Tulsa bought a police helicopter with the promise of no more deadly high-speed pursuits after a family was killed in 1990
(https://tulsaworld.com/news/local/history/throwback-tulsa-40-block-police-pursuit-left-3-dead-in-1990/article_a5cf3605-fa37-52ac-9dbd-ef0d9ffb2e04.html).
This month, Tulsa added a third helicopter.
TULSA, Okla. — A new helicopter is their eye in the sky.
It is an Airbus AS 3503B, or in simpler terms, a really fancy helicopter.
"No longer is night a cloak for the bad guys," Chief helicopter pilot Byron Barnhart said.
That is thanks to what they call the "night sun," a spotlight with the power of 40 million candles, and the $600,000 camera up front.
While Barnhart is in the air, he "can see you just as plain as we're seeing you now," he said during an interview with 2 News Oklahoma.
"It's not just humans. Barnhart says the camera can pick up the VIN of cars. They typically fly 500-700 feet in the air."
Unlike the older white one, the black paint job is meant to match new squad cars, but that's not all.
"We are trying to make the aircraft a little more stealthy," Barnhart said.
The final bill was about $5 million.
https://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/an-outstanding-bird-tulsa-police-department-debuts-new-helicopter
Might explain what has been flying around at night without a collision-avoidance ADS-B transponder.
Interesting. I looked up the tail number on Flight Radar 24 and Flight Aware and it shows a couple of flights around Shreveport, one of which was from Shreveport to Tulsa, and then three or four short flights around Tulsa. All of these were April 11th and 12th and nothing since.
Looking at departures and arrivals for TIA there's not much if anything between about 10 PM and 2:30 AM. I don't know how much traffic there is out of Riverside after dark, so the air space is quite empty over Tulsa at night. It could be that they broadcast their transponder to ATC but it's not publicly relayed. I know that when F-35's and others fly out of Luke AFB just west of where I live they don't relay their transponders to either Flight Radar or Flight Aware but they do transmit to local ATC. because they do cross the far western edge of the pattern over Phoenix.
I don't think legally TPD could fly dark, no lights or transponder, regardless of what the traffic level is over Tulsa.
Quote from: patric on April 17, 2024, 02:11:44 PM
Might explain what has been flying around at night without a collision-avoidance ADS-B transponder.
How do you know they are flying without ADS-B?
Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on April 17, 2024, 09:36:23 PM
Interesting. I looked up the tail number on Flight Radar 24 and Flight Aware and it shows a couple of flights around Shreveport, one of which was from Shreveport to Tulsa, and then three or four short flights around Tulsa. All of these were April 11th and 12th and nothing since.
I don't know about Radar 24 but pretty much anyone can ask to Flight Aware to not show their flight data to the public.
QuoteLooking at departures and arrivals for TIA there's not much if anything between about 10 PM and 2:30 AM. I don't know how much traffic there is out of Riverside after dark, so the air space is quite empty over Tulsa at night.
There isn't enough traffic at Riverside to keep the tower open all night.
QuoteIt could be that they broadcast their transponder to ATC but it's not publicly relayed.
Probably the case.
QuoteI know that when F-35's and others fly out of Luke AFB just west of where I live they don't relay their transponders to either Flight Radar or Flight Aware but they do transmit to local ATC. because they do cross the far western edge of the pattern over Phoenix.
The military has some transponder modes not used by civil aviation. I don't know if the police have access to that equipment. Transponder/ADS-B signals are radio. I don't think you can really determine who/what can receive them.
QuoteI don't think legally TPD could fly dark, no lights or transponder, regardless of what the traffic level is over Tulsa.
I cannot fly at night without lights. Not sure about police/military etc. Arrangements can be made to fly in Class C airspace (Tulsa Int'l) without a transponder and without ADS-B.
Transponder and ADS-B are not required to fly at Riverside if your plane does not have an electrical system. Think older planes like J3 Cub, Taylorcraft, Aeronca Champ. They do have to talk to the Riverside tower, usually with a hand-held radio with its own battery power.
One last thought for now... ADS-B is not required for all airspace in the USA.
Thanks Red. Not being a pilot, my knowledge is limited, just going on what I know from people that are or have been pilots.
I try not to draw any comparisons between Tulsa and Phoenix since the airspace is so vastly different. I will say that I don't remember seeing any aircraft flying at night without any anti collision lights. At one time I lived near Deer Valley Airport which is the base for Phoenix PD Firebird helicopters, Maricopa County Sheriff Dept as well as a few medivac operations and don't remember seeing them fly dark. I have had Phoenix, Mesa, MCSO, fly orbits and overflights and have not seen them dark. That's not to say they haven't, just my own observation. I do know that all of the LEO helicopters here have FLIR, so that gives them a "stealth" mode so to speak. Maybe that's one of the new features TPD has. For several years the quiet option was the Hughes/MD 500 NOTAR, but they all moved to larger helicopters for search and rescue operations.
ADS-B not being a requirement makes sense. You can't make it one size fits all. But a new aircraft, I would think, has it built in, and from what I have read it's an automatic system.
Phoenix PD flies Airbus H125, Mesa flies MD 530F, MCSO fly Bell 429, with DPS flying three Bell 407 and two Bell 429 that are paramedic status.
Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on April 18, 2024, 12:28:17 AM
I try not to draw any comparisons between Tulsa and Phoenix since the airspace is so vastly different.
Probably beyond the interest of most here but....
Yes, Phoenix is a lot busier than Tulsa. Phoenix is Class B airspace, think Chicago, Atlanta, Dallas-Ft Worth, Los Angeles. Requirements to fly there are more strict than places like Tulsa (Class C airspace).
QuoteI do know that all of the LEO helicopters here have FLIR, so that gives them a "stealth" mode so to speak. Maybe that's one of the new features TPD has. For several years the quiet option was the Hughes/MD 500 NOTAR, but they all moved to larger helicopters for search and rescue operations.
NOTAR was a no tail rotor system which is quieter than having a tail rotor. Maybe a bit of stealth. Still difficult to hide the main rotor sound unless you are in Hollywood. ;D
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOTAR
FLIR (Forward Looking InfraRed) is a camera system, kind of, sort of like night vision. Nothing to do with quiet. It's been around for a while.
QuoteADS-B not being a requirement makes sense. You can't make it one size fits all. But a new aircraft, I would think, has it built in, and from what I have read it's an automatic system.
ADS-B is a requirement, just not everywhere. Getting a temporary exception is probably easier in Tulsa than some place like Phoenix, etc. Most airplanes have been converted to be equipped with ADS-B Out (You transmit your info) and I cannot imagine a factory built airplane without it. Maybe some homebuilts won't have it, depending on where they want to fly.
QuoteADS-B allows equipped aircraft and ground vehicles to broadcast their identification, position, altitude and velocity to other aircraft and ATC. This is called ADS-B Out. Being able to receive this information is known as ADS-B In.
"ADS-B Out is an evolutionary step in communication between the aircraft and other airspace consumers. Current transponders enable ATC and other aircraft to know your aircraft's relative position and altitude. ADS-B adds important information to help project and prevent traffic conflicts by estimating intent," explained Jake Biggs, Textron Aviation's aftermarket engineering manager.
"ADS-B requires extremely accurate, three-dimensional position reporting to reduce reliance on ground-based radar to allow tighter separation standards. The advantage to all airspace users is an extremely accurate understanding of traffic and where it is going," Biggs said.
https://txtav.com/en/journey/articles/articles/adsb-out-explained
Identification will include the N-Number and type of aircraft (Cessna 150, Beech Baron, Lear Jet....) so the Air Traffic Controllers will have a good idea of the capabilities of your aircraft. I believe it shows up automatically on the ATC radar screen rather than having the controllers manually enter the info. ATC in Tulsa still assigns a Squawk code for the regular transponder when you contact Tulsa Approach Control if you are just flying around. If you are on a route, talking with controllers, you will already have a squawk code.
ADS-B doesn't work without WAAS (fancy, more accurate than your car) GPS.
Quote from: Red Arrow on April 17, 2024, 10:26:28 PM
How do you know they are flying without ADS-B?
Are you unaware of this (https://globe.adsbexchange.com)?
Even those aircraft with LADD (https://nbaa.org/aircraft-operations/security/privacy/limiting-aircraft-data-displayed-ladd/) flag (Limiting Aircraft Data Display) still get shown on this. I'm noticing most military aircraft don't show up especially the Guard drills. But some trainer a/c do show up. It's peer-to-peer with people having ADSB receivers and GPS locators feeding data into a map online. It's likely what services like FlightRadar24 and FlightAware use. They will strip those a/c with the flag ON, but adsbexchange is a raw ADSB viewer. Obviously they don't provide flight schedules, but you do get callsigns if they are commercial.
Quote from: Hoss on April 18, 2024, 08:49:24 AM
Are you unaware of this (https://globe.adsbexchange.com)?
Yes, I was unaware of "this".
Thanks
The previous craft are based at the Osage casino airpark on 36th Street North, but they are eventually moving to a new hangar at 66th Street North near Sheridan.
Just spotted south of St Johns, no ADS-B.
Quote from: patric on April 22, 2024, 06:55:57 PM
Just spotted south of St Johns, no ADS-B.
Might still be squawking Modes A & C. Tulsa Approach/Departure will know where they are with A & C, just not quite as accurate as with ADS-B. Police probably don't want regular folks tracking them.
It showed up for a while on 4/23/24 flying from near the fairgrounds north to Yale & Dawson where it orbited. Possibly going through familiarization flights. I wouldn't buy into any nefarious intentions as to why it doesn't show up all the time.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-XhhKVJm/0/735DxJpZcGrLhRGTWzD7XSWQd4HSCHSxsdrVhRBP/L/i-XhhKVJm-L.jpg)(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-S8LPRD9/0/CdpFzC8ktL8VHPgfrR9gMpjCKDQS87cGKhS4wrkwj/L/i-S8LPRD9-L.jpg) (https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-x46z7K/i-XhhKVJm/A)
Quote from: Red Arrow on April 22, 2024, 10:11:26 PM
Might still be squawking Modes A & C. Tulsa Approach/Departure will know where they are with A & C, just not quite as accurate as with ADS-B. Police probably don't want regular folks tracking them.
There are folks who legitimately need to know what else is in the sky, like medical life flights, media, drone operators and pretty much every general aviation pilot.
DJI Air 3 and Mavic 3 drones, for example, include an AirSense ADS-B receiver which flash a warning on your controller whenever a manned aircraft is operating nearby.
Quote from: patric on May 07, 2024, 12:16:41 PM
There are folks who legitimately need to know what else is in the sky, like medical life flights, media, drone operators and pretty much every general aviation pilot.
DJI Air 3 and Mavic 3 drones, for example, include an AirSense ADS-B receiver which flash a warning on your controller whenever a manned aircraft is operating nearby.
Drone operators are required to yield to manned aircraft but knowing where drones are would also be useful information for manned aircraft. Equipping all drones with ADS-B Out would evidently overload the airspace system but there is an ADS-B Out available for (I guess, larger) drones.
https://uavionix.com/product/ping200x/ I believe any transponder would be required
for to get the biennial function check, same as transponders for manned aircraft.
As I understand it, recreational drones are limited to 400 ft AGL. Most general aviation isn't that low.
Remember though that in spite of misleading information, ADS-B Out is NOT required in all airspace nor in all manned aircraft. A lot of planes have it that don't actually need it because of the airspace they usually fly within.
In the Tulsa area, ADS-B Out is
required within a 5 mile radius of Tulsa Int'l Airport and within a 10 mile radius of TIA when above 2300 ft MSL. ADS-B Out is not required at Tulsa Riverside Airport. Actually, even a transponder is not required for aircraft without an engine driven electrical system. Think J-3 Piper Cub, Taylorcraft, early Aeronca Champ and a few more I cannot think of at the moment.
Quote from: Red Arrow on May 07, 2024, 03:18:24 PM
Drone operators are required to yield to manned aircraft but knowing where drones are would also be useful information for manned aircraft. Equipping all drones with ADS-B Out would evidently overload the airspace system but there is an ADS-B Out available for (I guess, larger) drones.
FAA actually doesnt allow that. Instead UAV are required to broadcast their serial number and position from takeoff to landing using Remote ID, https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-F/part-89
Quote from: Red Arrow on May 07, 2024, 03:18:24 PMAs I understand it, recreational drones are limited to 400 ft AGL. Most general aviation isn't that low.
Yes, but it happens.
Quote from: patric on May 08, 2024, 09:32:21 AM
FAA actually doesnt allow that. Instead UAV are required to broadcast their serial number and position from takeoff to landing using Remote ID, https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-F/part-89
Interesting. Almost like ADS-B Out. I presume it's on an different frequency but couldn't readily see the requirements and probably wouldn't understand the government gobbledy-gook anyway.
QuoteQuote from: Red Arrow on May 07, 2024, 02:18:24 pm
As I understand it, recreational drones are limited to 400 ft AGL. Most general aviation isn't that low.
Yes, but it happens.
Helicopters and crop dusters are generally obvious to someone keeping their UAV in sight. Someone buzzing their house will probably put their transponder in standby, assuming they have one to begin with. From your link above, it looks like the recreational UAV will report itself as being over 400 ft AGL using the Remote ID and drones operating under Part 91 will have ADS-B Out.
This looks interesting:
https://www.unmannedairspace.info/latest-news-and-information/dronetag-releases-drone-scanner-app-to-track-nearby-drone-flights-using-remote-id-data/
Quote from: Red Arrow on May 08, 2024, 12:19:35 PM
Helicopters and crop dusters are generally obvious to someone keeping their UAV in sight.
(medical) Helicopters and crop dusters arent usually trying to move undetected.
"We are trying to make the aircraft a little more stealthy," Barnhart said."How fast can you land a drone at 400 AGL?
Descend too fast and you fly into your own prop wash and you are in freefall.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_ring_state
Descend too slow and someone flies into you faster than you had the ability to respond.
Quote from: Red Arrow on May 08, 2024, 12:19:35 PM
Interesting. Almost like ADS-B Out. I presume it's on an different frequency but couldn't readily see the requirements and probably wouldn't understand the government gobbledy-gook anyway.
Helicopters and crop dusters are generally obvious to someone keeping their UAV in sight. Someone buzzing their house will probably put their transponder in standby, assuming they have one to begin with. From your link above, it looks like the recreational UAV will report itself as being over 400 ft AGL using the Remote ID and drones operating under Part 91 will have ADS-B Out.
This looks interesting:
https://www.unmannedairspace.info/latest-news-and-information/dronetag-releases-drone-scanner-app-to-track-nearby-drone-flights-using-remote-id-data/
I'm looking at getting a new drone that gets around this by not requiring remote id. It's based on weight I believe. The one I'm looking at is far too small.
Quote from: Hoss on May 28, 2024, 11:10:18 AM
I'm looking at getting a new drone that gets around this by not requiring remote id. It's based on weight I believe. The one I'm looking at is far too small.
It depends on whether you are operating in a limited definition of recreational. If it ain't recreational, or (some people think this is actually and) in a FRIA, and under 250g, you get to play the registration, and remote ID game.
It still isn't practical for avoidance with manned aircraft, but since the ARC decided that manned aircraft should yield to a delivery drone below 400 feet, dependent on whether the manned aircraft has an ADS-B beacon that the drone can pick up, there goes the whole idea of keeping us all safe. Everybody, manned and unmanned clear the air for the yet to be feasible drone delivery operations.
https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/rulemaking/committees/documents/media/UAS_BVLOS_ARC_FINAL_REPORT_03102022.pdf
And before most of the drone regulations came along, the law enforcement were doing all sorts of violating people's right to search and seizure. It's nice to know that the local law enforcement with some ex parte communication from the FAA will be doing most of the enforcement of the drone regulations.
https://www.racedayquads.com/pages/faa-legal-battle-to-save-fpv
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/09/eff-michigan-court-governments-shouldnt-be-allowed-use-drone-spy-you-without
Law enforcement in Canada interfered with a plane landing while using a drone looking for a suspect.
https://dronedj.com/2023/01/23/canada-issues-report-on-2021-police-drones-collision/
Quote from: whoatown on August 27, 2024, 09:24:00 AM
And before most of the drone regulations came along, the law enforcement were doing all sorts of violating people's right to search and seizure. It's nice to know that the local law enforcement with some ex parte communication from the FAA will be doing most of the enforcement of the drone regulations.
Still a long ways to go, as there are pockets of LE exercising authority that only the FAA has.
But even then, the Feds leave themselves open to abuse. I recall a small department in Wisconsin that convinced the FAA that they needed a 5-mile Temporary Flight Restriction around a building fire exclusively to keep media away. Looking into that, the FAA hands out TFR's like candy.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/02/ferguson-police-no-fly-restrictions-missouri-news-helicopters-michael-brown-shooting
Quote from: patric on August 27, 2024, 12:48:48 PM
Still a long ways to go, as there are pockets of LE exercising authority that only the FAA has.
But even then, the Feds leave themselves open to abuse. I recall a small department in Wisconsin that convinced the FAA that they needed a 5-mile Temporary Flight Restriction around a building fire exclusively to keep media away. Looking into that, the FAA hands out TFR's like candy.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/02/ferguson-police-no-fly-restrictions-missouri-news-helicopters-michael-brown-shooting
Look into the ones regarding Disney. That's a real eye opener. There have been attempts at legitimately getting those removed, but no luck so far. And that's where the TFRs for sporting events comes from (for drones as well), is from the Disney TFR fiasco.
Stumbled across the fine print, so posting it here. It looks like were in a grey area.
PART 91—GENERAL OPERATING AND FLIGHT RULES
§ 91.215 ATC transponder and altitude
reporting equipment and use.
* * * * *
(c) Transponder-on operation. While
in the airspace as specified in paragraph
(b) of this section or in all controlled
airspace, each person operating an
aircraft equipped with an operable ATC
transponder maintained in accordance
with § 91.413 of this part shall operate
the transponder, including Mode C
equipment if installed, and shall reply
on the appropriate code or as assigned
by ATC, unless otherwise directed by
ATC when transmitting would
jeopardize the safe execution of air
traffic control functions.
* * * * *
(f) Each person operating an aircraft
equipped with ADS–B Out must operate
this equipment in the transmit mode at
all times unless—
(1) Otherwise authorized by the FAA
when the aircraft is performing a
sensitive government mission for
national defense, homeland security,
intelligence or law enforcement
purposes and transmitting would
compromise the operations security of
the mission or pose a safety risk to the
aircraft, crew, or people and property in
the air or on the ground; or
(2) Otherwise directed by ATC when
transmitting would jeopardize the safe
execution of air traffic control functions.
The purpose of the rule is to allow law
enforcement and other security agencies
to take appropriate measures to protect
operational security and the safety of
their operators. The FAA expects that
each agency will establish its own
policies and conduct its own assessment
to determine whether the mission
should be excepted from the
transmitting requirement. Because this
relief is being granted to support
sensitive security operations, however,
the FAA anticipates that non-
transmission of ADS–B Out will not be
routinely used by agencies that have
been granted this relief.
As in the case of the other provisions of this
rule, FAA does not believe that the use
of such exemptions should become
routine, and should be limited to areas
in which such relief represents and
integral mission need of the requestor.
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2019-07-18/pdf/2019-15248.pdf
New York has basically a drone ban in effect, but for $150 you can maybe get them to approve an application for a specific time and date barring any that you may need from FAA and the waiting period for both. If they deny it, you can pay them another $150 extortion fee, and maybe they'll approve it this time.
https://www.nyc.gov/site/nypd/services/law-enforcement/permits-uas-permits.page
This isn't what the LEO is supposed to be doing with their FAA deputy status. And guess who's seeing UFOs? Can't even identify who or what they are.
The Federal Aviation Administration first implemented TCAS in 1981. Importantly, though, the system does not provide protection against aircraft that do not have an operating transponder, the FAA states.
"No survivors expected after midair collision between passenger jet and Army helicopter."
https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/plane-crash-dca-potomac-washington-dc-01-29-25/index.html
Quote from: patric on January 30, 2025, 10:29:18 AMThe Federal Aviation Administration first implemented TCAS in 1981. Importantly, though, the system does not provide protection against aircraft that do not have an operating transponder, the FAA states.
"No survivors expected after midair collision between passenger jet and Army helicopter."
https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/plane-crash-dca-potomac-washington-dc-01-29-25/index.html
The UH60 Goldtop Blackhawk was using a transponder and TCAS is an option on for them. At less than 1000 feet AGL TCAS does not function as a climb or descend notification nor does it give an audible alert.
The Blackhawk was not where it was supposed to be according to ADSB data and was climbing in altitude instead of maintaining flight level 200 feet.
Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on January 30, 2025, 09:26:31 PMThe UH60 Goldtop Blackhawk was using a transponder and TCAS is an option on for them. At less than 1000 feet AGL TCAS does not function as a climb or descend notification nor does it give an audible alert.
The Blackhawk was not where it was supposed to be according to ADSB data and was climbing in altitude instead of maintaining flight level 200 feet.
Conflicting information.
Geoffrey Thomas, aviation expert and editor of 42kft.com, said the helicopter was not broadcasting tracking information that would've been received by collision avoidance systems aboard the passenger aircraft.
https://www.reuters.com/graphics/USA-CRASH/WASHINGTONDC-AIRCRAFT/dwvkkwyzxvm/
Quote from: patric on January 31, 2025, 11:05:15 AMConflicting information.
Geoffrey Thomas, aviation expert and editor of 42kft.com, said the helicopter was not broadcasting tracking information that would've been received by collision avoidance systems aboard the passenger aircraft.
https://www.reuters.com/graphics/USA-CRASH/WASHINGTONDC-AIRCRAFT/dwvkkwyzxvm/
Seriously? Yes I know he has a 45 year background in aviation, but what he said is borderline conspiracy theory in saying "It's quite possible that the helicopter was flying a covert mission without any identification turned on."
https://www.tiktok.com/@metrouk/video/7465657291006561569 (https://www.tiktok.com/@metrouk/video/7465657291006561569)
He's also making statements that he believes the search for MH370 is dead.
Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on January 31, 2025, 12:01:53 PMSeriously? Yes I know he has a 45 year background in aviation, but what he said is borderline conspiracy theory in saying "It's quite possible that the helicopter was flying a covert mission without any identification turned on."
https://www.tiktok.com/@metrouk/video/7465657291006561569 (https://www.tiktok.com/@metrouk/video/7465657291006561569)
He's also making statements that he believes the search for MH370 is dead.
There's some talk about it [the helicopter] being flown remotely from as far away as 300 miles being previewed in DC a couple of months earlier.
Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on January 31, 2025, 12:01:53 PMSeriously? Yes I know he has a 45 year background in aviation, but what he said is borderline conspiracy theory in saying "It's quite possible that the helicopter was flying a covert mission without any identification turned on."
How is the Army turning off a transponder for a training flight a "conspiracy theory," when TPD turns them off for almost every flight?
Quote from: patric on January 31, 2025, 02:18:09 PMHow is the Army turning off a transponder for a training flight a "conspiracy theory," when TPD turns them off for almost every flight?
Military can use a different transponder than civilian, but with ADS-B, not sure if that's still the case or as a backup.
Quote from: patric on January 31, 2025, 02:18:09 PMHow is the Army turning off a transponder for a training flight a "conspiracy theory," when TPD turns them off for almost every flight?
From your earlier post on the regulations:
QuoteThe purpose of the rule is to allow law
enforcement and other security agencies
to take appropriate measures to protect
operational security and the safety of
their operators. The FAA expects that
each agency will establish its own
policies and conduct its own assessment
to determine whether the mission
should be excepted from the
transmitting requirement. Because this
relief is being granted to support
sensitive security operations, however,
the FAA anticipates that non-
transmission of ADS–B Out will not be
routinely used by agencies that have
been granted this relief.
If TPD is constantly flying without supplying ADS-B Out or transponder info then the authorization to fly should be yanked. But I have yet to see any proof other than not showing up on Flight Aware or Flight Radar 24. Even searching specifically for TPD doing this there is nothing out there. If this is true why has someone not notified the FAA?
Granted that there are times you could fly a 737 at 1500 feet AGL for hours on end doing laps around Tulsa and not interfere with anything other than noise levels.
Back to the point, I have yet to see any proof that TPD is operating dark all the time other than your claims.
As to Thomas's claims that it possibly could have been a covert black ops training mission, I think that is an absurd idea to fly a helicopter around the end of the runway at night at one of the busiest airports in the country. The Army, Navy and Air Force have plenty of areas with restricted airspace to do that kind of training.
Quote from: whoatown on January 31, 2025, 02:04:11 PMThere's some talk about it [the helicopter] being flown remotely from as far away as 300 miles being previewed in DC a couple of months earlier.
Care to provide a link to a valid source?
Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on January 31, 2025, 03:11:43 PMIf TPD is constantly flying without supplying ADS-B Out or transponder info then the authorization to fly should be yanked. But I have yet to see any proof other than not showing up on Flight Aware or Flight Radar 24. Even searching specifically for TPD doing this there is nothing out there.
Is there another plausible explanation for their transponder not showing up consistently?
Quote from: patric on January 31, 2025, 07:09:14 PMIs there another plausible explanation for their transponder not showing up consistently?
Not being an A&P mechanic all I can do is guess that they manually turn it on and off or that there is an electrical issue which I would think would ground the copter until it's fixed.
If you think they are misusing or abusing the exemption that let's them turn it off temporarily, call the FAA field office at TIA, the number is available on Google.
Quote from: patric on January 31, 2025, 07:09:14 PMIs there another plausible explanation for their transponder not showing up consistently?
Of course there is. I have had Tulsa Approach occasionally not see my transponder even though it is on and operating properly. Doesn't happen very often though.
May be possible due to low altitudes. But that is speculation on my part.
I think the professional answer was provided by the NTSB.....let's wait until the facts are in. It may be fun to speculate but that's all speculation is. I am particularly offended by El Presidente Trump's response for probable causes.
You can be sure that general aviation will be required to add avionics costing more than the total value of the aircraft even though they will never fly in the kind of airspace near DC.
One more thing (Please pardon the Detective Colombo reference), the military has transponder modes that civilian transponders do not have. (Ex USN Avionics Tech speaking). I don't know if the civilian towers have access to those modes, nor do I remember the information transmitted. It's been quite a few years.
Quote from: patric on January 31, 2025, 07:09:14 PMIs there another plausible explanation for their transponder not showing up consistently?
There are some flights watched on one of the flight tracking sites that leave an inconsistent trail. This could be problems with the ads-b equipment on board or lack of feeders in an area. Starting with mode S, they wanted transponders that couldn't be turned off at the transponder. It just added icao identifier instead of just a squak code. Of course, ads-b came later and still isn't a reliable replacement for radar. But if you're saying they are going dark, maybe they are just deliberately pulling the breaker. They didn't really want to give leos the ability to go dark with drones either except in certain cases.
Quote from: Red Arrow on January 31, 2025, 11:53:38 PMOne more thing (Please pardon the Detective Colombo reference), the military has transponder modes that civilian transponders do not have. (Ex USN Avionics Tech speaking). I don't know if the civilian towers have access to those modes, nor do I remember the information transmitted. It's been quite a few years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVH40yR6CDc
The leos met the guy that does the king training videos at gunpoint one time when he was transponder off in an area where it wasn't required. (Post 9/11)
Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on January 31, 2025, 03:28:40 PMCare to provide a link to a valid source?
https://defensescoop.com/2025/01/30/army-helicopter-black-hawk-fatal-crash-potomac-not-using-ai-sources-say/
Would be implemented with defense contractor lockheed martin.
It's funny. Last week people were were experts on how tariffs work; now they're experts on air safety. 🤷
WASHINGTON, Feb 6 (Reuters) - A key safety system was turned off on a U.S. Army helicopter that collided with an American Airlines (AAL.O) regional jet last week near Washington Reagan Airport, killing 67.Senate Commerce Committee chair Ted Cruz told reporters the Black Hawk helicopter had turned off its automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast (ADS-B), which is permitted for military aircraft.
"This was a training mission, so there was no compelling national security reason for ADS-B to be turned off," Cruz said after a briefing from the National Transportation Safety Board and Federal Aviation Administration.
In the deadliest U.S. air disaster in more than 20 years, the aircraft collided last week, with both aircraft plunging into the Potomac River. The helicopter was flying about 100 feet over the maximum allowed for that route, the NTSB said earlier.
ADS-B is an advanced surveillance technology to track aircraft location. Cruz noted the helicopter had a transponder so it would appear on radar but ADS-B is significantly more accurate.
Last week, Senator Maria Cantwell, the top Democrat on the committee, questioned why the FAA since 2018 has allowed military flights to fly with their installed ADS-B equipment off.
Cruz also said he had asked the FAA to conduct a review of helicopter routes near other congested airports.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/key-safety-system-off-army-helicopter-that-collided-with-american-airlines-jet-2025-02-06/
Interesting, this was pushed forward by a Navy pilot, Arizona Senator John McCain. So this was tucked into a bigger defense spending bill that was signed into law, HR 5515.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/5515/text (https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/5515/text)
QuoteThe FAA's action follows congressional direction included in the John S. McCain National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2019, which prevents the Department of Transportation from requiring the installation of ADS-B equipment on Department of Defense (DoD) aircraft, including fighters, bombers or other special mission aircraft. In the legislation, Congress also mandated the continued provision of air traffic services and continued access for DoD aircraft not equipped with ADS-B.
"We appreciate the special needs of the U.S. military and their support aircraft in conducting sensitive operations that require additional privacy and security considerations," said Doug Carr, NBAA vice president for regulatory and international affairs. "It's important for NBAA members to know that aircraft affected by this interim final rule will retain an alternate transponder capability, ensuring that aircraft safety systems, such as TCAS, will continue to function properly," Carr continued.
https://nbaa.org/aircraft-operations/communications-navigation-surveillance-cns/ads-b/faa-permits-ads-b-off-military-sensitive-flights/ (https://nbaa.org/aircraft-operations/communications-navigation-surveillance-cns/ads-b/faa-permits-ads-b-off-military-sensitive-flights/)
Quote from: whoatown on February 01, 2025, 11:19:18 PMhttps://defensescoop.com/2025/01/30/army-helicopter-black-hawk-fatal-crash-potomac-not-using-ai-sources-say/
Would be implemented with defense contractor lockheed martin.
So according to the article, 3 years ago Lockheed Martin did a couple of experimental flights with MX versions of a UH-60. Seems that people made a huge stretch from a couple of very controlled experimental flights to they've been conducting flights up and down the Potomac in extremely congested airspace.
§ 91.217 Data correspondence between automatically reported pressure altitude data and the pilot's altitude reference.
(a) No person may operate any automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment associated with a radar beacon transponder—
(1) When deactivation of that equipment is directed by ATC;
(2) Unless, as installed, that equipment was tested and calibrated to transmit altitude data corresponding within 125 feet (on a 95 percent probability basis) of the indicated or calibrated datum of the altimeter normally used to maintain flight altitude, with that altimeter referenced to 29.92 inches of mercury for altitudes from sea level to the maximum operating altitude of the aircraft; or
(3) Unless the altimeters and digitizers in that equipment meet the standards of TSO-C10b and TSO-C88, respectively.
(b) No person may operate any automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment associated with a radar beacon transponder or with ADS-B Out equipment unless the pressure altitude reported for ADS-B Out and Mode C/S is derived from the same source for aircraft equipped with both a transponder and ADS-B Out.
[Doc. No. 18334, 54 FR 34304, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by Amdt. 91-314, 75 FR 30193, May 28, 2010]
Red, so if I'm reading correctly from your comment and and some searching on that regulation, it means that to report ADS-B it must use the aircrafts actual altimeter and be certified accurate to within 125' based on using 29.92 ins. mercury, or sea level and certified for that particular altitude system in the aircraft. Am I at least in the park and it's not Yellowstone?
Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on February 06, 2025, 10:42:50 PMRed, so if I'm reading correctly from your comment and and some searching on that regulation, it means that to report ADS-B it must use the aircrafts actual altimeter and be certified accurate to within 125' based on using 29.92 ins. mercury, or sea level and certified for that particular altitude system in the aircraft. Am I at least in the park and it's not Yellowstone?
Not quite. The altitude source can be an encoding altimeter (with electronics to communicate with the transponder) or it can be another device called a blind encoder (also with electronics to communicate with the transponder). A blind encoder is connected to the aircraft static pressure system, same as the altimeter, but the pilot cannot see or adjust it. In either case, it must be tested every other (2) year for accuracy. Large aircraft may have some other device as part of a Flight Management System but those are beyond my knowledge base.
Quote from: Red Arrow on February 07, 2025, 12:20:41 AMNot quite. The altitude source can be an encoding altimeter (with electronics to communicate with the transponder) or it can be another device called a blind encoder (also with electronics to communicate with the transponder). A blind encoder is connected to the aircraft static pressure system, same as the altimeter, but the pilot cannot see or adjust it. In either case, it must be tested every other (2) year for accuracy. Large aircraft may have some other device as part of a Flight Management System but those are beyond my knowledge base.
Thanks, helps me kind of put the nuts and bolts together to understand it.
Quote from: dbacksfan 2.0 on February 13, 2025, 11:24:38 AMThanks, helps me kind of put the nuts and bolts together to understand it.
GPS has a similar error.
What's your altitude?
I don't know. Somewhere between the ground and the sky with a margin for error. The devices give different readings where it says I'm at. But close enough for government work.
https://citizenwatchreport.com/the-ntsbs-black-box-data-just-confirmed-what-we-all-feared-this-crash-wasnt-just-bad-luck/
Blackbox recovered from blackhawk.
Anything from altimeter malfunction to night goggles limiting vision.
Commercial jet tries unsuccessfully to make effective evasive manuever.
Quote from: whoatown on February 19, 2025, 02:09:18 PMhttps://citizenwatchreport.com/the-ntsbs-black-box-data-just-confirmed-what-we-all-feared-this-crash-wasnt-just-bad-luck/
Blackbox recovered from blackhawk.
Anything from altimeter malfunction to night goggles limiting vision.
Commercial jet tries unsuccessfully to make effective evasive manuever.
https://www.kjrh.com/news/local-news/tpd-breaks-ground-on-new-police-heliport
A new heliport to boot