Wish list for downtown...

[LandArchPoke]

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but no one who visits OKC seems to care how "authentic" Bricktown is.  Their money still spends and they leave the city with an impression of an energetic and up & coming city.

I was in a meeting recently with several colleagues (who office in OKC) as well as some out of state business guests.  The guests mentioned that it was their first time to Tulsa and they were surprised how little there was to do in downtown, it seemed to be empty at night (they were staying at the Mayo).  I tried to deflect a little, mentioning the Blue Dome area but I really didn't get very far in convinvcing them that Tulsa was on the rise.  

To add insult to injury, they then mentioned to my OKC colleagues how much better and nicer OKC was since the last time they were there, because they had been there just weeks before for the first time in years.  They even mentioned how super clean downtown seemed and how vibrant it was. I'm surprised the conversation wasn't actually more awkward than it was because basically they just insulted "Tulsa" to her  face and then turned around and started flirting with the more "popular" one.

We have to be honest here, downtown is still where the vast majority of our out of town guests end up when they visit due to business meetings, conferences and events.  They leave downtown with an "overall" impression of our city, fair or not.  

In my opinion, we had better start giving Tulsa's downtown more than just some different shades of lipstick if we want to completely recharge her sex life.

To avoid derailing this topic to an OKC vs Tulsa thing. Bricktown does wonder's for a visitors impression of OKC however all my friends that live and are from OKC HATE it and never go out there, it's driven a lot on tourists. Tulsa's downtown is still a few years behind equaling the vibrancy of OKC's Bricktown area but when a lot of the Brady and Blue Dome project come online in the next year or two downtown is going to feel even vastly different from where it is now. You should have just challenged them to visit again and also to check out Cherry Street and Brookside (area's that have just as much vibrancy as Bricktown).

The problem is they were staying in the Mayo, and unless there's a concert at the BOk there isn't much on that side of downtown going on. Similar to if they stayed in the Colcord (i think that's the name by the devon tower) they would think downtown OKC was dead. If we plopped a Hampton Inn in the middle of the Blue Dome and that's where they were staying the impression of downtown would have been much different.  

[AquaMan]

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but no one who visits OKC seems to care how "authentic" Bricktown is.  Their money still spends and they leave the city with an impression of an energetic and up & coming city.

I was in a meeting recently with several colleagues (who office in OKC) as well as some out of state business guests.  The guests mentioned that it was their first time to Tulsa and they were surprised how little there was to do in downtown, it seemed to be empty at night (they were staying at the Mayo).  I tried to deflect a little, mentioning the Blue Dome area but I really didn't get very far in convinvcing them that Tulsa was on the rise.  

To add insult to injury, they then mentioned to my OKC colleagues how much better and nicer OKC was since the last time they were there, because they had been there just weeks before for the first time in years.  They even mentioned how super clean downtown seemed and how vibrant it was. I'm surprised the conversation wasn't actually more awkward than it was because basically they just insulted "Tulsa" to her  face and then turned around and started flirting with the more "popular" one.

We have to be honest here, downtown is still where the vast majority of our out of town guests end up when they visit due to business meetings, conferences and events.  They leave downtown with an "overall" impression of our city, fair or not.  

In my opinion, we had better start giving Tulsa's downtown more than just some different shades of lipstick if we want to completely recharge her sex life.

And that's reality. When people visit, and they usually do stay downtown, they don't say,"Hey, we're impressed with your really smart, slow development that seems oriented to a density that doesn't exist. OKC is a lot more fun and interesting to us as visitors but a few years from now you guys are going to rock." No, they react like your guests did. As far as Bricktown not being popular with the locals, well, my friends living in Florida seldom visit the beach. Go figure.

So, are we doing this stuff for ourselves? If so then that's a plan. And that requires defining a slice of our static population.  We then don't much care what visitors think. But if not, then we're missing stuff that visitors, potential newcomers and metro cities have come to expect. "I'm here. Show me something." We need some kind of major identifying feature.

I love the idea of authentic trolleys, expanded education opportunities etc but the truth is those are things we should be working on regardless of what way we want downtown to progress. The day Tulsa makes serious plans for an electric railed trolley we've arrived. I can't see that happening for awhile even though it makes sense.

[LandArchPoke]

And that's reality. When people visit, and they usually do stay downtown, they don't say,"Hey, we're impressed with your really smart, slow development that seems oriented to a density that doesn't exist. OKC is a lot more fun and interesting to us as visitors but a few years from now you guys are going to rock." No, they react like your guests did. As far as Bricktown not being popular with the locals, well, my friends living in Florida seldom visit the beach. Go figure.

So, are we doing this stuff for ourselves? If so then that's a plan. And that requires defining a slice of our static population.  We then don't much care what visitors think. But if not, then we're missing stuff that visitors, potential newcomers and metro cities have come to expect. "I'm here. Show me something." We need some kind of major identifying feature.

I love the idea of authentic trolleys, expanded education opportunities etc but the truth is those are things we should be working on regardless of what way we want downtown to progress. The day Tulsa makes serious plans for an electric railed trolley we've arrived. I can't see that happening for awhile even though it makes sense.

I may ask this question, because this is something that's important to identify.

What makes Austin, Portland, or whatever other city that people look at as "cool" and fun to visit?

For Austin I would say it's SXSW, the "weird" vibe Austin has, 6th Street.

Vancouver is one of my favorite cities and the reason I loved it was more of the outdoors feeling the entire city had, the walkability of the city, and the amazing transit system it had.

So is one identifying thing going to change Tulsa and help identify it with visitors? That's a tough question but the route we are going with the increase of nightlife and entertainment options in the Blue Dome/Brady which will be our version of Bricktown - 6th Street type place is well in motion in Tulsa. These things just don't happen over night it takes time. If you don't allow them to grow in the right way you have the disaster that is South Bricktown. If we create a vibrant walkable district that in turns becomes our thing to market to people. I think in 3-4 years from now the Blue Dome/Greenwood/Brady will blow the Bricktown area out of the water. Look at the last few years, has much happened in Bricktown? No, it's pretty stagnant because it's not a great place locals like to visit. There isn't a huge demand for residential, retail and other amenities which is why those things are going in to the north in the Deep Deuce and Midtown area. So I think the "stuff we are doing for ourselves" will in turn become something the attracts visitors. Portland and Austin have nothing flashly like Bricktown yet people flock to those places.

Honestly I think the biggest blow to Tulsa in the last 5 years was the death of DFest. That was doing leaps and bounds to change the perception of Tulsa for visitors and the younger generation. We need something like this back in Tulsa ASAP.

It's all a revolving cycle. If we had better educational opportunities we could attract more young professionals that in turn increase the demand for downtown entertainment, housing and so on that attract businesses looking to expand. These people in turn support events like DFest that bring in crowds that go "this place would be fun to live" that then enroll in our colleges, look for jobs here and so on.

I'll say it again I think the loss of DFest was a huge blow to changing Tulsa's image.

[AquaMan]

Things like D-fest, come and they go. They tend to burn out the operators and the public is pretty fickle about them. The biggest events that have lasted in Tulsa are Mayfest, Oktoberfest and TulsaRun. Hardly differentiates us though. OKC has a funky little Halloween parade that is pretty cool. Can't remember the name. We have BooHaHa. We get some new festivals but those are all events.

What I am looking for is an organic (homegrown), permanent identifier that screams...Tulsa... not the Tulsa of past or the Tulsa that looks like Portland or Austin or the Tulsa that its citizens can't afford. Just something that most Tulsans could look at and say, yeah, that's us. We do that. It doesn't have to be, shouldn't be, a Bricktown.

[ZYX]

Things like D-fest, come and they go. They tend to burn out the operators and the public is pretty fickle about them. The biggest events that have lasted in Tulsa are Mayfest, Oktoberfest and TulsaRun. Hardly differentiates us though. OKC has a funky little Halloween parade that is pretty cool. Can't remember the name. We have BooHaHa. We get some new festivals but those are all events.

What I am looking for is an organic (homegrown), permanent identifier that screams...Tulsa... not the Tulsa of past or the Tulsa that looks like Portland or Austin or the Tulsa that its citizens can't afford. Just something that most Tulsans could look at and say, yeah, that's us. We do that. It doesn't have to be, shouldn't be, a Bricktown.

And that is happening. It takes time to develop perfection. If we try to build it quickly it will SUCK and end up a huge disaster. In five years I think we will begin to see the true character of Tulsa really shine.

Anything that is worth having, has to at least be worth waiting for.

[LandArchPoke]

Things like D-fest, come and they go. They tend to burn out the operators and the public is pretty fickle about them. The biggest events that have lasted in Tulsa are Mayfest, Oktoberfest and TulsaRun. Hardly differentiates us though. OKC has a funky little Halloween parade that is pretty cool. Can't remember the name. We have BooHaHa. We get some new festivals but those are all events.

What I am looking for is an organic (homegrown), permanent identifier that screams...Tulsa... not the Tulsa of past or the Tulsa that looks like Portland or Austin or the Tulsa that its citizens can't afford. Just something that most Tulsans could look at and say, yeah, that's us. We do that. It doesn't have to be, shouldn't be, a Bricktown.

I guess I'm trying to understand what you consider something unique to Tulsa that would identify us as a city, are you speaking as in something tangible or intangible? Can you give us an example of another city that you think has an identifying feature that is "unique to ____"

My example was Austin and that would be the music festivals are the first thing that pop into my mind, along with 6th street, the University clock tower at UT, Congress Ave.

Seattle: Space Needle, Pike Place Market

San Fran: Golden Gate    LA: Hollywood Sign

And that is happening. It takes time to develop perfection. If we try to build it quickly it will SUCK and end up a huge disaster. In five years I think we will begin to see the true character of Tulsa really shine.

Anything that is worth having, has to at least be worth waiting for.

I would strongly agree with your statement ZYX. I feel like it is already in progress.

I think by adding the universities/ student population to downtown we can greatly accelerate more quality design and development downtown by giving the market more demand. This in turn gives more demand for more retail downtown, more clubs/bars, more art gallerias, more housing, a downtown market, or really whatever you could think to put downtown.

With increased development and exposure of downtown you will see things like the Blue Dome even as small as it is, the Cain's, the Brady Theater, Boston Avenue corridor, the BOk Center all become this more national imagine and "identifier" to Tulsa that is unique to us. It just need more time to get to that point. These are all things that you can't find in another city (Bricktown OKC < Riverwalk San Antonio and that won't change) We need to nuture these icons of Tulsa and allow quality development to infill around them to allow it to become something that will be identifiable outside the region. 

I may be confused at what you are trying to get at though AquaMan, do you have an example of what you mean from another city (not that we should copy them) but it would help my thinking process?

[Teatownclown]

And that is happening. It takes time to develop perfection. If we try to build it quickly it will SUCK and end up a huge disaster. In five years I think we will begin to see the true character of Tulsa really shine.

Anything that is worth having, has to at least be worth waiting for.

Seriously, everyone needs to be focusing on our aerospace jobs which could be shoved over to OKC or worse, terminated.

Keep your eyes on our primary jobs and try not to forget, downtown needs a miracle (you know, like Devon) everyday....

[LandArchPoke]

Seriously, everyone needs to be focusing on our aerospace jobs which could be shoved over to OKC or worse, terminated.

Keep your eyes on our primary jobs and try not to forget, downtown needs a miracle (you know, like Devon) everyday....

This should be your picture on here:

[Teatownclown]

This should be your picture on here:

meh....you don't think I believe in dreamers?

"How come the future has to take such a long time?"

[LandArchPoke]

meh....you don't think I believe in dreamers?

More like a troll that I wish wasn't on this site because you add nothing to it

[Teatownclown]

More like a troll that I wish wasn't on this site because you add nothing to it

So you don't believe job preservation should be our highest priority?


"Somewhere out there is a land that's cool
          Where peace and balance are the rule
          Working for the future like some kinda mystic jewel

                          And the waiting for a
                          And the waiting for a
                          And the waiting for a miracle~"

[LandArchPoke]

So you don't believe job preservation should be our highest priority?

You always try to derail topics. Please enlighten everyone to what you can add to this one? Last I checked the AA base and our aerospace jobs aren't downtown and this topic is about a wishlist downtown.

[JoeMommaBlake]

My wish list.

1. Improved Parking Solutions
Our downtown parking situation is a mess. We have all kinds of issues: broken meters, unfriendly enforcement, poorly designed on street parking, unfortunately placed parking structures and ugly and abundant surface parking lots. The whole thing needs an overhaul.  

2. Additional Police Presence
As has been mentioned, the issues we have with visitors feeling safe are easily solved with an increase in uniformed presence. My suggestion to solve the parking enforcement problem with a new class of police officer is a step towards this solution.

3. A developed 5th Street Corridor
The conversation here thus far, if summarized speaks to the reality of our downtown development situation. It is going to have to consider visitors and residents, young and old, suburbanites and urbanites, wealthy and not wealthy, etc. A 5th street retail corridor would do the following things:
a. Connect the civic center plaza with the East Village.
There is a good amount of interest in developing the East Village, which includes a park, new housing, new retail, and even maybe a movie theater. Using the 5th street corridor to connect that activity around Elgin (which is already a growing hot strip) with our city's Convention facilities.
b. Take advantage of our most walkable and visually stunning streets.
5th Street is great. Bartlett Square is cool (even cooler with a real fountain) and of course Boston is our best looking street and home to some cool things already happening in restaurant and retail.
c. Take advantage of the existing real estate situation.
5th street already has a good amount of small (and often empty) storefronts all along it, and is home to residential in the YMCA lofts, Mayo Hotel Lofts, Mayo Lofts, Vandever Lofts, Philtower Lofts, and the new ones planned at 5th and Elgin.
d. Give our convention sellers an arrow in the quiver.
A significant retail district would be a nice attraction for downtown visitors, especially those staying in the Mayo, Aloft, Marriot, Holiday Inn, and Hyatt. It's tough for our CVB to sell Tulsa when similar cities have a much more visitor friendly downtown area. As much as I love what's happening downtown, until we have a more dense retail area, we're not in the same league.
e. Give suburbanites and surrounding rural folks a reason to visit downtown.
Today, downtown's biggest selling point is its local restaurants. The few retail places (especially Dwelling Spaces, Fleet Feet, and Lee's) we have do a great job of pulling people into the IDL, but they can't really do it alone. Suburbanites are not coming downtown for dinner. They're very happy with their food options in South Tulsa and BA. They'll travel to Dallas to shop, though. Putting a unique selection of retailers that don't exist elsewhere in Tulsa would attract folks from all around to shop in the urban environment (think Denver's 16th Street). Picture Nike Town, Lucky Jeans, Urban Outfitters, The Puma Store, Northface, Levi's, Apple, etc. These are the types of stores you typically find in urban shopping districts like Gaslamp in San Diego or at Union Square in San Francisco. Naturally some of our local flavor would exist in the mix. It already does in places like Spexton, which is a great fit. Add in some basics like a Radio Shack, CVS, and a bookstore like Denver's Tattered Cover and you'd have a heck of a shopping destination. Take a drive down 5th next time you're downtown and picture what I'm talking about. Know that it wouldn't just be 5th Street. It would likely go a block in each direction north and south of the main spine on each of the north/south streets. The property owners on the strip want this to happen and the city has folks looking in to it, but it needs my item 1 to happen first...and will need parking structures at each end and maybe a free street car/bus loop from convention center to 5th and Elgin.

4. More diverse housing options
To create a true community, we're going to have to have some more affordable housing for the younger folks. You'll find that the majority of our new downtown housing is full of older folks. The young downtowners live in places like The Blair or Central Park or Gunboat Park or in little apartments above businesses here and there. More of them would live downtown if we had small, simple, affordable units. This could/should include student housing options for our downtown college students.

5. New transit/connectivity solutions
Tulsa's biggest problem is connectivity. Our best districts are just far enough apart to be a problem. Brookside, Cherry St. Utica Square, 18th and Boston, Downtown, and the up and coming Pearl District, Kendall Whittier, The River, and hopefully Rt. 66 are all great and getting better. They just need to be better connected. This same issue exists downtown. Deco District, Blue Dome, Brady/Greenwood, Arena are all great, but just a bit too disconnected. Until those areas have grown into each other (which will make the whole thing more walkable), improved transit will be vital to connecting them to each other. I, like many of you, would like that to be in the form of street car/fixed rail. It's time to start thinking about what all of these things will be in 5-10 years and planning for it now. I don't want us looking back when these districts have really come to life and wish that we had started solving the connectivity problem a decade earlier. This item also includes little things like getting people over the tracks from Blue Dome to Greenwood/Brady in a better way, fixing one way streets, adding and improving signage, etc.

6. More art, streetscaping, trees
It may sound silly, but Tulsa's really lacking in public art in our downtown area. We need more statues, structures, murals, etc. Our surface parking lots at least need landscaping and trees. Part of the whole walkability thing is having nice things to look at. I'd love our reputation as a creative city to grow. Part of that will be putting that type of thing in our downtown so that everywhere a visitor looks, they're seeing the results of our creativity.

7. The return of DFest or the emergence of a new one to replace it
Someone mentioned this. DFest was great for us and had a chance to be even better. It's a real shame that it's gone. It looked great on Tulsa. Perhaps we can get back there. Large music festivals in urban areas aren't that common. Ours showcased our incredible looking downtown and some of our great venues. You want creative young people to want to live in Tulsa? Things like DFest are a part of that allure.

My wildcard
8. A sound stage/miniature studio city
I'd love to see us work to establish Tulsa as a place for filmmaking and creativity in general. The economic impact of filmmaking is tremendous and Tulsa has a great deal to offer in terms of geography, architecture, multiple seasons, etc. We also have a creative talent base here and a history of excellence in film and music. Tulsa has a bit of an arts personality. It would be tremendous if our citizens could recognize this asset and work to exploit it. Tulsa is often considered to be a city without an identity. When we're mentioned, our past is referenced, which is nice, but I'd like to be known for what we are right now...and I'd like for that to be that we're a leader in creativity (film, music, art) and energy (oil, gas, alternative energies). Creative Energy. We can get to the place where people think of us and think nice things, but it will have to be because of bold decisions about where we want to go. Look up how Indianapolis just decided that they were going to be a sports town. They built an NFL stadium with no NFL team. They're hosting this year's Super Bowl. You guys referenced Austin, Portland, etc. Those cities all attract young, creative people (which in turn attract the types of employers that employ them). This should be our primary objective...keeping and attracting creative talent.

Summary. I really like this conversation. You guys have made some great points and shared some really cool ideas. I like the comments about figuring out who we're aiming at and defining our personality. I couldn't agree more. My thoughts there, having profiled my guests at the restaurants over the years, is as follows.
- Our downtown working crowd has room to grow. There's plenty of office space downtown and we should be working to fill it. Part of that will come from doing things like the 5th street corridor I mentioned earlier. All of those commercial property owners agree that if their bottom floors have cool things going on, their top floors will increase in demand. Regardless, the comments regarding downtown workers are right on. More workers = more housing demand = more entertainment options = more workers.
- Our residents should/will continue to be a mix of newly divorced people, traveling professionals, college students, empty nesters, and young singles or young marrieds with no kids. I know some people want us to be New York and have something for families, etc. That's fine, but that's not our target market. If people want to try to raise kids in downtown with no yard and a smaller floorplan, that's their decision...most Tulsans are not going to do that, and frankly, downtown doesn't need them to. Tulsa has places for those folks. My family is like that. We're not moving downtown. There's nowhere for the trampoline.
- Tulsa can do better with visitors. We've got a top notch facility in the BOK Center, an amazing asset in The Cains Ballroom, and Rt. 66 running right through our city (and our downtown). I think "visitors" is our largest potential area for growth. They're great for the local economy and they use far fewer resources than citizens. The new museums will also help this as people from the area will also come to visit. Back to Rt. 66 for a second. The fact that we've failed to capitalize on the presence of Rt. 66 in our city is more of a shame than people act like it is. Look up some stats on Rt. 66 tourism. We're really missing it. Downtown has a great opportunity to capitalize on it, as does The Pearl District, Red Fork, The River, Kendall Whittier, etc. If this works, it will be the thread that connects all of the significant up and coming areas in Tulsa...with downtown and The River at the center of it.

Forgive the long post, but I couldn't resist. I'm a dork for this stuff.

[jacobi]

Bravo, Blake.

[jacobi]

With OSU I would like to see them rebrand the Tulsa campus to Oklahoma State University's Urban Campus. Even as an OSU alum I can say that the idea of going to graduate school in Stillwater is less than appealing. Growing graduate program's in a metropolitan region will only help their enrollment and attracting students that would want to live in an urban environment.

(sorry to pull a quote from an older page)

I'm doing this right now.  Grad school in Stilly has its charm.  For about a week and a half.  Then you get sick of stonewall.  It seems that alot people focus on high tech and medical university programs.  Admittedly these are great things that drive employment and help diversify our mix of major industries.  I'd also like to see the humanities options at OSU-Tulsa increase.  I'm a philosophy student and the regents refuse to come through with the money for a position for a prof. at the Tulsa campus.  I realize that having history or english majors it's immediately appealing, but it makes the city more culturally rich.

Ok ok this is kinda thread drift.  sorry.