McCain misspoke on foreign aid

[inteller]

who cares if the oil stays here.  if the supply is increased the prices will go down and americans will benefit.  ECON 101.

[pmcalk]

Remember OPEC?  They'll just reduce production by whatever number we produce.  Monopolies 101.

[Gaspar]

I like where this thread has gone.  Everyone on both sides, and in the middle has made good points.

Geo is an awesome resource for nearly every state and it IS being exploited, both on the hot and cold side.  Using it for energy generation in most parts of Oklahoma is still not viable because the cost of reaching "hot zones" is too expensive, and would require massive resources, but some day when the technology to drill stable shafts that deep comes about it may be very valuable.  Currently the cost per KW of power is running $2,800.  This is more expensive than every other form of power (nuclear is around $2,000 per KW).

Shallow Geo is currently being used on many of the new businesses and homes in Oklahoma, and the cost of cooling your home using geothermal heat exchange has dropped dramatically.  This is a big change, because cooling a space requires more energy than heating it.

RM is on the money with wind in Oklahoma.  We have enough open land mass and wind to provide vast amounts of power, but again it is still a question of space and expense vs wattage.  Wind power requires the clearing of thousands of acres to produce the same energy wattage that can be produced from the use of one natural gas or oil well on less than 1/10th of an acre.  Wind also involves a transmission maintenance and storage investment that is quite massive because generation is intermittent like hydro-electric.  

Each 1,000 kw turbine costs between 600k to over 1 million dollars and we currently consume over 38,000,000 kw in NE Oklahoma.  This would require 38,000 wind turbines at a cost of $22.8 billion dollars, at the low end, just for us poor saps in the PSO served regions of Oklahoma.  It would also require the clearing and maintenance of 1.94 acres for each wind turbine  (73,000 acres)  That's 114 square miles (Tulsa is 182.7 square miles).  So we would nearly the same land mass of Tulsa to provide our power.

A single tornado could wipe out billions of dollars and leave hundreds of thousands of people in the dark for a very long time.  This is not a realistic answer yet, but it will be someday.

Meanwhile, natural gas, clean coal, and hydro-electric are viable.  

[Wrinkle]

quote: Meanwhile, natural gas, clean coal, and hydro-electric are viable.  

"Clean" Coal is a myth.

CO2 Sequestration is the same as storing nuclear waste, and about as economical.

The cost of nuclear is often cited without considering the storage costs or environmental hazard if one were to get out of hand. It's not like it hasn't happened.

Wind does not require 'clearing' land, it's mostly done in areas already open, such as the western half of Oklahoma. The land can still mostly be used for crops, pasture land for grazing or wildlife refuge. And, until they figure out a way to charge for it, wind has a zero fuel cost, and zero emissions.

Since 1980, the cost of wind generated energy has fallen year after year from around $.80/KWH to around $0.06/KWH UNTIL 2006 when it began to rise, now up more than 60% since 2006. What happened?

What happened is big energy stepped in and caused industry-wide escalation in their attempt to corner the wind market. That and wind is now only attempting to maintain par with other energy production methods, so the market for energy produced by coal and/or natural gas is dictating wind costs.

Wind now needs more competition in the market to bring prices back down. So long as demand remains strong, wind costs will no longer reduce.

The same thing has not yet happened to solar and fuel cell markets, though both still have technological barriers keeping their prices high. As that improves, expect what has happened in wind markets to occur in those as well.

WE NEED FEED-IN TARIFFS IN OKLAHOMA!
Carbon Credits are industry's 'solution' to keep prices high and markets controlled.

As for geothermal, it is about as limited resource as the sun. Anything which can be counted in billions of years is considered inexhaustible. If it is classified as non-renewable, then so should air, oxygen, hydrogen and solar (the sun will also eventually burn out).

[Wrinkle]

I'd like to raise the question of how much we should consider energy a National Security issue?

If it's not, then certainly, free world markets are the way to go. Demand would strickly drive the market price and supplies could be manipulated to achieve the best market price.

If it is, as I suggest, then what's a practical solution to securing our energy dependence?

As stated in a post above, big energy is now almost totally a world market from a corporate standpoint.

It does seem strange to me that oil, in particular, is produced here, then sold to a world market before being bought back for our own use.

While I remain opposed to nationalization of energy companies, it would seem practical to me that all local production first be sold into a local (national) market and then excesses sold to the international market. That could be legislated without 'nationalizing' companies. Though, it would tend to promote their assets being applied to other, more profitable markets, there would remain a good deal of margin in local markets, with local companies egar to participate.

It makes no sense, to me, that local production is sold into world markets when we are importing production from other countries to meet our own demand.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

quote: Meanwhile, natural gas, clean coal, and hydro-electric are viable.  

"Clean" Coal is a myth.

CO2 Sequestration is the same as storing nuclear waste, and about as economical.

The cost of nuclear is often cited without considering the storage costs or environmental hazard if one were to get out of hand. It's not like it hasn't happened.

Wind does not require 'clearing' land, it's mostly done in areas already open, such as the western half of Oklahoma. The land can still mostly be used for crops, pasture land for grazing or wildlife refuge. And, until they figure out a way to charge for it, wind has a zero fuel cost, and zero emissions.

Since 1980, the cost of wind generated energy has fallen year after year from around $.80/KWH to around $0.06/KWH UNTIL 2006 when it began to rise, now up more than 60% since 2006. What happened?

What happened is big energy stepped in and caused industry-wide escalation in their attempt to corner the wind market. That and wind is now only attempting to maintain par with other energy production methods, so the market for energy produced by coal and/or natural gas is dictating wind costs.

Wind now needs more competition in the market to bring prices back down. So long as demand remains strong, wind costs will no longer reduce.

The same thing has not yet happened to solar and fuel cell markets, though both still have technological barriers keeping their prices high. As that improves, expect what has happened in wind markets to occur in those as well.

WE NEED FEED-IN TARIFFS IN OKLAHOMA!
Carbon Credits are industry's 'solution' to keep prices high and markets controlled.

As for geothermal, it is about as limited resource as the sun. Anything which can be counted in billions of years is considered inexhaustible. If it is classified as non-renewable, then so should air, oxygen, hydrogen and solar (the sun will also eventually burn out).

The windy hills that are selected in western Oklahoma are not cleared.  Just a gravel road to the construction site for construction and maintenance of the wind mills.

Problem with wind power is whether the wind generators will last long enough to recover the cost.

A lot goes wrong with them.  

For instance, in too high of wind, they can be literally thrown apart if the cut-off switch doesn't activate.  

A million dollars worth of broken parts then litter the landscapes.  

Ouch!

And, regarding mixed land use, the cattle continue to graze around the windmills.

Birds have a problem at night or low light seeing the enormous twirling blades.

The upside is that you can get there early in the morning and feed your family from the dead bird harvest.

The carnivores do..........easier than chasing those wily wabbits.



[]

[Gaspar]

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

I'd like to raise the question of how much we should consider energy a National Security issue?

If it's not, then certainly, free world markets are the way to go. Demand would strickly drive the market price and supplies could be manipulated to achieve the best market price.

If it is, as I suggest, then what's a practical solution to securing our energy dependence?

As stated in a post above, big energy is now almost totally a world market from a corporate standpoint.

It does seem strange to me that oil, in particular, is produced here, then sold to a world market before being bought back for our own use.

While I remain opposed to nationalization of energy companies, it would seem practical to me that all local production first be sold into a local (national) market and then excesses sold to the international market. That could be legislated without 'nationalizing' companies. Though, it would tend to promote their assets being applied to other, more profitable markets, there would remain a good deal of margin in local markets, with local companies egar to participate.

It makes no sense, to me, that local production is sold into world markets when we are importing production from other countries to meet our own demand.

I would say that it is THE issue.  Nothing else can happen until we solve this problem.  We are under the control of our detractors.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

I'd like to raise the question of how much we should consider energy a National Security issue?

If it's not, then certainly, free world markets are the way to go. Demand would strickly drive the market price and supplies could be manipulated to achieve the best market price.

If it is, as I suggest, then what's a practical solution to securing our energy dependence?

As stated in a post above, big energy is now almost totally a world market from a corporate standpoint.

It does seem strange to me that oil, in particular, is produced here, then sold to a world market before being bought back for our own use.

While I remain opposed to nationalization of energy companies, it would seem practical to me that all local production first be sold into a local (national) market and then excesses sold to the international market. That could be legislated without 'nationalizing' companies. Though, it would tend to promote their assets being applied to other, more profitable markets, there would remain a good deal of margin in local markets, with local companies egar to participate.

It makes no sense, to me, that local production is sold into world markets when we are importing production from other countries to meet our own demand.

I would say that it is THE issue.  Nothing else can happen until we solve this problem.  We are under the control of our detractors.

Regarding Saudi Arabian Oil:

We need their Oil.

We don't need them......

ALIVE...

After the Nerve Gas, for any still standing, if it's wearing a Rag on its head, Gun It and Get On.......but,

Remember to pack in plenty of Ammo.  There's 30 million of the Sons of Allah.

Regarding the shooting of Burqua'd Women:

Remember:  It is approved.  They breed Islamicists.  Regrettably.

Use the Three-Round Burst Limiter Setting....

Standard Fire Control Protocol:  

Two in the chest, and One in the Head.

They won't be missed......

Did I mention that 15 of 19 9-11-01 Hijackers were bred from our friends the Saudis?

Allah Akbar!

Barack bin Obama for President??

Barack Affirms:  I did NOT graduate from an Indonesian Madrassa!

Attend a Madrassa?

Next question, Islamophob!

Aren't they the Religion of Peace, like GWBush tells us RIGHT after 9-11?

Did I mention that King George Bush I is a major shareholder in the Carlyle Group, a major investor in Arabia?

Sure, just a coincidence.........Let's move on....