Mortgage Crisis Helps Dense,Walkable Neighborhoods

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

However the anti development/ anti change crowd seem to want to stifle [Brookside] from changing too much.

Can you blame them? It's a healthy neighborhood as it is, with a range of housing types within walking distance of a business district. Why would they want it transformed into something completely different?

It can be even better. It indeed is nice now,,, for Tulsa. But just because it is relatively nice, doesnt mean it cant be much better. As a matter of fact, its already muuuch nicer now, and different, than it was even 10 years ago. These types of areas naturally evolve in many cities to become larger and better. Especially if you work to keep the walkable, pedestrian friendly nature.  As for the price range, sure it may indeed go more upscale, but what happens is the same thing that happens in other cities, another area, usually one thats run down and partly vacant, becomes the next "Brookside" and the cycle starts over again. Dont tell me there arent plenty of other areas in this city that can take on the mantle of the "next Brookside"... 6th and Peoria, Whittier Square, etc.

However, part of my previous post was to point out that basically IF you want to take some of the infill pressure off of Brookside, help create a different area. Get a different area started, especially downtown. Once you have an active, bustling little street down there, people and developers will turn their attention to that area.

I suppose my choice of the words ...change "too much"... is where one could definitely have some arguments. What I would consider "too much" seems to be a very different "too much" for many of the anti-infill crowd in mid-town and Brookside. You cant build midrise or highrise in Brookside anyway, and I dont want it to either. I would prefer downtown grow to boot. But if all we have is Brookside and Cherry Street as attractive, walkable areas to build in and live in, thats where the development pressures are going to be. If you stifle it there without having an outlet somewhere else, your really going to be holding Tulsa back. You can either allow those areas to evolve more as they want to, or try and get another area started.

Hopefully if the Baseball Stadium goes down in the Greenwood/Brady Arts district and we get the museum and some more living in that area as well, then it will begin to take off. The Pearl District would also be a great area to have this kind of infill. But at the moment 6th street east of Peoria is run down and stagnant. If those little buildings had one or two sidewalk cafes and some shops, I guarantee you it could easily become the next Brookside type area and be able to develope larger urban living options leaving Brookside to grow a bit slower with more smaller apartments and such.

A good chunk of developers for urban living often want to cater to a more "upscale" crowd. They need to have a nice area to build in and prefer to have their developments be a certain size in order to make the price points work, especially here in Tulsa. It cant all be small Metro Loft type developments. Until there is another place to put some of the larger developments "larger in the sense for Brookside", we are either not as likely to get them, or the pressure will be to try and squeeze them into areas like Brookside and Cherry Street.

Brookside is going to completely change anyway. No matter which scenario happens. Its all zoned to have 3 story buildings even now isnt it? So thats what your gonna see.  We can of course guide that change, keep larger developments out, try and maintain the walkable character. But it is going to change. But it would be nice to try and get some other areas started that would welcome the larger developments and take some of that development pressure off of Brookside.

[MichaelBates]

Artist, your cavalier attitude toward the integrity of Brookside is not likely to go over well with the people who own homes and businesses there.

Before you presume to redesign Brookside to your liking, I would urge you to read the Brookside infill plan, which represents years of work and negotiation by city planners, homeowners, and business owners. It was incorporated into the comprehensive plan, and it is supposed to guide zoning decisions and public infrastructure in the district.

Most of Brookside is zoned for single family homes, not for apartment buildings or townhouses. The infill plan allows for higher-density residential development within the "business area" -- the strip along Peoria that is now mostly zoned CH.

I know you mean well, and I agree with you that we need more walkable neighborhoods. I disagree that it's somehow my responsibility to get something new going to take the pressure off of Brookside. There has already been considerable public investment downtown, in Whittier Square, and around 6th & Peoria. Some private investment has followed, but the big developers are holding back.

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Originally posted by MichaelBates

Dont tell me there arent plenty of other areas in this city that can take on the mantle of the "next Brookside"... 6th and Peoria, Whittier Square, etc.

However, part of my previous post was to point out that basically IF you want to take some of the infill pressure off of Brookside, help create a different area. Get a different area started, especially downtown. Once you have an active, bustling little street down there, people and developers will turn their attention to that area.

I suppose my choice of the words ...change "too much"... is where one could definitely have some arguments. What I would consider "too much" seems to be a very different "too much" for many of the anti-infill crowd in mid-town and Brookside. You cant build midrise or highrise in Brookside anyway, and I dont want it to either. I would prefer downtown grow to boot. But if all we have is Brookside and Cherry Street as attractive, walkable areas to build in and live in, thats where the development pressures are going to be. If you stifle it there without having an outlet somewhere else, your really going to be holding Tulsa back. You can either allow those areas to evolve more as they want to, or try and get another area started.

Hopefully if the Baseball Stadium goes down in the Greenwood/Brady Arts district and we get the museum and some more living in that area as well, then it will begin to take off. The Pearl District would also be a great area to have this kind of infill. But at the moment 6th street east of Peoria is run down and stagnant. If those little buildings had one or two sidewalk cafes and some shops, I guarantee you it could easily become the next Brookside type area and be able to develope larger urban living options leaving Brookside to grow a bit slower with more smaller apartments and such.

A good chunk of developers for urban living often want to cater to a more "upscale" crowd. They need to have a nice area to build in and prefer to have their developments be a certain size in order to make the price points work, especially here in Tulsa. It cant all be small Metro Loft type developments. Until there is another place to put some of the larger developments "larger in the sense for Brookside", we are either not as likely to get them, or the pressure will be to try and squeeze them into areas like Brookside and Cherry Street.

Brookside is going to completely change anyway. No matter which scenario happens. Its all zoned to have 3 story buildings even now isnt it? So thats what your gonna see.  We can of course guide that change, keep larger developments out, try and maintain the walkable character. But it is going to change. But it would be nice to try and get some other areas started that would welcome the larger developments and take some of that development pressure off of Brookside.

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by Red Arrow


Why pick on Brookside? How about taking some of the huge surface parking lots downtown and building the mid rise condos that "everyone" wants. They would be right next to the real action. If public transit cannot keep up with development, build some high rise parking garages for a few years. Aerial views of downtown show a lot of misused space.

Progress is in the eye of the beholder.  I am not against the high rises.  Just put them where they are wanted without forcing them on a still viable neighborhood that doesn't.  All I see in attempting to change Brookside to rows of highrises is that downtown is hopeless (Or maybe too expensive? Sound like the excuse for suburban sprawl?) so let's make a new inner core downtown somewhere else. Seems like highrise sprawl to me. Downtown would still be empty.

I don't live anywhere near Brookside, nor do I have any finacial interest there. I see a neighborhood that needs a little fixing in some spots. It doesn't need a wholesale makeover when there is plenty of room elsewhere.  

Go ahead - shoot. I just put on my body armor.

Keen observation, Red Arrow.  There's nearly one million people in the metro; trying to cram all the potential "urbanites" into Brookside and Cherry Street is unrealistic, and it'll certainly end up being unaffordable.  Why try to shoehorn it all into these places?  

Why not create TEN NEW Brooksides?

[tim huntzinger]

As a soon-to-be-ex-Brooksider surrounded by rentals, direlect properties, and overbuilt McMansions, increasing the density vis-a-vis apartments and condos would not be that big a deal and may even help the hood.  The NIMBY folk with their stupid 'perversemidtown.com' signs can take a leap.

I could have gotten frustrated and sold my lot to a developer and basically made no money on the investment, but did not.  We hung on for the right buyer for a year and finally found one who thought it was a great deal.

If that dude thought suburban punks are bad, wait until he moves into a neighborhood that is marginally blighted but affordable.  Great price, but he is gonna be cowering in his dumpy tear-down and still may not make any money when he goes to sell.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

Artist, your cavalier attitude toward the integrity of Brookside is not likely to go over well with the people who own homes and businesses there.

Before you presume to redesign Brookside to your liking, I would urge you to read the Brookside infill plan, which represents years of work and negotiation by city planners, homeowners, and business owners. It was incorporated into the comprehensive plan, and it is supposed to guide zoning decisions and public infrastructure in the district.

Most of Brookside is zoned for single family homes, not for apartment buildings or townhouses. The infill plan allows for higher-density residential development within the "business area" -- the strip along Peoria that is now mostly zoned CH.

I know you mean well, and I agree with you that we need more walkable neighborhoods. I disagree that it's somehow my responsibility to get something new going to take the pressure off of Brookside. There has already been considerable public investment downtown, in Whittier Square, and around 6th & Peoria. Some private investment has followed, but the big developers are holding back.

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Originally posted by MichaelBates

Dont tell me there arent plenty of other areas in this city that can take on the mantle of the "next Brookside"... 6th and Peoria, Whittier Square, etc.

However, part of my previous post was to point out that basically IF you want to take some of the infill pressure off of Brookside, help create a different area. Get a different area started, especially downtown. Once you have an active, bustling little street down there, people and developers will turn their attention to that area.

I suppose my choice of the words ...change "too much"... is where one could definitely have some arguments. What I would consider "too much" seems to be a very different "too much" for many of the anti-infill crowd in mid-town and Brookside. You cant build midrise or highrise in Brookside anyway, and I dont want it to either. I would prefer downtown grow to boot. But if all we have is Brookside and Cherry Street as attractive, walkable areas to build in and live in, thats where the development pressures are going to be. If you stifle it there without having an outlet somewhere else, your really going to be holding Tulsa back. You can either allow those areas to evolve more as they want to, or try and get another area started.

Hopefully if the Baseball Stadium goes down in the Greenwood/Brady Arts district and we get the museum and some more living in that area as well, then it will begin to take off. The Pearl District would also be a great area to have this kind of infill. But at the moment 6th street east of Peoria is run down and stagnant. If those little buildings had one or two sidewalk cafes and some shops, I guarantee you it could easily become the next Brookside type area and be able to develope larger urban living options leaving Brookside to grow a bit slower with more smaller apartments and such.

A good chunk of developers for urban living often want to cater to a more "upscale" crowd. They need to have a nice area to build in and prefer to have their developments be a certain size in order to make the price points work, especially here in Tulsa. It cant all be small Metro Loft type developments. Until there is another place to put some of the larger developments "larger in the sense for Brookside", we are either not as likely to get them, or the pressure will be to try and squeeze them into areas like Brookside and Cherry Street.

Brookside is going to completely change anyway. No matter which scenario happens. Its all zoned to have 3 story buildings even now isnt it? So thats what your gonna see.  We can of course guide that change, keep larger developments out, try and maintain the walkable character. But it is going to change. But it would be nice to try and get some other areas started that would welcome the larger developments and take some of that development pressure off of Brookside.

I have heard about the Brookside infill plan and was basically repeating what some of the people on Brookside have told me about what was acceptable. I was also going on what one would assume would be the logical pattern of infill for such an area.

My "redesign" if you will, of Brookside would, with some exceptions be... The area along Peoria and the major intersections would allow for 3 story buildings with similar set backs. Most of them mixed use. Then right behind that row perhaps some more of the same here and there, an extra couple shops, restaurants, small businesses to add depth, and also 3 story living.

Primarily businesses along Peoria and the main streets with some darting in here and there, but mainly behind the businesses about a blocks worth of 3 story apartments and such. This would add enough density to make the area more sustainable and enable more people to live in the area to take advantage of its walkable nature. You want to enable as many people as possible to live in pedestrian friendly areas as you can and it would still keep the cozy feel of Brookside. The higher density block of apartment homes would also act as a buffer to the more noisy and busier main street.  

The Brookside plan appears to be quite close to this scenario, except that it doesnt appear to allow for an adequate row of higher density, 3 story apartments behind the main strip.

They also seem to contradict themselves to an extent. On the one hand they say 3 story is ok, but on the other they want to preserve a lot of the existing buildings there. They want to pick and choose which buildings stay and which is ok to redevelope. Certainly one could agree that redoing the Blockbuster site with a 2 or 3 story building right up to the sidewalk would be nice, but I also think that the little strip on the east side across from the cleaners would be great to redevelop as 2 or 3 stories,,, not to mention the cleaners and the old Delta Cafe would be much nicer if they were all redone as nice little brick buildings with cafes, shops, etc on the first floors and perhaps offices on the second or living on the second and third.



It may not be anyones responsibility to take the pressure off of Brookside... But it would help. I think we will have done just about as much as we can do to spur infill and development in those other areas and ultimately it will have to happen of its own accord otherwise you end up with fake "Bricktown" type areas like in OKC that may or may not really make it.

Plus we do want to see Tulsa thrive and grow, but on the one hand we say,,, well this area will grow if the market wants it to we shouldnt try to regulate and force things to be where they dont want to be "downtown, Whittier Square, 6th st, etc." Stay out of the way and let the market decide. But then we constrain what the market wants to do in the areas where it does want to grow.

It seems reasonable that if you want to constrain market driven growth in one area it shouldnt be too much to ask that there be at least some continued effort to encourage that type of growth to go to another area in the city. We do want the type of growth that is beginning to push to happen in Brookside. Once it takes off in those other areas it will really be able to go gangbusters. Its just that horribly tricky part of getting it started.  

One way or the other we are manipulating the market. One way or the other we do want continued growth in the city.

[booWorld]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

quote:Originally posted by MichaelBates

Artist, your cavalier attitude toward the integrity of Brookside is not likely to go over well with the people who own homes and businesses there.

Before you presume to redesign Brookside to your liking, I would urge you to read the Brookside infill plan, which represents years of work and negotiation by city planners, homeowners, and business owners. It was incorporated into the comprehensive plan, and it is supposed to guide zoning decisions and public infrastructure in the district.

I have heard about the Brookside infill plan and was basically repeating what some of the people on Brookside have told me about what was acceptable...

Primarily businesses along Peoria and the main streets with some darting in here and there, but mainly behind the businesses about a blocks worth of 3 story apartments and such. This would add enough density to make the area more sustainable and enable more people to live in the area to take advantage of its walkable nature. You want to enable as many people as possible to live in pedestrian friendly areas as you can and it would still keep the cozy feel of Brookside.

I notice that bricks and textured paving are recommended for sidewalks and crosswalks in the Brookside Plan.  That's a bad idea.  Those types of pavements are relatively expensive when compared to traditional concrete and asphalt pavement.  

Bricks and brick-like concrete pavers have failed downtown, they have failed at OSU-Tulsa along Greenwood Avenue, and they have failed in the crosswalks along Peoria in Brookside.  Rough pavements create an environment which is less pedestrian friendly, not more so.  Those types of rough walking surfaces are a waste of precious tax dollars.  They don't help to create a positive character for Brookside.

[JoeMommaBlake]

I don't know if there is a certain someone to whom we can assign responsibility to develop new areas of town, but I'd like to suggest something.

11th Street is a potential gem. It is formerly route 66 and has some great buildings. It has a great residential area to the south of it and provides a great sandwich effect to the residential area that walks cherry street.

Furthermore, the previously mentioned 6th street is awesome. The houses in that neighborhood can be bought for cheap right now and have great potential as well. The commercial spaces on 6th street are also ripe for development.

There are several factors that make 6th and 11th appealing development opportunities.

A homogeneous midtown and downtown area could be amazing and the core of Tulsa's future. I like to imagine a time where brookside flows to the Woodward park area, which flows to the Utica square area, which flows to Cherry Street, which flows to 18th and Boston and to 11th street, which connects to the Pearl District, which connects TU to Downtown...

Public transit that flows constantly and regularly between these largely sustainable and walkable areas could become an appealing destination for suburbanites and an appealing place to live for those who want to be in the middle of the action.

I drive up 6th street all the time and dream about what it can be. The Pearl District has so much going for it and can become a great place to live and shop and hang out. I for one will take on the responsibility of developing new areas.

If people who are looking to buy new houses and who think that they might one day want to live in a neighborhood close to downtown will simply invest 100k in to a home right now in the Pearl district, (even if it's only as a rental for now) they may someday have a house worth 200k in a neighborhood they can feel good about living in.

It's just going to take some time and some people willing to part with some cash.

You can buy nice big houses in the Pearl District right now for around 50k...If you put 30-40k in to them, you'll have great, remodeled homes in a neighborhood that skirts a growing downtown....and you'll be doing your part to make Tulsa better.

So...there was a guy on another thread looking for a place to buy a house - I say buy one in the Pearl District and buy another one in a place you can stand to live for a few years.

...then in a few years, when 6th Street is developed and the neighborhood has turned around..move in.

Regular people can do a great deal towards making Tulsa better, they just have to want to...and they have to feel a little bit of the responsibility to do it.