Airport to Downtown Commuter Rail Line

[RecycleMichael]

Walk me through the math, Average Joe.

Anyone...please feel free to change the numbers if you have different knowledge.

A six mile route from the airport to the central business district preferredly next to a structured parking area. The train runs every half hour each way. 24 miles of travel every hour. You could probably run it less often during off peak, but for now say you run it from 6am till 10pm. That covers almost all of the flights leaving the airport.

That means 32 trips in and 32 trips out each day. 64 six mile trips equals 384 miles a day. What is the operating cost per mile?

I read that locomotive engines were two million dollars a piece and passenger cabs were 1.5 million dollars a piece. I have no idea if these are good, but I think we would need three engines and say six cab cars. That is $15 million in rolling capital stock plus I am sure another five million dollars in tools and offices and probably another five million dollars in platforms and security stations. What is the funding source for 25 million in initial capital costs?

Where do we put it downtown? Are there any acquisition costs?

I do like the idea, but still reserve the right to oppose if the numbers just don't work. The most important number is probably the number of passengers per day and just don't feel there is going to be enough with the airport terminal as the only destination from downtown. Maybe if there was a way to connect to the jobs at American Airlines.

I would like to see the downtown link be right where the Boulder Bridge is now. Build a large elevated depot that lets out to the north into new structured parking for the Brady theatre and to the south to a ramp to the existing parking garage on Second Street.

[pmcalk]

I like the route from downtown to the Airport even more than one to BA.  It is a proactive planning approach that could ultimately make all of the difference to north Tulsa.  A direct line between the airport & downtown, with one or two stops along the way, combined with a transit oriented development node--you would have a great incentive for a high-density, mixed use development in a very underutilized area of town.  Also, if you look at the map, the northern train route extends on beyond the airport up to Owasso, Collinsville, and eventually Bartlesville.  What a great day trip--Woolaroc, OKMozart, etc....  A great benefit for both Tulsa & Bartlesville.

[Porky]

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

 the route I proposed is an express - no stops.

Exactly, it would have to be a non-stop in order for it to work with travelers. Everything has to be catered to the people coming in and leaving at the airports.

Also the Light Rail system would have to be implemented in order for it to be cost effective and fast.

[pmcalk]

quote:Originally posted by Porky

quote:Originally posted by AVERAGE JOE

 the route I proposed is an express - no stops.

Exactly, it would have to be a non-stop in order for it to work with travelers. Everything has to be catered to the people coming in and leaving at the airports.

Also the Light Rail system would have to be implemented in order for it to be cost effective and fast.

You could always do a mix, as most other cities do--have an express during some hours, and local at other times.  I would think that peak time for commuters (7am to 9am) would not be peak for airport travelers (except for Dallas, planes from east coast will arrive late morning, early afternoon; other planes even later).  I wonder whether a train exclusively devoted to airport/downtown connection would have enough riders.  Really, under the best scenerio, how many travelers does Tulsa get a day?  To work, I think it needs some other stops included, at least during commuter times.  Again, pull in Owasso, and eventually Bartesville, and you have a transit that will work for commuters & travelers.  And with a couple of stops between downtown & the airport, you won't add more than 10 or 15 minutes.  Speaking from experience, an average cab ride from the airport to downtown is around $40.  I imagine that, given the cost comparison, most travelers would still take the train even if the travel time is fifteen minutes more.

[Porky]

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk



You could always do a mix, as most other cities do--have an express during some hours, and local at other times.  I would think that peak time for commuters (7am to 9am) would not be peak for airport travelers (except for Dallas, planes from east coast will arrive late morning, early afternoon; other planes even later).  I wonder whether a train exclusively devoted to airport/downtown connection would have enough riders.  Really, under the best scenerio, how many travelers does Tulsa get a day?  To work, I think it needs some other stops included, at least during commuter times.  Again, pull in Owasso, and eventually Bartesville, and you have a transit that will work for commuters & travelers.  And with a couple of stops between downtown & the airport, you won't add more than 10 or 15 minutes.  Speaking from experience, an average cab ride from the airport to downtown is around $40.  I imagine that, given the cost comparison, most travelers would still take the train even if the travel time is fifteen minutes more.

The mix would only work if there were more trains. The airport train needs to be left just for airport travelers.

I'm all for more then one train and I think the B'ville connection would hold some merit, as one from Claremore. But I do know that this system didn't work well with Lawrence, Kansas running a train to Kansas City. I don't know what the reasons were but it would be worth looking into why it failed.

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by recyclemichael

Walk me through the math, Average Joe.

Anyone...please feel free to change the numbers if you have different knowledge.

A six mile route from the airport to the central business district preferredly next to a structured parking area. The train runs every half hour each way. 24 miles of travel every hour. You could probably run it less often during off peak, but for now say you run it from 6am till 10pm. That covers almost all of the flights leaving the airport.

That means 32 trips in and 32 trips out each day. 64 six mile trips equals 384 miles a day. What is the operating cost per mile?

I read that locomotive engines were two million dollars a piece and passenger cabs were 1.5 million dollars a piece. I have no idea if these are good, but I think we would need three engines and say six cab cars. That is $15 million in rolling capital stock plus I am sure another five million dollars in tools and offices and probably another five million dollars in platforms and security stations. What is the funding source for 25 million in initial capital costs?

Where do we put it downtown? Are there any acquisition costs?

I do like the idea, but still reserve the right to oppose if the numbers just don't work. The most important number is probably the number of passengers per day and just don't feel there is going to be enough with the airport terminal as the only destination from downtown. Maybe if there was a way to connect to the jobs at American Airlines.

I would like to see the downtown link be right where the Boulder Bridge is now. Build a large elevated depot that lets out to the north into new structured parking for the Brady theatre and to the south to a ramp to the existing parking garage on Second Street.

RM, I don't have the exact numbers, but from what I recall from the Tulsa-BA Light Rail Study presentation, the costs aren't nearly that high for the trains. The total startup costs for that line would be in the $32 to $38 million range, which included twice the length of track to prep, 4 stations (versus 2 stations for the airport express), and a many more grade crossing improvements. So I'd say $25 million for the airport train startup is high. It could be as little as half that... not that $12 million is chump change.

Speaking of grade crossings, I looked at the route a little more closely. As luck would have it, we wouldn't have to install grade crossing improvements at Peoria, Utica or Lewis because there are already bridges/underpasses at those crossings. Oddly enough, there would need to be grade crossing improvements at Madison (near the IDL) and Trenton, but those are non-arterials (little impact on traffic flow). First arterial crossing would be Harvard, then Pine, Yale and Sheridan.

As for the downtown station, the location the BA commuter rail study mentioned was "around" Cincinnati or Detroit. Too bad the old Union Depot ground floor couldn't be used - talk about coming full circle. Anyway, there's a simple little two story brick warehouse building on the NW corner of 1st & Elgin that backs up to the tracks that would make a fine little transit station. RM, I'm sure you know the one - the vacant one across the street from the Met, painted red (sort of). Work out a deal with whoever owns the dirty ice cube (former Wiltel building) to lease some of the parking in the garage at 1st & Detroit. Or there's that HUGE 2-block long surface lot behind the old Santa Fe Depot that could be used. Oooh, wait... how about running a little spur across 1st and using the old Santa Fe Depot as the transit station? Probably not feasible, but how cool would that be?[]

pmcalk, I like the direction you're heading. My opinion would be to run a non-stop train to start, and then entertain ideas of adding a TOD halfway along the route once demand has built up. If you look at the satelite photos on Google Maps, there's a lot of possibilities with industrial sites along the tracks. Somewhere around Harvard or Lewis would be ideal, because there's already density to the surrounding neighborhoods and the TOD would be relatively close to TU or Whittier Square.

[si_uk_lon_ok]

I was doing some rough calculations on the potential demand of such a service, if it was just an express.

The airport receives around 3,000,000 travellers a year. I'm assuming this is both inbound and outbound travellers. If we assume that they travel in groups of around 1.5 (which I feel is on the high side) and everyone comes by car at the moment, this would be around 2,000,000 car trips to the airport by travellers. While I realise that people may come to meet people at the airport these are unlikely to originate in downtown, so I've left them off. I'm also assuming that it would be business users who would most likely be using the service as they would be heading to the downtown area more than Tulsan residents. So if 50% of passengers at the airport are business travellers (a fairly high figure) that would be 1,000,000 business related car trips a year heading to the airport. If half of these business travellers were heading downtown this would be 500,000 car trips from the airport to downtown for business travellers. Each day this would be 1,369. We have to then work out how many people would use the train. This would likely only be people in town for a short time and therefore not hiring a car, people with business near to the station and people who don't mind taking the train. A very optimistic modal split for the train would be 15%, especially without an integrated transport system in downtown for those with no cars. This means that we have 205 car trips a day travelling to and from the airport would be diverted onto the rail line or 308 people. If you divide this by the numbers of trains a day, this would come to around 4.8 people a train. I don't think the train frequency should be lowered though as that would reduce the modal share of the train. I really think for the service to work it needs to link up to some park and rail services into downtown and be a piece of an integrated mass transit system.

To put it another way, if you have six cab cars, which is what I have seen suggested. That would have a capacity of 330 people. If the train only ever travelled half full at 165, 50% capacity is usually taken as break even on train services, this can be lowered the higher the capacity due to the low marginal cost of additional carriages compared to extra trains. Travelling 64 times a day this would carry 10,560 and over the course of the year this would be 3,854,400 trips. The airport only currently serves 3,000,000 travellers a year.

[Double A]

Don't stop the music, this keeps sounding better and better.

[sgrizzle]

Since the Jazz hall of fame only uses part of the old depot, why not use it?

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

Since the Jazz hall of fame only uses part of the old depot, why not use it?

Excellent Choice sgrizzle...!

[cannon_fodder]

Great idea.  Not only would it provide a transit line to the airport, but it would start a mass-transit hub in Tulsa.  If the bus lines and the rail line tied together downtown and something happened with the BA line (train, express bus, whatever) then there would be a nice foundation in place.

If nothing else, it would make it very nice for residents to hop a bus to the rail to the airport and avoid leaving our cars somewhere not home.

cost is a point of concern, as is the current use of those tracks.  I know both of those lines are currently under use by industry...

[Double A]

Don't forget about the plans to bring Amtrak service to Tulsa, either.

[si_uk_lon_ok]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Great idea.  Not only would it provide a transit line to the airport, but it would start a mass-transit hub in Tulsa.  If the bus lines and the rail line tied together downtown and something happened with the BA line (train, express bus, whatever) then there would be a nice foundation in place.

If nothing else, it would make it very nice for residents to hop a bus to the rail to the airport and avoid leaving our cars somewhere not home.

That's true, I think the viability of any rail line depends on the integration with other public transit routes.

I think it is important that Tulsa has a plan of how it will build up its public transport system in stages that interlock and reinforce each other. I agree that bringing Amtrak to Tulsa would be a great start, maybe followed by a bus rapid transit system, then an integrated rail system linking Broken Arrow, Claremore and Bartlesville with one downtown station.

I think the real danger is that in the wrong order you could build public transport infrastructure that would work under some circumstances, but is not integrated with the rest of the system and has low numbers of users. I think if tax payers are asked to fund a scheme that fails they will be extremely reluctant to fund further schemes.

[sgrizzle]

2 trains would provide service about every 15 minutes. I'm guessing a third would allow for maintenance, etc. With a route that size, hopefully they could utilize the engine/passenger car combo unit popular in other cities instead of buying a separate locomotive engine. The weight wouldn't really justify that.

I would think this line would easily be able to charge $5-$10 one-way as it allows business commuters the ability to travel from work to out-of-state locations without using a car. The cost would need to be slightly under, or close to, cab fair. It would be very popular with out-of-state business travelers. A downtown shuttle bus would have to be combined with this service in case the office or hotel you are seeking isn't within a few blocks of the station.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_Multiple_Unit

[si_uk_lon_ok]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

2 trains would provide service about every 15 minutes. I'm guessing a third would allow for maintenance, etc. With a route that size, hopefully they could utilize the engine/passenger car combo unit popular in other cities instead of buying a separate locomotive engine. The weight wouldn't really justify that.

I would think this line would easily be able to charge $5-$10 one-way as it allows business commuters the ability to travel from work to out-of-state locations without using a car. The cost would need to be slightly under, or close to, cab fair. It would be very popular with out-of-state business travelers. A downtown shuttle bus would have to be combined with this service in case the office or hotel you are seeking isn't within a few blocks of the station.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_Multiple_Unit

Look I really like the idea of a rail link to the airport. I'm really pro public transport. However the airport can't support an exclusive express link. The airport only has 3,000,000 users a year, please correct me if I'm wrong.

If we jump to a service every 15 mins, with one carriage half full that's 27.5 people on each of the 128 rail journeys in a day that would be 3520 a day or 1,284,800 a year. That's nearly half the passengers using the airport. I'm sorry but the idea in its present form is not viable.