Not A Hate Crime?

[daniellezm]

quote:A crime is a crime and is covered under current laws. No crime is one of love, all crimes are hate. A criminal does not break into a house and steal that persons belongings out of love. A vandal does not do his deed because he's kind hearted and cares, he does it to be mean. -or so it seems to me.

I disagree with this. If a certain group is being targetted out of predjudice and bigotry, then I think there is something a little more heinous going on.

[daniellezm]

quote:Originally posted by MDepr2007

Gotta love how being gay ends up being lined up with race and religion as being equal somehow[]

Oh come on. The gay population is discriminated against just like those of minority races and religions.

[azbadpuppy]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

I think the distinction is that if someone vandalizes your house/car/yard/whatever...you can just shrug it off as some random act of ugliness.  Some drunk person or gang initiation or whatever randomly landed on your property...and probably won't return.  It's not about YOU.  It's frustrating, but you don't have to lose sleep over it.

A hate crime, on the other hand, is specifically targeted to YOU as a person.  It's not just random chance, it's a personal attack on YOU.  In a hate crime, vandalism of your home/car/yard/whatever is an attack on you by proxy.  And you DO have to lose sleep over it, because you have been specifically targeted.  And b/c it's often a precursor to more (and possibly escalated) attacks to come.

It's more serious and more scarring than simple damage to your stuff.

Exactly. It is a different classification of crime, therefore it needs to be addressed as such.

[azbadpuppy]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

I have problem with the term "hate crime" because it only "exists" so to speak if you hate a group that is on a certain list. Sure, we can add Gay, Lesbian, Transvestite, Transexual, Bisexual and whatever else but we will still be saying "go ahead and pick another group and burn their houses down" because they aren't as important.

Classify hate crimes as something like this "acts of vandalism or terrorism perpetrated against a group of persons whose motive is hatred of a shared trait amongst the victims" Because as far as I'm concerned, if you are excluding groups from being "protected" like this, it seems silly to include any of them

Totally agree with you on this. Unfortunately it is not written this way, and gay persons are excluded from that protection list in 17 states currently.

[azbadpuppy]

quote:Originally posted by TeeDub

quote:Originally posted by azbadpuppy



Thank you for pointing out that gay persons should be entitled to the same rights and protections as everyone else. Currently, in Oklahoma, they are not.

Um, as a straight white male, gays are allowed EXACTLY the same protections as me.   I think what you mean to say is that they are not "extra" protected by some funny legislation that deems it to be a worse crime for offending them.  

I could care less that they may or may not have chosen their current sexual preference.  Why should someone's sexual preference garner them any special treatment?   Why should the police work harder when investigating gay crime than straight crime?   I think that crime is crime, and that should be it.   I hope whoever did it gets caught, just like if they did it to me.   Having two sets of punishments is about as stupid and bigoted as you can get.

Very easy for you to say. You are protected under current OK law, and I am not. Tell me how that is 'equal'.

[TeeDub]

Because a crime against me handled the same way as a crime against gays...

It is handled as a crime.  

Look, just because you  need to be glad handed because you are gay doesn't mean the rest of us do.   Stand up for yourself and quit trying to regulate the rest of us into thinking you are something special.  Just because you like the warm embrace of a man doesn't mean that you should be treated any different than the rest of us.

[azbadpuppy]

quote:Originally posted by BriefRighter[/i[:X]]


The hatred that is apparent from Oklahoma is the reason why I fight.

Not so fast there buddy. Texas has a looong way to go before it could be considered a 'tolerant' place to live. As far as the hate crime laws- yes, they do include gay persons in Texas. However, you have a governor that has basically said,in public, that if the gays don't like the way things are done in Texas they should live somewhere else. Texas also has some of the most anti-gay legislation in the country.

I appreciate you putting up the good fight, as I try to do as well, but lets not try to say Texas is less hateful than Oklahoma towards gay people because it is simply not true.

[azbadpuppy]

quote:Originally posted by TeeDub

Because a crime against me handled the same way as a crime against gays...

It is handled as a crime.  

Look, just because you  need to be glad handed because you are gay doesn't mean the rest of us do.   Stand up for yourself and quit trying to regulate the rest of us into thinking you are something special.  Just because you like the warm embrace of a man doesn't mean that you should be treated any different than the rest of us.

Wrong again. First of all this crime is irrelevant in your case because you are (I am assuming)not gay. But if it had been committed against you because you are (I am assuming) white, then you would be protected under the law. Who obviously is being treated like a second class citizen?? (Hint: Not You)

And just because you have a personal problem with gay people doesn't give you the right to say who does and doesn't deserve equal protection under the law. I don't consider myself any more 'special' than anyone else, but I do expect equal protection and representation from my government.

Yeah, I'm so glad I get so much 'special treatment' in this country- I certainly do feel the love.

[lockers]

quote:Originally posted by azbadpuppy


Wrong again. First of all this crime is irrelevant in your case because you are (I am assuming)not gay. But if it had been committed against you because you are (I am assuming) white, then you would be protected under the law. Who obviously is being treated like a second class citizen?? (Hint: Not You)

And just because you have a personal problem with gay people doesn't give you the right to say who does and doesn't deserve equal protection under the law. I don't consider myself any more 'special' than anyone else, but I do expect equal protection and representation from my government.

Yeah, I'm so glad I get so much 'special treatment' in this country- I certainly do feel the love.

I don't think you understand what qualifies as a hate crime.  Did you bother reading the relevant law?

If someone sprays "I am going to kill you ***hole" on my garage, it is not a hate crime.    Those people clearly hate me, intend to intimidate me into moving and should be dealt with accordingly.  What you want is if someone threatens a gay man, they should get worse penalties.  That is in every sense of the word discriminatory to me, a hetro white male.  If I am an atheist, should that qualify for hate crime too?  How about if I am poor or rich, should those qualify for hate crime legislation?  Why don't we just lump everyone in and just say the punishment for that crime is now harsher, to be fair to absolutely everyone.

[azbadpuppy]

quote:Originally posted by lockers

quote:Originally posted by azbadpuppy


Wrong again. First of all this crime is irrelevant in your case because you are (I am assuming)not gay. But if it had been committed against you because you are (I am assuming) white, then you would be protected under the law. Who obviously is being treated like a second class citizen?? (Hint: Not You)

And just because you have a personal problem with gay people doesn't give you the right to say who does and doesn't deserve equal protection under the law. I don't consider myself any more 'special' than anyone else, but I do expect equal protection and representation from my government.

Yeah, I'm so glad I get so much 'special treatment' in this country- I certainly do feel the love.

I don't think you understand what qualifies as a hate crime.  Did you bother reading the relevant law?

If someone sprays "I am going to kill you ***hole" on my garage, it is not a hate crime.    Those people clearly hate me, intend to intimidate me into moving and should be dealt with accordingly.  What you want is if someone threatens a gay man, they should get worse penalties.  That is in every sense of the word discriminatory to me, a hetro white male.  If I am an atheist, should that qualify for hate crime too?  How about if I am poor or rich, should those qualify for hate crime legislation?  Why don't we just lump everyone in and just say the punishment for that crime is now harsher, to be fair to absolutely everyone.

If someone spraypainted "I'm going to kill you a**hole" on anyone's garage (even a gay person's) it would not be considered a hate crime, unless of course being an 'a**hole' is now considered a religion or race, and you are indeed an a**hole.  

If someone spraypainted "I'm going to kill you friendly fellow" and it can be shown that the crime was committed based on the fact that the victim is gay then yes it is a hate crime and should be dealt with as such. Unfortunately, in Oklahoma and many other states this is not the case.

If someone threatens you and commits a crime against you based on the fact that you are white, it is a hate crime. Therefore you are protected, in Oklahoma and every other state. Get it? You are not the one being discriminated against!

I absolutely agree that every person in this country should be covered by hate crime laws, and that there should be no special list. Unfortunately there is a list and not everyone is on it. Thats the entire point.

[azbadpuppy]

quote:Originally posted by TeeDub

Just because you like the warm embrace of a man doesn't mean that you should be treated any different than the rest of us.

Thank you. I couldn't agree with you more.

[lockers]

quote:Originally posted by azbadpuppy


I absolutely agree that every person in this country should be covered by hate crime laws, and that there should be no special list. Unfortunately there is a list and not everyone is on it. Thats the entire point.

I am pretty sure I didn't say everybody should be covered by hate crime laws.  I am really sure I said that there should be no hate crime laws.  I understand that you consider yourself a special snowflake, but the truth is your not.  You don't deserve special attention.  Crime is crime regardless of the "why".  I know you want to belittle crime against others to elevate crime against your in group.  Just stop telling everyone that it isn't what you want.  You are just that transparent.

[azbadpuppy]

quote:Originally posted by lockers

quote:Originally posted by azbadpuppy


I absolutely agree that every person in this country should be covered by hate crime laws, and that there should be no special list. Unfortunately there is a list and not everyone is on it. Thats the entire point.

I am pretty sure I didn't say everybody should be covered by hate crime laws.  I am really sure I said that there should be no hate crime laws.  I understand that you consider yourself a special snowflake, but the truth is your not.  You don't deserve special attention.  Crime is crime regardless of the "why".  I know you want to belittle crime against others to elevate crime against your in group.  Just stop telling everyone that it isn't what you want.  You are just that transparent.

Wow, you are so smart- you gots me all figured out.

You understand nothing, except whats in your feeble, bigoted, closed little mind. Therefore, there's nothing more to discuss with you.

[TheArtist]

Even being the target of hate, though no "crime" has been committed, can be hurtful.

A stalker may not actually physically hurt you or your property, but if they...

"" Actually causes the person being followed or harassed to feel terrorized, frightened, intimidated, threatened, harassed, or molested, upon conviction, shall be guilty of the crime of stalking, which is a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in a county jail for not more than one (1) year or by a fine of not more than One Thousand Dollars ($1,000.00), or by both such fine and imprisonment.""


I think intent and motivation do matter.

There is a difference between whether or not you had your windows bashed out because of some random act of vandalism and having your windows bashed out because your a Jew or gay. You feel differently when that happens to you if you are targeted in that manner. Also a society should not be lax and treat such matters the same. It should find that such crimes are more aggregious and not just treat them the same as any other act of vandalism. "Oh, its not that big a deal, its just a broken window."

Also, the intent of a hate crime isnt just to hurt one individual, they are targeting it against everyone in that particular group. Plus they are not just causing property damage, or threatening bodily harm, its you, and the targeted groups, right to exist that is being threatened with the crime and its intent.

Graffiti isnt something that we throw the book at someone for, but if a swastika was sprayed on a Jewish temple,,, there is an obvious, targeted, hatred behind that crime and the person would be punished more severely. Likewise, a lynching would be punished more severely than a regular homicide. We already do recognize hate crimes and punish them more severely.

Intent can be more important than the action. A murder can be classified as self-defense or premeditated based upon intent. Though the action and the results are the same, ALONG WITH the crime itself, intent is an important factor in determining punishment.

It ironic that the crime committed against someone who is gay, because they are gay, is itself an act of not treating a person, or group of persons, equally. So though some people are being targeted unequally, people want the law to treat the crime as if it were equal and the criminal as if they are treating all groups equally.  

One intent of hate crime laws is to try and make everyone equally safe and protected, to say as a society, we think the intent behind this crime is worse than the same act without that intent. We shouldnt want any crime to happen to anyone and SHOULD feel strongly about it. But some crimes and intents are worse than others.

[Sangria]

It's really sad that there are still so many people from the dark ages out there.

I think everyone should be protected by hate crime laws.

When someone destroys your stuff, writes threats on your property it's pretty obvious they hate you.

Not being able to treat the situation for what it is makes Oklahoma look stupid and backwards.