Paul Tay: Terror or Trendsetter?

[shadows]

The city ordinance prohibits a cyclist from riding in the street with anything in his hands.  Now the motorist can smoke, drink or talk on the telephone while driving above the speed limit..  

One of the disk encyclopedias I have says that we have near one million attorneys (with tickets) to practice law in U.S..  It further suggests that this is one half of the attorneys licensed to practice in the entire civilized world.  Some countries, like England, the notary public does the paper and attorneys are the only ones to address the bar.

Now if one goes through the city ordinances they become more confused as why a six year old can ride in traffic even without training wheels.   Maybe that is the answer we are looking for like the advanced China three judge court system where only one judge can have any legal training leaving the other two to rule by reasoning.

We could require training wheels on all bicycles where the rider could just stop and wait without any effort of staying vertical until it came his time to move on.    

[TUalum0982]

quote:Originally posted by 1099paralegal

quote:Originally posted by TUalum0982

As for the wager, you clearly did not understand my post either.  I asked "how many times have you seen someone pulled over for the infractions you had mentioned."  Once again, we can go pull cases if you like, which are mere stats once again and we have already gone over that topic.  I am sure the number of people cited compared to the daily drivers in Tulsa X the number of days per calendar year is going to equal a very very very small percentage.  Compare that to the people who are cited for speeding, no sealt belt use, illegal lane change, DUI, or any other traffic offense and you will agree that the petty bicycle laws are rarely enforced.

Your point is totally MOOT.  There are simply more motor vehicle drivers than bicycle drivers.  So, therefore, there will be more citations for motorists running reds, speeding, etc.  

But, if an ordinance or statute is in FULL force and EFFECT, the opportunity exists to enforce them.

And, with all your law enforcement experience, I am QUITE surprise of your attitude toward the LAW.  If the law is on the books, it is intended to be OBEYED, even if it means someone has to sit in the back of the bus.

you clearly misunderstood my post. I intended to imply that the number of cars on the road being cited for speeding, running red lights, DUI, illegal lane change is by far higher then the number of people being cited for the infractions you originally cited in the statutes.  Do you see where I was coming from now? My point still remains that the laws are simply not enforced compared to the other traffic laws.....

edited for clarity yet again:

I intended to imply that the number of CARS on the road being cited for speeding, running red lights, DUI, illegal lane change is by far higher then the number of CARS being cited for the infractions you originally cited in the statutes.

My point is that even though there are laws in place, they don't necessarily get enforced as much as other traffic laws.

[nathanm]

quote:Originally posted by TUalum0982


you clearly misunderstood my post. I intended to imply that the number of cars on the road being cited for speeding, running red lights, DUI, illegal lane change is by far higher then the number of people being cited for the infractions you originally cited in the statutes.  Do you see where I was coming from now? My point still remains that the laws are simply not enforced compared to the other traffic laws.....

I don't think there was any misunderstanding. It stands to reason given the hundreds or thousands of times greater number of motorists on the road than bicyclists that there would be very, very few tickets issued to bicyclists.

Say you have a city where there are 90 female motorists and 10 male motorists, who all drive essentially the same. Of course about 90% of the tickets will go to the female motorists. Discrimination, you say? No, statistics.

[cannon_fodder]

Paul:

quote:Those who do not exercise their rights DESERVE to lose them.-----Confucious [sic].

That quote is wrong, no such quote exists.  In fact, on the whole of the internet it is attributed only here.  Not only is the quote non existent anywhere, it is not even consistent with the teachings of Confucius (virtue, ethics and self control > firm rules.  Though of self as well as others > hierarchical order.  In other words, riding on a freeway because you can would be seen as an extreme extensional and selfish act, not condoned by the man.  Go read a book or two before making up quotes).    

Next, you basically said "I ride on the freeway because I can."  And I can do all things I listed - including doing all I can to slow down traffic and be a jerk in other ways.  The ability to do something is not an excuse nor reason to partake in it.

And finally, because some juco prosecutor didn't care enough to prepare for your BS case doesn't mean it is good law.  You won a mighty battle in traffic court and hold it out as a edict and firm jurisprudence.  "In the matter of City of Tulsa v. Santa the court held..."  Kudos on your big win... it's still a dangerous act the sole point of which is to gain attention to yourself at the expense of the rest of the public.

That, my friends, is called an attention whore.  No, I'm sorry... you're on a quest for the public well being and preserving our rights to be an idiot.

[1099paralegal]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Next, you basically said "I ride on the freeway because I can."  And I can do all things I listed - including doing all I can to slow down traffic and be a jerk in other ways.  The ability to do something is not an excuse nor reason to partake in it.

Bikes don't slow traffic.  Bicycles ARE traffic.  O.S. 47 1-177, 37 TRO 100.

quote:
And finally, because some juco prosecutor didn't care enough to prepare for your BS case doesn't mean it is good law.  You won a mighty battle in traffic court and hold it out as a edict and firm jurisprudence.  "In the matter of City of Tulsa v. Santa the court held..."  Kudos on your big win... it's still a dangerous act the sole point of which is to gain attention to yourself at the expense of the rest of the public.

The City could have appealed when they had the chance.  They also could have sought a restraining order pending appeal.

quote:
That, my friends, is called an attention whore.  No, I'm sorry... you're on a quest for the public well being and preserving our rights to be an idiot.

How to Beat the Attention Whore on the Broken Arrow Expressway, WITHOUT Really Trying:

1) Slow down;
2) Signal the lane change;
3) Pass in the other lane.

Problem SOLVED.

[Red Arrow]

quote:Originally posted by 1099paralegal

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Next, you basically said "I ride on the freeway because I can."  And I can do all things I listed - including doing all I can to slow down traffic and be a jerk in other ways.  The ability to do something is not an excuse nor reason to partake in it.

Bikes don't slow traffic.  Bicycles ARE traffic.  O.S. 47 1-177, 37 TRO 100.

quote:
And finally, because some juco prosecutor didn't care enough to prepare for your BS case doesn't mean it is good law.  You won a mighty battle in traffic court and hold it out as a edict and firm jurisprudence.  "In the matter of City of Tulsa v. Santa the court held..."  Kudos on your big win... it's still a dangerous act the sole point of which is to gain attention to yourself at the expense of the rest of the public.

The City could have appealed when they had the chance.  They also could have sought a restraining order pending appeal.

quote:
That, my friends, is called an attention whore.  No, I'm sorry... you're on a quest for the public well being and preserving our rights to be an idiot.

How to Beat the Attention Whore on the Broken Arrow Expressway, WITHOUT Really Trying:

1) Slow down;
2) Signal the lane change;
3) Pass in the other lane.

Problem SOLVED.

How about... Bicycles slow other traffic.

1) Slow down; listen for crunching metal and glass behind you.
2) Signal the lane change, force your way into the other lane to avoid really slow "traffic" you didn't see in time to slow down sufficiently.   Reap same results as in first lane.  (Motorcycles are not always easy to see, a bicycle is even more difficult to see, especially if you aren't expecting one.)
3)Pass?  Except for one really slow vehicle you hopefully missed, everyone else in front of you is long gone. The mess behind you isn't going anywhere.  

Legal or not... riding a bicycle on the BA Expy is just not too intelligent.

[cannon_fodder]

Listen Paul, you can posture all you want.  It boils down to you riding your bike in order to mess with other people and gain attention to yourself.  If that sounds like a noble goal - or you think you are helping other bikers (who bemoan you for degrading their chosen mode of transit), then I disagree.

Generally, in my world, doing something that is rude, dangerous, and inconvenient to other people for your own gratification is simply being a jerk.

[RecycleMichael]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Listen Paul, you can posture all you want.  It boils down to you riding your bike in order to mess with other people and gain attention to yourself.  If that sounds like a noble goal - or you think you are helping other bikers (who bemoan you for degrading their chosen mode of transit), then I disagree.

Generally, in my world, doing something that is rude, dangerous, and inconvenient to other people for your own gratification is simply being a jerk.

Nailed it.

[1099paralegal]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Listen Paul, you can posture all you want.  It boils down to you riding your bike in order to mess with other people and gain attention to yourself.  If that sounds like a noble goal - or you think you are helping other bikers (who bemoan you for degrading their chosen mode of transit), then I disagree.

Generally, in my world, doing something that is rude, dangerous, and inconvenient to other people for your own gratification is simply being a jerk.

You do have TWO choices when you encounter a JERK on a bike, in front of your windshield.

Either:

1) Slow down; Signal the lane change; AND, pass in the other lane;

OR

2) RUN the JERK over.

Your choice.  Fox23, Newson6, and KRMG would LOVE it.  It's a pretty slow news day in the neighborhood.  MAKE my DAY.

Syllogism goes something like this: JERK shouldn't have been in the middle of the road.  So, he deserved it.

Oh, I almost forget about TPD.  They'd LOVE it too.  A validation of EVERY one of their mis-guided beliefs about bikes on Memorial during RUSH.  And, no more 911 switchboard lighting up like the PSO Christmas Parade every time Santa rolls.

Tell me cops gonna OUT-bike Santa on the BA.

[TURobY]

Or...

3) Get in front of the JERK and slam on your brakes. []

[1099paralegal]

quote:Originally posted by TURobY

Or...

3) Get in front of the JERK and slam on your brakes. []

MAKE my DAY.

[1099paralegal]

quote:Originally posted by Red Arrow

How about... Bicycles slow other traffic.

You are still NOT understanding the BLACK letter of the LAW, in plain ENGLISH:  Bikes don't slow other traffic.  Bikes ARE traffic.  

Even a pedestrian walking in the middle of Memorial is traffic.  O.S. 47 1-177, 37 TRO 100: Traffic shall mean pedestrians, ridden or herded animals, vehicles, streetcars and other conveyances, either singly or together, while using any street or roadway for purposes of travel.

quote:
1) Slow down; listen for crunching metal and glass behind you.

If there's crunching glass and metal behind the Santa, maybe the motorist should have HUNG UP, PAY ATTENTION, AND DRIVE?

quote:
2) Signal the lane change, force your way into the other lane to avoid really slow "traffic" you didn't see in time to slow down sufficiently.   Reap same results as in first lane.  (Motorcycles are not always easy to see, a bicycle is even more difficult to see, especially if you aren't expecting one.)

If you can't PLAINLY see the Santa in front of you, you are either BLIND, drunk, or you just need to HANG UP AND DRIVE.

quote:
3)Pass?  Except for one really slow vehicle you hopefully missed, everyone else in front of you is long gone. The mess behind you isn't going anywhere.  

SHOW ME THE MESS.

quote:
Legal or not... riding a bicycle on the BA Expy is just not too intelligent.

According to AAA, 43,000 Americans die EVERY year because of motor vehicle crashes.  2 die EVERY day in Oklahoma because of motor vehicle crashes.  Law enforcement actions are INEFFECTIVE to stop the carnage.  Motor vehicles have killed MORE Americans than the Nazis, the Vietnamese, or the Iraqis, COMBINED.

Will the REAL village IDIOT please STAND up?

Show me a reckless, DRUNKEN, outta control bicyclist, I'll show you the village IDIOT impersonating Santa at the Annual TPD Awards Banquet.

Show me a reckless, DRUNKEN, outta control motorist, I'll show you Kimberly Graham, the poster girl for ALL reckless, DRUNKEN, outta control MOTORISTS.

[Red Arrow]

Since you are so hung up on the concept that bicycles are traffic, I guess I will have to elaborate.

quote:Originally posted by 1099paralegal

quote:Originally posted by Red Arrow

How about... Bicycles slow other traffic.

You are still NOT understanding the BLACK letter of the LAW, in plain ENGLISH:  Bikes don't slow other traffic.  Bikes ARE traffic.  Even a pedestrian walking in the middle of Memorial is traffic.  O.S. 47 1-177, 37 TRO 100.

By saying "other traffic" I have acknowledged that bicycles are traffic, regardless of my personal opinion. Please read what I wrote, not what your agenda causes you to see. Slow motor vehicles can cause similar problems.  

quote:
1) Slow down; listen for crunching metal and glass behind you.

If there's crunching glass and metal behind the Santa, maybe the motorist should have HUNG UP, PAY ATTENTION, AND DRIVE?

Actually I was referring to the crunching metal and glass behind the motorist slowing for Santa but for no apparent reason to the traffic behind the motorist that couldn't see Santa.  It happens even with motor vehicles and no bicycles involved.

quote:
2) Signal the lane change, force your way into the other lane to avoid really slow "traffic" you didn't see in time to slow down sufficiently.   Reap same results as in first lane.  (Motorcycles are not always easy to see, a bicycle is even more difficult to see, especially if you aren't expecting one.)

If you can't PLAINLY see the Santa in front of you, you are either BLIND, drunk, or you just need to HANG UP AND DRIVE.

I believe you are making some common but not necessarily valid assumptions.

quote:
3)Pass?  Except for one really slow vehicle you hopefully missed, everyone else in front of you is long gone. The mess behind you isn't going anywhere.  

SHOW ME THE MESS.

I guess there has never been a pile up accident where vehicles not involved in the original problem become involved.  I've seen on aerial shots where there are several vehicles involved in a series of collisions. They block traffic behind them but not in front of them. The road ahead of the collision is usually empty.

quote:
Legal or not... riding a bicycle on the BA Expy is just not too intelligent.

According to AAA, 43,000 Americans die EVERY year because of motor vehicle crashes.  2 die EVERY day in Oklahoma because of motor vehicle crashes.  Law enforcement actions are INEFFECTIVE to stop the carnage.

Probably because many drivers in the USA got their driver's license off the back of a cereal box.  They have no concept of things like it takes distance to stop, two objects of matter cannot occupy the same space at the same time etc.  No fancy math, just observation.

Maybe driving a motor vehicle on the BA is not too intelligent?  Naaaaaaaaaaah.  Forget it.

Maybe it is not so great but it is less risky than driving a bicycle.

Show me a reckless, DRUNKEN, outta control bicyclist, I'll show you the village IDIOT impersonating Santa at the Annual TPD Awards Banquet.

Should be arrested for DUI, same as a motorist.

Show me a reckless, DRUNKEN, outta control motorist, I'll show you Kimberly Graham, the poster girl for ALL reckless, DRUNKEN, outta control MOTORISTS.

Not all accidents are caused by drunk drivers and cell phone users.

You can use UPPER CASE LETTERS all you want to. I doubt you will change too many minds that the BA Expy is not a good place to ride a bicycle.

[TUalum0982]

quote:Originally posted by 1099paralegal

quote:Originally posted by Red Arrow

How about... Bicycles slow other traffic.

You are still NOT understanding the BLACK letter of the LAW, in plain ENGLISH:  Bikes don't slow other traffic.  Bikes ARE traffic.  

Even a pedestrian walking in the middle of Memorial is traffic.  O.S. 47 1-177, 37 TRO 100: Traffic shall mean pedestrians, ridden or herded animals, vehicles, streetcars and other conveyances, either singly or together, while using any street or roadway for purposes of travel.

quote:
1) Slow down; listen for crunching metal and glass behind you.

If there's crunching glass and metal behind the Santa, maybe the motorist should have HUNG UP, PAY ATTENTION, AND DRIVE?

quote:
2) Signal the lane change, force your way into the other lane to avoid really slow "traffic" you didn't see in time to slow down sufficiently.   Reap same results as in first lane.  (Motorcycles are not always easy to see, a bicycle is even more difficult to see, especially if you aren't expecting one.)

If you can't PLAINLY see the Santa in front of you, you are either BLIND, drunk, or you just need to HANG UP AND DRIVE.

quote:
3)Pass?  Except for one really slow vehicle you hopefully missed, everyone else in front of you is long gone. The mess behind you isn't going anywhere.  

SHOW ME THE MESS.

quote:
Legal or not... riding a bicycle on the BA Expy is just not too intelligent.

According to AAA, 43,000 Americans die EVERY year because of motor vehicle crashes.  2 die EVERY day in Oklahoma because of motor vehicle crashes.  Law enforcement actions are INEFFECTIVE to stop the carnage.  Motor vehicles have killed MORE Americans than the Nazis, the Vietnamese, or the Iraqis, COMBINED.

Will the REAL village IDIOT please STAND up?

Show me a reckless, DRUNKEN, outta control bicyclist, I'll show you the village IDIOT impersonating Santa at the Annual TPD Awards Banquet.

Show me a reckless, DRUNKEN, outta control motorist, I'll show you Kimberly Graham, the poster girl for ALL reckless, DRUNKEN, outta control MOTORISTS.

So let me make sure I am understanding the BLACK LETTER OF THE LAW....if you rear end me on BA while riding your bike, it would be your fault correct? would you be cited for inattentive driving? following to closely? failue to follow minimum speed limit posted? would you be subject ed to higher insurance rates since after all you are traffic?

The example you keep beating in the ground is an extreme.  It doesnt happen everyday, hence why there was so much publicity about it.  Your daily avg of 2 people dying in OK everyday in a motor vehicle crash took a hit, no pun intended,this past weekend when 0, thats right, ZERO fatalities were reported on Oklahoma highways over the Memorial Holiday weekend.  I thought I had already covered stats in an earlier post in this thread.  You must have misunderstood that post, just like the one you confused with "hitting a wife/gf" and "hitting on a wife/gf".

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Listen Paul, you can posture all you want.  It boils down to you riding your bike in order to mess with other people and gain attention to yourself.  If that sounds like a noble goal - or you think you are helping other bikers (who bemoan you for degrading their chosen mode of transit), then I disagree.

Generally, in my world, doing something that is rude, dangerous, and inconvenient to other people for your own gratification is simply being a jerk.

Congrats, you're a jerk and the law is on your side.  Here's a picture of a rabbit with a pancake on it's head.