, 11:55:27 PM
So can we agree that the sky is blue during the daytime?

Or are we going to debate that too?

Sky is mostly gray when overcast.

Quote from: whoatown on October 30, 2022, 05:27:08 PM
Not talking about solar installations.  Actual pollute the environment plants.  Sending all the power to California instead of anywhere in Oklahoma.

So one wonders why the non-sequiturs in a "Solar Installers" post? 

On topic:
Unless you are completely "off-grid" you still pay PSO for the privilege of being their customer regardless of having solar panels or not.

Infrastructure Fee
Franchise Fee
City Tax
County Tax
Winter Storm Cost Recovery Rider
Thats in addition to the Rate billing and Cost of Fuel, so utility company claims that solar customers arent paying their fair share of of utility upkeep dont wash.

Re: the "Sun Tax" OG&E and PSO wanted...
"Rates, for regulated entities, are developed through a full audit and litigated hearing. The purpose of HB 1456 was to ensure that customers who were able to offset some of their usage through self-generation would not be subsidized by those who could not do so.  This subsidization could occur as some of the fixed costs of the utility are passed through in the usage portion of the rate. Therefore, if a customer is no longer using as much power, they could not be covering the fixed costs they cause on the system.   The audits for any future tariff will review these potential issues as well as any system wide benefits that can be quantified related to the addition of self-generation.

To date no regulated utility has provided sufficient information to identify if or the level of subsidy that occurs with the installation of Distributed Generation."
https://oklahoma.gov/occ/divisions/public-utility/electric-utility/netmetering.html

Battery technology has had great advances since then, and storing your excess generation for use at home pretty much makes Net Metering moot.

Quote from: Red Arrow on October 31, 2022, 03:57:49 AM
Sky is mostly gray when overcast.

At least the sky isn't falling.

Quote from: patric on October 31, 2022, 01:29:19 PM
So one wonders why the non-sequiturs in a "Solar Installers" post? 

On topic:
Unless you are completely "off-grid" you still pay PSO for the privilege of being their customer regardless of having solar panels or not.

Infrastructure Fee
Franchise Fee
City Tax
County Tax
Winter Storm Cost Recovery Rider
Thats in addition to the Rate billing and Cost of Fuel, so utility company claims that solar customers arent paying their fair share of of utility upkeep dont wash.

Re: the "Sun Tax" OG&E and PSO wanted...
"Rates, for regulated entities, are developed through a full audit and litigated hearing. The purpose of HB 1456 was to ensure that customers who were able to offset some of their usage through self-generation would not be subsidized by those who could not do so.  This subsidization could occur as some of the fixed costs of the utility are passed through in the usage portion of the rate. Therefore, if a customer is no longer using as much power, they could not be covering the fixed costs they cause on the system.   The audits for any future tariff will review these potential issues as well as any system wide benefits that can be quantified related to the addition of self-generation.

To date no regulated utility has provided sufficient information to identify if or the level of subsidy that occurs with the installation of Distributed Generation."
https://oklahoma.gov/occ/divisions/public-utility/electric-utility/netmetering.html

Battery technology has had great advances since then, and storing your excess generation for use at home pretty much makes Net Metering moot.

Those grid tie systems are a strange animal. 

And it doesn't seem like PSO will really let you go off grid all of a sudden.

Electric reliability performance during 2021 Winter Storm Uri, from best to worse:

Hydroelectric
Solar and wind
Nuclear
Natural Gas

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joshuarhodes/2022/02/15/one-year-later-the-storm-that-knocked-texas-out-cold/

Quote from: whoatown on October 30, 2022, 11:55:27 PM
So can we agree that the sky is blue during the daytime?

Or are we going to debate that too?

Sure!   Can agree with actual facts.  What you are spewing is NOT.

PSO must be strong arming cities into adding a capital improvement tax to your electric bill.

https://archive.org/details/cobok-Explaining_the_PSO_Franchise_Agreement_renewal

They did this in Tulsa and now they're leaving it up to the voters in Broken Arrow to do the same. 

Ive been in the habit now of doing laundry and dishes in the middle of the day when the sun is brightest because the electricity is free, and noticed my generation was a bit lower than normal...

TULSA, Okla. — In the aftermath of Sunday's severe weather, many people woke up to vehicles covered in dirt.
FOX23's certified meteorologist Mike Grogan said this is due to a dust storm from new Mexico mixing in with Sunday night's weather creating a mud rain.

So yeah, when it rains mud you have to rinse off the solar panels, too.

No kidding. Yeah, we get something like that everey now and then.

(https://imageio.forbes.com/blogs-images/trevornace/files/2018/07/dust-storm-arizona.jpg?format=jpg&width=960)

https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2018/07/11/arizona-resembles-mars-as-mile-high-wall-of-dust-barrels-through-phoenix/?sh=2286ddff5687 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2018/07/11/arizona-resembles-mars-as-mile-high-wall-of-dust-barrels-through-phoenix/?sh=2286ddff5687)

Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on February 28, 2023, 09:31:45 PM
No kidding. Yeah, we get something like that everey now and then.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2018/07/11/arizona-resembles-mars-as-mile-high-wall-of-dust-barrels-through-phoenix/?sh=2286ddff5687[/url]

A window cleaning mop on a long pole is a necessity... I almost doubled my output just cleaning today (was kind of dirty).
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/50e625fee4b0c5103c9fdd33/1451360513766-SK53E8PTVN9IBI498P3Y/insterstellar-review-dust-farm)

Been looking for those 20' telescoping mops where the telescoping part carries water to the mop.

With demand being so high, you dont expect to see this:

"Dear Valued Customer,

We hope this message finds you well. We are reaching out to provide an important update regarding the status of Solar Power of Oklahoma (SPO) and your ongoing project.

SPO has proudly served over 5,000 customers during our 7 years in business, always holding the highest regard for our customers. Unfortunately, due to the impact of rising interest rates and inflationary costs, we have encountered significant financial challenges. Despite our best efforts, we have come to the difficult decision that SPO will no longer be able to continue operations.

Our immediate priority is to ensure that all customers who have made down payments for their systems receive their installations without any loss of their down payments. To facilitate this, we must revise our payment structure to protect both our customers and the subcontractors completing these projects.

Moving forward, once your installation is scheduled, we will provide you with a quote for the necessary equipment. You will be required to make a payment directly to the supplier for the equipment one week prior to installation, with the remaining balance due at the time of installation. This approach will allow us to retain subcontracted labor to complete all outstanding contracts."

I know that Tesla solar has been having a lot of problems finding battery suppliers, but they are just one player in a big field.

Quote from: patric on June 25, 2024, 05:24:45 PM
With demand being so high, you dont expect to see this:

"Dear Valued Customer,

We hope this message finds you well. We are reaching out to provide an important update regarding the status of Solar Power of Oklahoma (SPO) and your ongoing project.

SPO has proudly served over 5,000 customers during our 7 years in business, always holding the highest regard for our customers. Unfortunately, due to the impact of rising interest rates and inflationary costs, we have encountered significant financial challenges. Despite our best efforts, we have come to the difficult decision that SPO will no longer be able to continue operations.

Our immediate priority is to ensure that all customers who have made down payments for their systems receive their installations without any loss of their down payments. To facilitate this, we must revise our payment structure to protect both our customers and the subcontractors completing these projects.

Moving forward, once your installation is scheduled, we will provide you with a quote for the necessary equipment. You will be required to make a payment directly to the supplier for the equipment one week prior to installation, with the remaining balance due at the time of installation. This approach will allow us to retain subcontracted labor to complete all outstanding contracts."

I know that Tesla solar has been having a lot of problems finding battery suppliers, but they are just one player in a big field.

There have been two residential installers close up since January this year citing similar issues.

https://www.yourvalley.net/stories/titan-solar-to-close-arizona-operations,517446#:~:text=Titan%20Solar%2C%20a%20one%2Dtime,according%20to%20multiple%20media%20reports.  (https://www.yourvalley.net/stories/titan-solar-to-close-arizona-operations,517446#:~:text=Titan%20Solar%2C%20a%20one%2Dtime,according%20to%20multiple%20media%20reports.)

https://www.abc15.com/news/business/phoenix-solar-company-ceases-operations-files-for-bankruptcy#:~:text=PHOENIX%20%E2%80%94%20A%20Phoenix%2Dbased%20solar,and%20filed%20for%20bankruptcy%20protection.  (https://www.abc15.com/news/business/phoenix-solar-company-ceases-operations-files-for-bankruptcy#:~:text=PHOENIX%20%E2%80%94%20A%20Phoenix%2Dbased%20solar,and%20filed%20for%20bankruptcy%20protection.)

Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on June 25, 2024, 07:20:03 PM
There have been two residential installers close up since January this year citing similar issues.

https://www.yourvalley.net/stories/titan-solar-to-close-arizona-operations,517446#:~:text=Titan%20Solar%2C%20a%20one%2Dtime,according%20to%20multiple%20media%20reports.  (https://www.yourvalley.net/stories/titan-solar-to-close-arizona-operations,517446#:~:text=Titan%20Solar%2C%20a%20one%2Dtime,according%20to%20multiple%20media%20reports.)

https://www.abc15.com/news/business/phoenix-solar-company-ceases-operations-files-for-bankruptcy#:~:text=PHOENIX%20%E2%80%94%20A%20Phoenix%2Dbased%20solar,and%20filed%20for%20bankruptcy%20protection.  (https://www.abc15.com/news/business/phoenix-solar-company-ceases-operations-files-for-bankruptcy#:~:text=PHOENIX%20%E2%80%94%20A%20Phoenix%2Dbased%20solar,and%20filed%20for%20bankruptcy%20protection.)

Looking at the other closures, its not the technology that is failing them but rather the typical marketing and financing that is lacking sustainability.  The lure of making a killing selling power to the utilities entices people to make long-term contracts to host installations beyond their needs and means, entangling all the parties involved in finances over their heads.

I might argue one of the biggest ROI for solar is not having to throw out a freezer full of food because some trees blew over, but that advantage is lost when installers toe the PSO line that generating power for the utility is the only way to go. You have to dig into state statutes and OCC rules to discover otherwise.

They are easy to install, and knock chunks off electricity bills. It may not be Romeo and Juliet, but Spain's balcony scene is heating up as the country embraces what has hitherto been a mainly German love affair with DIY plug-in solar panels.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/dec/18/if-a-million-germans-have-them-there-must-be-something-in-it-how-balcony-solar-is-taking-off#img-1 

Balcony solar panels can save 30% on a typical household's electricity bill and, with vertical surface area in cities larger than roof space, the appeal is clear. Balcony panels also benefit more than roof panels from the low winter sun.

https://external-preview.redd.it/balcony-solar-panels-can-save-30-on-a-typical-households-v0-qaqWTRY4x6E13ol66486ixzoHDwfODaXGs4vtVH3-dU.jpg

People are rushing to install solar panels before Trump becomes President.
The solar power industry is growing fast, accounting for more than half of all new electricity on the grid last year. But soon President-elect Trump and fellow Republicans in Congress may try to reduce or eliminate government incentives that have driven much of that growth.

https://www.npr.org/2025/01/12/nx-s1-5228024/trump-solar-tax-credits

QuoteThe ITC is Established Law: The 30% Federal Solar Investment Tax Credit was enacted as part of the IRA in 2022 and is legislated to remain in effect for nine more years. While laws can change, such changes require due process, including budget reconciliation, which takes time and careful negotiation.

Bipartisan Support for Solar Tax Credits: Solar tax credits have enjoyed bipartisan support for years. For instance, during his last term, President Trump signed legislation in 2020 that extended the solar tax credits rather than allowing them to expire. This demonstrates a long-standing recognition of solar energy's benefits to our economy and national security.

https://www.positiveenergysolar.com/blog/2025/january/solar-incentives-under-president-trump-what-to-k/ (https://www.positiveenergysolar.com/blog/2025/january/solar-incentives-under-president-trump-what-to-k/)

QuoteBipartisan Support for Solar Tax Credits: Solar tax credits have enjoyed bipartisan support for years. For instance, during his last term, President Trump signed legislation in 2020 that extended the solar tax credits rather than allowing them to expire. This demonstrates a long-standing recognition of solar energy's benefits to our economy and national security.

You have to remember Trump is transactional; his flip-flops are only one brown paper bag of money away.
He supported Ukraine right up until he tweeted Zelenskyy was "A Dictator without Elections!!"

Electricity isnt getting any cheaper no matter how much drilling we do, and electric reliability is at the mercy of mother nature. We are way behind the curve on renewable energy compared to most of the world.

Quote from: patric on February 21, 2025, 11:46:30 AMYou have to remember Trump is transactional; his flip-flops are only one brown paper bag of money away.
He supported Ukraine right up until he tweeted Zelenskyy was "A Dictator without Elections!!"

Electricity isnt getting any cheaper no matter how much drilling we do, and electric reliability is at the mercy of mother nature. We are way behind the curve on renewable energy compared to most of the world.

Well, how about that....the ban has been lifted.