All Souls moving to East Village?

[Teatownclown]

You really shouldn't speak of other's faith when you don't know what you are talking about. The Unitarian congregation has many who carry bibles and the sermons often talk of Jesus and God. There are many Catholics who feel that they can't go to their church because they got divorced or Baptists who feel they aren't as welcome in their church because they are gay. There are many atheists and many agnostics as well.

Many of Reverend Carlton Pearson's congregation joined All Souls after he preached about Universalism. He believed that we are all universally saved and God is too good to damn them just because they didn't profess their lives to his Son. Many of his congregation left him and many of them joined All Souls.

All Souls is a church that just accepts everybody without demanding they profess to a certain religious credd.

Yeah yeah yeah....love you Mr. America!

does Dawg speak to you?

[heironymouspasparagus]

This is an unimproved grassy lot that hasn't been in play before. They will build a beautiful building and bring people downtown all day Sunday and multiple nights a week. They have a large, wealthy congregation that will look for places to eat after services. They are going create many jobs to build the $16 million church.

Yet, on TulsaNow, you guys act as if they are stealing food out of your baby's mouth. They won't tear down any Nordam buildings, There wasn't any strip clubs wanting to move into the area, and they are taking out ultra low value property out of tax rolls. Nothing has happened within two blocks of their site for two decades.

Why don't we embrace downtown investment rather than always finding fault?

I think you are kind of missing the real point behind all the negative commentary.  And first, let me just say that I like a lot of what I read the Unitarians are all about - it seems I remember reading somewhere that one of their points is they are the Church OF Jesus Christ rather than the Church ABOUT Jesus Christ.  (I like that comment a lot and of all the churches I have attended, only the Salvation Army seems to be walking the walk, getting close to that ideal - and no, I haven't been to All Souls yet.)

Anyway - the back story, or what is being said behind the words you get to hear is;
"There are already a bunch of churches downtown, so we really don't need any more taking up room that we can put a bar or restaurant on, and they really aren't a church anyway - more of a half baked religion like the Cargo Cult or Mormonism."

[AquaMan]

There is certainly more than one or two points involved here. You can't blame a church for wanting to be near where the young, impressionable, wealth producing, disposable income owning, active, people are congregating. These are the folks who will operate their future. Whether you like their religious orientation or not, downtown is a great "farming" area for them. 

They also benefit from not having to deal with traffic problems that suburban churches face. All Souls is wise to consider trading in a high $sq ft property for a lower $sq ft property that allows them growth opportunities as well.

Too bad about the fact that another potential tax producing property becomes exempt, but it was exempt in Brookside as well and considering some business will shift to the downtown area is certainly better than nothing.

[RecycleMichael]

Anyway - the back story, or what is being said behind the words you get to hear is;
"There are already a bunch of churches downtown, so we really don't need any more taking up room that we can put a bar or restaurant on, and they really aren't a church anyway - more of a half baked religion like the Cargo Cult or Mormonism."

You are not the expert on what a church is.

You have just insulted my faith and thus insulted part of who I am. You have also changed my opinion of you forever.

[dbacks fan]

I find this very interesting. Several people complained when the FDR building was demolished that the building should be repurposed to help develop downtown. It was discussed here that the building was not structurally sound, and so many whined that it will sit as a dead spot for years. Now the people who own the land gifted it to their church to build on using church funds to do so, and people are whining that this is not what they want there. This is just so typical of people in Tulsa to want something, and then when something is being done they b!tch about it because it's not what they want. Just seems typical of Tulsans.

[AquaMan]

You got that right. We have to have two Christmas Parades, one for real Christians and one for Christians who aren't so intolerant along with everyone else who simply enjoys the holiday!

[heironymouspasparagus]

You are not the expert on what a church is.

You have just insulted my faith and thus insulted part of who I am. You have also changed my opinion of you forever.

??
There was no insult there - it was a 'sample' statement of the thoughts going on in the minds of those you were saying were complaining that the Unitarians were trying to take food out of children's mouths.  How did you read that otherwise??

If you are Unitarian - well, I certainly did not slam them.  I specifically mentioned several things I like about them.

If you are Mormon and think that was a slam - please read it again - the part you quoted.  It is NOT an insult.  It is an expression of what so many in this country think of Mormonism.  Like the ones who support Rick Perry and the way they talk about it when disparaging Romney...  And those are NOT my personal feelings about it.

If you are member of the Cargo Cult, well I think we need better education in the public schools - more exposure to technology.

Or were you just kidding?  Hard to tell with so little inflection in type.

[DTowner]

I don't much care about the theology of All Souls, my concern is downtown development.  While in the short term this will turn vacant land into something, I don't think it is in the long-term best interest of downtown to have more churches.  That's not because I'm opposed to churches, I just don't think they have sufficient 7 day a week use to help create a thriving and vibrant neighborhood.  While All Souls may have some additional events (do they still have the concert series?) that are not on Sunday mornings or Wednesday nights, there is still a lot of empty time during the week. 

I'm not "opposed" to this development, but it doesn't make me excited and I do not think it will have much spill over effect in the area around it.

[rdj]

What if All Souls were to develop a multi-story housing project on their site, overlooking the Land Legacy park, for their aging parishioners to inhabit?

Would that make you feel better about the project?

[jacobi]

As obnoxiously-wishy-washy, hippy-dippy, white-liberal-guilt-having as All Souls can be, I think that unlike other chrches downtown grow by destroying buildings and turnign them into parking lots, and All Souls will probs not do the same.  We don't need another building destroyed so that First bab-dist can have a suburban style porte cachee.  I think All Souls will be far more likely to do something like first presb. and develop a church campus that is compatable with an urban environment.

Now if we can just convince First bab-dist, Trinity, FUMC, BAUMC, Holy Family, and the 2-3 others I can't of off the top of my head, to develop beyond parking lots.

[DTowner]

What if All Souls were to develop a multi-story housing project on their site, overlooking the Land Legacy park, for their aging parishioners to inhabit?

Would that make you feel better about the project?

That would be better than just a church, but a senior living center doesn't scream vibrant urban development to me. 

[dbacks fan]

I found an interesting article on developing a "vibrant" urban area http://www.worldscibooks.com/etextbook/7398/7398_chap01.pdf, and in reading the article I notice that some of the references for this date back 20 to 30 years, which goes back to a time when no one gave a rat's donkey about downtown. Most cities started their redevolpment in the 80's like Kansas City, Dallas, Phoenix, and several others, meanwhile no one in Tulsa gave a damn. So as I have said before, Tulsa is behind the curve, and all this whining about the churches in downtown is part and parcel to the fact that Oklahoma is under the buckle of the bible belt, always has and always will be. I would rather have All Souls develop the site than to let it sit empty. With them developing it you will get more people, even if it's only two days a week, that are downtown that might not normally go. And those people may decide to go eat some where there after services, and as mor shopping and other businesses develop, you will get more people doing things downtown.



(off of my soap box now)

[rdj]

As obnoxiously-wishy-washy, hippy-dippy, white-liberal-guilt-having as All Souls can be, I think that unlike other chrches downtown grow by destroying buildings and turnign them into parking lots, and All Souls will probs not do the same.  We don't need another building destroyed so that First bab-dist can have a suburban style porte cachee.  I think All Souls will be far more likely to do something like first presb. and develop a church campus that is compatable with an urban environment.

Now if we can just convince First bab-dist, Trinity, FUMC, BAUMC, Holy Family, and the 2-3 others I can't of off the top of my head, to develop beyond parking lots.

Is there a religion that you don't want to offend?  Just because someone professes a certain faith doesn't mean they can't be supportive of good development.

IMO, Tulsa is lucky to still have a vibrant religious community downtown.  In many cities the downtown churches are boarded up and left for the suburbs during "White-Flight".

[DTowner]

I found an interesting article on developing a "vibrant" urban area http://www.worldscibooks.com/etextbook/7398/7398_chap01.pdf, and in reading the article I notice that some of the references for this date back 20 to 30 years, which goes back to a time when no one gave a rat's donkey about downtown. Most cities started their redevolpment in the 80's like Kansas City, Dallas, Phoenix, and several others, meanwhile no one in Tulsa gave a damn. So as I have said before, Tulsa is behind the curve, and all this whining about the churches in downtown is part and parcel to the fact that Oklahoma is under the buckle of the bible belt, always has and always will be. I would rather have All Souls develop the site than to let it sit empty. With them developing it you will get more people, even if it's only two days a week, that are downtown that might not normally go. And those people may decide to go eat some where there after services, and as mor shopping and other businesses develop, you will get more people doing things downtown.



(off of my soap box now)

If you told me 10 years ago All Souls (or any church) was going to build downtown, I would have been excited that someone believed in Tulsa's downtown future enough to make an investment.  The fact that this does not seem so great to me now is more a reflection of how far we've come, even though we've got a long way to go.  Tulsa sat on its hands while cities like Dallas and KC began to renew their downtowns, but that does not mean we should be thrilled like a shy and insecure child just because somebody gave us a little attention.

In the article you cited it says key elements for urban liveability are: attractive public spaces; walkable; mixed use; higher density; affordable housing; and vibrant, exciting, sociable human-scaled pedestrian experience.  It also described the need to have streets and sidewalks in constant use.  I don't see a church adding much to any of those factors for downtown Tulsa and that is why I don't think it is a best use for the space.

As to the "sitting empty" argument - yes, I would rather see that spot sit empty a few more years and get a great use than one that is only so so.  All of the downtown development I hope to see cannot and will not happen instantaneously.  

In the end, of course, doesn't matter what my opinon on this matter is as All Souls apparently has the money and inclination to build downtown.  I hope they do a great job.

[RecycleMichael]

I just don't think they have sufficient 7 day a week use to help create a thriving and vibrant neighborhood.  While All Souls may have some additional events (do they still have the concert series?) that are not on Sunday mornings or Wednesday nights, there is still a lot of empty time during the week. 

Here is a link to the calendar at All Souls

https://www.google.com/calendar/hosted/allsoulschurch.org/embed?src=allsoulschurch.org_cjsdlkjdmufkb0d8kpupkevmb8@group.calendar.google.com&ctz=America/Chicago+&gsessionid=OK

This church has seven days a week and seven nights a week stuff happening.