Tulsa rail service among goals as Ridley is appointed to Governor's cabinet

[nathanm]

Good luck building high speed rail through the Ozark Mountains.

Eh, if they could build I-540 in Arkansas, it's certainly possible to build a high speed rail alignment. Less earth to move than for an interstate, or at least no more.

It would be expensive going the St. Louis route, though. Better off to go either through bartlesville and on up to KC or over between Springdale and Rogers on a new (actually re-constituted..there used to be a rail line from a spot between Springdale and Rogers all the way out past Siloam to at least Choteau) alignment then see about getting the Arkansas-Missouri to straighten out their trackage. They already welded all the rails a few years back..they're in far better shape than most short lines.

The problem with the Bartlesville route is that Kansas probably won't have much interest in upgrading the track in SE Kansas. In Arkansas, there would be the problem of people generally not seeing the value of rail at all, although the folks in NW Arkansas have been talking about running passenger rail on the Arkansas-Missouri tracks for a couple of years now. What I don't know is how Missouri would respond.

I know Kansas wouldn't be pleased, but why should I care? They're part of the crew that's attempting to cut Tulsa out entirely.

[TheArtist]

Honestly, yes. It has to do with which one benefits OKC more. Rail in Tulsa has no benefit to OKC, so they will never pass it. However, a connector line between the two cities means that we can begin operating as an OKC-Tulsa metroplex (think smaller DFW). This increases the ability to draw events and conventions if we operate as one large city, instead of two medium-sized cities.

Obviously, I would prefer both and even prefer Tulsa rail more, but I'm realistic in how state government currently works. It has to show a direct benefit to OKC for anything to get done here.

Or the chance that they can get what they want with the least fuss and least amount of money. We can raise a stink and holler and complain,,, but if they can get the rail to Kansas for 15mill or whatever it will be, I dont think we can raise a billion dollars more worth of fuss to convince them to put a line into Tulsa lol.  BUT it is possible to raise enough stink to get something, OR as I have mentioned before get the more expensive OKC/Tulsa rail "started".

Even IF the state decided to do the Tulsa to OKC rail.  And I am sure we can get lip service or even the stated desire to do it. They will likely build the immensely less expensive and quicker to implement route to Newton first. And it could be a looooooooooooong time before they will get started on the "more desirable" "of course" line between Tulsa and OKC, or even the spur from Tulsa to the other line.

What I am really trying to get is someone to realize the high likelihood of this scenario. And if this is the likely scenario. Our rail line in the city, doesnt have to be painted as rail within Tulsa at all. It can be painted as THE START, the FIRST PHASE, of a future Tulsa to OKC or spur line. Get me? Plus you can say to the state that it has the added benefit, it can play double duty to being the basis for a rail network within Tulsa. That just gives the partial, starting funding a little more worthiness and positive leverage.  



Raise a stink and holler and fuss and try to get the rail to Tulsa. But also be proffering the other option, that if the state goes with the cheaper route first, (promising the Tulsa OKC line at a later date) at least get something started in Tulsa to throw us a bone. Its cheaper all the way around, everyone gets something.

Its just Sooooooooo incredibly cheaper for OKC to push the newton line and not do the other one to Tulsa at all. But if what we get in Tulsa is that first start for the OKC-Tulsa line.... fantastic, cause it can still be used as the basis for commuter rail IN Tulsa. That downtown segment has to be done no matter what you do. OKC-Tulsa, Tulsa Spur, Tulsa Commuter, Tulsa-wherever... It has to be done first anyway, so get something for it while there is some leverage to be had. As in, get funding now, not some indeterminate "later".

Push for the big option, but have the other notion right there as backup plan B.

[SXSW]

Eh, if they could build I-540 in Arkansas, it's certainly possible to build a high speed rail alignment. Less earth to move than for an interstate, or at least no more.

It would be expensive going the St. Louis route, though. Better off to go either through bartlesville and on up to KC or over between Springdale and Rogers on a new (actually re-constituted..there used to be a rail line from a spot between Springdale and Rogers all the way out past Siloam to at least Choteau) alignment then see about getting the Arkansas-Missouri to straighten out their trackage. They already welded all the rails a few years back..they're in far better shape than most short lines.

The problem with the Bartlesville route is that Kansas probably won't have much interest in upgrading the track in SE Kansas. In Arkansas, there would be the problem of people generally not seeing the value of rail at all, although the folks in NW Arkansas have been talking about running passenger rail on the Arkansas-Missouri tracks for a couple of years now. What I don't know is how Missouri would respond.

I know Kansas wouldn't be pleased, but why should I care? They're part of the crew that's attempting to cut Tulsa out entirely.

Don't they have some preliminary plans in place for a Bentonville-Rogers-Springdale-Fayetteville commuter/light rail line?  I know UA architecture students have done some projects related to it.  That would be nuts if NW Arkansas had some kind of regional rail before Tulsa.

[nathanm]

Don't they have some preliminary plans in place for a Bentonville-Rogers-Springdale-Fayetteville commuter/light rail line?  I know UA architecture students have done some projects related to it.  That would be nuts if NW Arkansas had some kind of regional rail before Tulsa.

The plan is to use the existing track operated by the Arkansas-Missouri Railroad. The downside being that they have to use full FRA-compliant rolling stock, which is heavier and more expensive to purchase and operate. That and it's not double tracked, but at the frequencies they are contemplating, that shouldn't be a big problem.

Edited to add: Honestly, there's actually more of a need for commuter rail in NW Arkansas than there is here in Tulsa. Our roads are generally sized such that they can handle the peak load well enough. I-540 between Lowell and Springdale regularly sees ridiculous slowdowns. (Like 20mph) They're at the point where they either have to widen the road or get cars off the road some other way.

The problem with commuter rail there as a solution to that problem is that the rail isn't at all conveniently located for most people.

[Red Arrow]

over between Springdale and Rogers on a new (actually re-constituted..there used to be a rail line from a spot between Springdale and Rogers all the way out past Siloam to at least Choteau) alignment then see about getting the Arkansas-Missouri to straighten out their trackage.

I can't find any old ROW on my maps going east out of Chouteau.  I'm missing a bunch of years. I found a 1915 map on the internet which shows a line from Fayetteville (area) to Tahlequah.  It was originally the Ozark & Cherokee .... RR then later bought by Frisco.  There was another line running NE from the Chouteau area, I think the Missouri Oklahoma & Gulf or something like that. It went essentially up the east side of Grand River.  Both are long gone.

Anyway, if you have access to a few maps between 1915 and now available on the internet, please post some links.

[Transport_Oklahoma]

TheArtist,

It is a little disappointing to read that outburst.  

Oklahoma Rail's first proposal for an Oklahoma ARRA (stimulus) rail application will be what I think you want. 

The transit portion of the ARRA is already spoken for.  It will be used for bus replacement and bus stop improvements.  Transit was subject to the "shovel ready" test and Dallas and maybe Houston was the only thing "ready" around here. 

Intercity rail is not subject to as rigorous a test.  Oklahoma has a modest shot at getting some federal capital funding for intecity projects.  The same infrastructure required for high frequency service from DFW and OKC plus regional rail to STL is required for the spine of commuter rail downtown.  The Passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act says that intercity projects that benefit commuter rail or freight rail are to be looked on with more favor.  However they can't be used for freight-only or commuter-only.   

Both Kansas, Missouri, and Oklahoma are facing budget shortfalls.  Therefore there are not going to be any new operating funds with which to get any of these proposals going until things turn around fiscally.  That's just more time for grass roots movement-building IMHO.    

[TheArtist]

TheArtist,

It is a little disappointing to read that outburst.  

Oklahoma Rail's first proposal for an Oklahoma ARRA (stimulus) rail application will be what I think you want. 

The transit portion of the ARRA is already spoken for.  It will be used for bus replacement and bus stop improvements.  Transit was subject to the "shovel ready" test and Dallas and maybe Houston was the only thing "ready" around here. 

Intercity rail is not subject to as rigorous a test.  Oklahoma has a modest shot at getting some federal capital funding for intecity projects.  The same infrastructure required for high frequency service from DFW and OKC plus regional rail to STL is required for the spine of commuter rail downtown.  The Passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act says that intercity projects that benefit commuter rail or freight rail are to be looked on with more favor.  However they can't be used for freight-only or commuter-only.   

Both Kansas, Missouri, and Oklahoma are facing budget shortfalls.  Therefore there are not going to be any new operating funds with which to get any of these proposals going until things turn around fiscally.  That's just more time for grass roots movement-building IMHO.    

My apologies, low blood sugar level that day and just feeling frustrated that things dont seem to go Tulsas way whenever the state is involved with any "divying out of funds" plus we seem to so often bungle it ourselves. The dams/indian museum thing being the most recent example.

[nathanm]

I can't find any old ROW on my maps going east out of Chouteau.  I'm missing a bunch of years. I found a 1915 map on the internet which shows a line from Fayetteville (area) to Tahlequah.  It was originally the Ozark & Cherokee .... RR then later bought by Frisco.  There was another line running NE from the Chouteau area, I think the Missouri Oklahoma & Gulf or something like that. It went essentially up the east side of Grand River.  Both are long gone.

Anyway, if you have access to a few maps between 1915 and now available on the internet, please post some links.

I have a book titled "Short Line Railroads of Arkansas" or somesuch that has some info on it. I still don't have all my books unpacked since the move, so it may be a bit before I find it. I was thinking it was the Arkansas, Oklahoma & Western, but Wikipedia claims it only made it as far as Siloam Springs. (via Cave Springs and Springtown)

It's amazing how few traces of either the Ozark and Cherokee Central or Arkansas, Oklahoma & Western there are remaining. I have thus far been unable to locate anything on aerial images of the line from Cave Springs to Fayetteville. I think at least some of the O&CC ROW was used to build US-62, although I don't have any old maps to confirm it.

[SXSW]

I am surprised there is no remaining rail link between Tulsa and Northwest Arkansas. 

[nathanm]

I am surprised there is no remaining rail link between Tulsa and Northwest Arkansas. 

Given that only one rail line persists in NW Arkansas to this day (two, if you count the line from Rogers to Bentonville which was built independently), I'm not.

Sadly, what little teensy bit remained of the O&CC was pulled up around 10 years ago after some a**hole burned a bridge over a little creek just east of the underpass beneath the A&M main line.

Red Arrow, I found a reference that the Arkansas & Oklahoma went from Rogers to Grove in 1900. Do your maps bear that out? The 1898 Rand McNally Arkansas map available on the library of congress' site shows it going up into Missouri from Rogers.

[Transport_Oklahoma]

Obama rail plans to be announced Thursday

(We hear it will be at 8:00 CDT-I imagine C-SPAN will carry it live.)

This could be the equivalent of Eisenhower's plan for the interstate highway system.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The Obama administration is expected to unveil its plans on Thursday for accelerating development of high-speed rail, a concept that in the past has had mixed political support and little public funding.

"It will be broad and strategic," Karen Rae, acting head of the Federal Railroad Administration, told Reuters in an interview on Tuesday about the initiative described by officials as President Barack Obama's top transportation priority.

"It's going to talk about how we begin to create this new vision for high-speed and intercity rail," Rae said.

White House and transportation officials have spent the past several weeks weighing plans for developing at least six high-speed corridors.

High-speed rail initiatives are in various planning stages in California, Florida, Nevada, the Carolinas and the Northeast. States are already formulating how to use the large appropriation for high-speed rail projects in the economic stimulus act.

"Some of these plans are 20 years old," said Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood in an interview this week with Reuters Financial Television.

In February, Congress included $8 billion for rail development in the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act and Obama has included another $5 billion for the efforts in the White House's proposed budget.

LaHood said the $8 billion in stimulus money will "jump-start" the process, but rail advocates and transportation officials agree that financing high-speed rail nationally will cost significantly more.

The plan to be released on Thursday is required by the stimulus act, but Rae said it will "reference the broader rail agenda that is out there."

Rae said she hopes her agency beats the next deadline set by the act on June 17 to provide guidance on how the competitive grants in the stimulus bill will be evaluated.

Government financing for passenger rail has been a contentious political issue for years although supporters have long touted its popularity in Europe and Asia. The U.S. government defines high-speed rail as "intercity passenger rail service that is reasonably expected to reach speeds of at least 110 miles per hour."

Supporters of Amtrak, the country's heavily subsidized and only long-haul passenger rail service, fought bitter political battles with the Bush administration to keep the network running nationally. Now, Amtrak and passenger rail advocates have powerful new allies in the Obama administration and Democratic lawmakers heading up key committees.

Midwestern governors recently wrote Secretary LaHood asking for $3.4 billion of the funding to build up high-speed rail corridors in Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Michigan, Minnesota, Ohio and Wisconsin.

"I believe Missouri and the other states in our region present a compelling and united case to the Obama Administration to fund these projects," Missouri Gov. Jay Nixon said in a statement on Tuesday.

"Our states have been working on this rail initiative for more than a decade, and we will aggressively compete for these Recovery Act funds specifically designated for high-speed rail projects," he added.

[Red Arrow]

Red Arrow, I found a reference that the Arkansas & Oklahoma went from Rogers to Grove in 1900. Do your maps bear that out? The 1898 Rand McNally Arkansas map available on the library of congress' site shows it going up into Missouri from Rogers.

My two major references are a 1915 map I found on the internet and a 2007 Map by the State of OK that I got from a friend at work.  The 2007 map is also on the internet.  The 1915 map shows a connection through Grove.

http://www.okladot.state.ok.us/hqdiv/p-r-div/maps/railroad/index.htm

http://okgenweb.org/okprojects/xref/map/ok-west.jpg

http://okgenweb.org/okprojects/xref/map/ok-east.jpg

The 1915 map is in two parts, east and west.

Enjoy

RA

[TURobY]

I'm a little concerned with the meeting today. I couldn't get a good look at the map on the stage, but it didn't appear to have Tulsa...

I was watching CNN's live feed. Did anyone else watch from a different vantage point? I'm hoping that the map just wasn't drawn acturately as far as city geography is concerned.

[Transport_Oklahoma]

Turoby,

The press release mentions Tulsa.

Time for a new thread!

[stageidea]

I am certainly excited:
http://www.progressiverailroading.com/news/article.asp?id=20191