Re: Cherry Street Parking Plan

[carltonplace]

Side note: I have asked a City Engineer (during a Swan Lake neighborhood meeting) if we could put a pedestrian crossing at 21st/St. Louis with a blinking yellow light to "alert" motorists that *gasp* people like to cross there on foot to go to/from Swan Lake and Woodward Park (this is a VERY popular place for neighborhood folks to cross that are out for a walk).  He promptly replied "We would not consider that as it would give the pedestrian a false sense of security". 

What a typically stupid response from a traffic engineer (I think I know which one you spoke to, just based on this response). Does this mean that school zones give our children a false sense of security? Do curbs and sidewalks give pedestrians a false sense of security? Do green lights and crossing lights give pedestrians and motorists a false sense of security (I would have been mowed over at 5th and Boston yesterday by a pickup that ignored the red light if I hadn't "looked both ways before I crossed)?

No, everyone knows to be aware of their surroundings before they leap into oncoming traffic. I guess this "engineer" thinks that if you are on foot you must be stupid or foolish and unable to ascertain when it is safe to cross.

Back on topic, I think Eric has a workable plan here. It isn't too expensive to implement and it relieves a lot of parking and speeding concerns. Should they be metered? I don't think they need to be unless all of the money collected were redistributed for on street improvements, but I can't imagine that collections would amount to very much.

[patric]

Side note: I have asked a City Engineer (during a Swan Lake neighborhood meeting) if we could put a pedestrian crossing at 21st/St. Louis with a blinking yellow light to "alert" motorists that *gasp* people like to cross there on foot to go to/from Swan Lake and Woodward Park (this is a VERY popular place for neighborhood folks to cross that are out for a walk).  He promptly replied "We would not consider that as it would give the pedestrian a false sense of security". 

But we give pedestrians a false sense of security by lighting expressways as if they were city streets --
which encourages some to treat expressways as if they were crossing Brookside...

It's hard to visualize improper street lighting as actually contributing to deaths instead of the other way around, but then most people dont understand streetlighitng is more for pedestrians than automobiles.   

[carltonplace]

Or we could increase pedestrian crossings when we split the city and neighborhoods apart, and make the roadway itself less pedestrian permeable.

Example: HWY 51 has no place for a pedestrian to circumvent the highway between Cincinatti and Peoria, Peoria and St Louis, Utica and Lewis, Lewis to 15th and beyond 21st potential places to "walk around" the highway decrease.

Example 2: I see people crossing 75 all of the time (in daylight) between 36th and 46th St N, because there are neighborhoods on both sides and they don't want to walk a mile out of their way, so they take their lives in their hands.

Example 3: I44 from Sheridan to Harvard, people get hit here all of the time trying to take a short cut rather then walk up to the nearest underpass and back.

[Red Arrow]

  So, I agree that by-passes occur, but really it is a net gain for business because it "culls" out the folks that are going to just drive by anyway (and not stop).

 

One would think that except that merchants typically want all the traffic they can get, hoping to get a small portion as casual customers.  This is evidenced by small towns resisting a by-pass.  Then they set trap type speed limits for the safety of their citizens.  If my goal is to get from A to B with town X in the middle, I will probably not buy anything in X regardless of traffic options.  If I want to visit town X, I will.  I think there must be more drivers than me that think that way.

One attraction to places like Cherry St and Brookside is that they do have businesses that don't exist in many or any other places.  To get customer traffic, they need to be customer friendly.  At present, that includes automobiles.  FWIW,  I think the parking at Tulsa Hills (71st and US75) is very automobile unfriendly.  It's difficult to find your way into and out of the parking areas.  I guess they were attempting to keep the parking lot speeds down.  Either that or some artsie type designer had more clout than the traffic engineers.  Pretty (for a parking lot) but non-functional.  They have kept my speed down to near zero.  I don't like to go there.  The Super WalMart at 81st and Lewis is equally terrible.  I have avoided that store at almost all costs.  Big parking lots alone are not enough to draw a crowd.

I wish Cherry St and other places like it success.  That is what makes going to a city more desirable than a trip to the mall. The "Cherry Streets" need to combine the aesthetic and practical and not totally fall prey to the anti-automobile zealots.

[Conan71]

What a typically stupid response from a traffic engineer (I think I know which one you spoke to, just based on this response).

Typical Public Works bureaucratic tool.

[TheArtist]

Perhaps I am the odd person out here, but whenever I go down Brookside or Cherry Street, I like to drive slower than a lot of people. Going down those streets is kind of a "little enjoyment" and I dont mind taking a bit more time to do so, and get frustrated when some wingnut in a hurry comes charging down on me at 20 or 25mph lol. Sloooow down and enjoy. I think it a bit odd that someone would want to rush through like that. Even when I am going somewhere in which the most direct route wouldnt take me down either of those streets, I will go out of my way to take the "scenic route" down those streets. If someone is in such a hurry and not having any urge what so ever to enjoy the street and see whats around them,,, I dont think they would be your likely "happen to see it and stop" customer to any of the places there. They obviously just want to get to point B, and in a hurry. So no loss if they start to avoid the street during those times. On the whole, I doubt it would be that many people who would avoid the street. As mid-town, and even these streets, infill and becomes even more dense and attractive, it will draw more and more people to them.

This has got me thinking. Contrary to many a stereotype, it seems to me that the "urban dweller, slow down enjoy the view, narrow the streets, widen the sidewalk, sit and have a latte at a sidewalk cafe" lifestyle can be seen as more slow paced and relaxed than the "try to rush here rush there all over gods good earth on widened roads and highways to the megastores, suburban dweller". Or perhaps its that for those with a suburbanite mindset, all roads are things solely meant to get you as quickly as possible from one place to another so you can then relax or visit at home. But for those with an urbanite mindset, many streets and sidewalks, like these in particular, are seen as part of ones home and community, where you live, work, walk, relax and visit. Not something you rush through in a hurry and ignore.     

[Red Arrow]

Artist,
I guess you and I will have to disagree somewhat, again.  In a world of Type A and Type B personalities, I expect you are Type C.  Really relaxed. (I consider myself a B+ or A-.) I don't consider 20 to 25 MPH barreling down on someone on a through road, even with shopping.  Most school zones are that speed limit.  You are cussing the wingnuts but they are cussing the dipsticks that don't drive faster than a walk.  In fact, why not park and walk?  You could see what you want without being a distracted driver.  Even a few MPH causes a lot of $ damage to cars anymore.  Unless I have an interest in something on Cherry St or Brookside, I do use another street.  There's not really much I'm interested in seeing there on a regular basis.  I'm not necessarily in a hurry, just a bit impatient with driving window shoppers. "Hurry" is a relative term anyway.  If those streets in-fill with interesting places, they will become a destination.  If they are filled with just another (insert business of your choice), they will be patronized by locals but probably not too many visitors.  But.. That goes along with your urban village nodes and that's fine.

Sitting down at a sidewalk cafe or sitting on your porch at home (applicable to urban, suburban, and rural homes) sipping beverage of your choice is nice and likely relaxing.  I admit to avoiding 71st between Memorial and Garnett as much a possible.  I need to go there about a half-dozen times a year to get nicer stuff than I can get at WalMart.  I understand your mindset that the streets, sidewalks etc are part of what you consider your home.  I am not of that mind set. My visions of urban dwelling are mostly going through South Philly taking dad to the Int'l Airport for a business trip in the 50s and early 60s.  Most of those places were torn down as part of "Urban Renewal" in the 60s.  They did not look like an appealing place to live. Take a trip up Germantown Ave in Philly using street view on Google.  A lot of it is dismal and unappealing to me until you get to the Germantown part of NW Philly where the money is.  That is, of course, nice.  Downtowns used to have specialty shops of all kinds.  That made going downtown (or up depending on the city) worthwhile and fun.  A lot of that is gone now.  I think some of that being gone is because it was just too inconvenient to go and the rewards weren't worth the hassle.

[waterboy]

Red, I've been real impressed with your defense of the suburban lifestyle and attempting to logically deal with its attendant problems. Life over in this part of town is, however, quite different. Artist makes a point I can relate to since I drive Cherry Street to work and back each day, even though I could just easily drive up 14th and back on 13th just as quickly without as much traffic. But that would be boring. One side is a freeway landscape and the other side is rental homes backyards. I travel along Peoria through Brookside as much as I do Riverside just because its more interesting usually. Riverside is filled with hot dogs and downtowners heading home quickly.

No, I enjoy watching my hoods to see who is doing what, who has opened something or closed something. I even like watching other people drink beer and schmooze on open patios while I slow down to allow their friends to risk their well being to cross without benefit of stop signs, lights or crosswalks. Brookside has the best looking women to lurk at. Cherry street patrons are having more fun.

When I visited near downtown KC I felt more threatened. When I visit downtown Minneapolis I get that neighborhood feeling again and I know many others who feel the same way Mr. Artist feels.

[Red Arrow]

Red, I've been real impressed with your defense of the suburban lifestyle and attempting to logically deal with its attendant problems. Life over in this part of town is, however, quite different. Artist makes a point I can relate to since I drive Cherry Street to work and back each day, even though I could just easily drive up 14th and back on 13th just as quickly without as much traffic. But that would be boring. One side is a freeway landscape and the other side is rental homes backyards. I travel along Peoria through Brookside as much as I do Riverside just because its more interesting usually. Riverside is filled with hot dogs and downtowners heading home quickly.

No, I enjoy watching my hoods to see who is doing what, who has opened something or closed something. I even like watching other people drink beer and schmooze on open patios while I slow down to allow their friends to risk their well being to cross without benefit of stop signs, lights or crosswalks. Brookside has the best looking women to lurk at. Cherry street patrons are having more fun.

When I visited near downtown KC I felt more threatened. When I visit downtown Minneapolis I get that neighborhood feeling again and I know many others who feel the same way Mr. Artist feels.

I understand that some folks like the urban lifestyle.  I think some have over romanticized it but that's OK too.  Some of us are just interested in other things.  The only things I resent are the implication that suburbanites are the scum of the planet and responsible for all the ills of society.  (An exaggeration) I just try to present an alternate view.  I do occasionally visit Brookside and Cherry St, often just to see what folks here are talking about.  Occasionally I actually stop in somewhere and buy something.  There are some nice opportunities there.  I am however, the type to take the Turner Turnpike rather than Historic Rt 66.  One of the things I find fun is to fly over old RR routes and see where they went and whether there is anything left.  It's interesting to see the towns they went through or around.  I am also the type to pass a slow driver (if it's safe and legal) because I find them to be annoying and arrogant (for wasting my time) realizing that any time I save will be lost at the next traffic light.

[TheArtist]

Here ya go Red Arrow   

http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/worklife/06/06/balance.slow.movement/

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_Movement

Btw, I was being facetious with my 20-25mph comment. A little facetious anyway. 

[Red Arrow]

Here ya go Red Arrow   

http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/worklife/06/06/balance.slow.movement/

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_Movement

Btw, I was being facetious with my 20-25mph comment. A little facetious anyway. 

There are at least 2 kinds of trips.  One where the journey is the goal.  Another where the destination is the goal. If the journey is the goal then fine, stay off the interstates, take the Cherry Streets and Brooksides.  There is nothing wrong with that.  It's generally not my choice but occasionally it is.  I did drive slowly through Regal Plaza just to see what's there.  Unfortunately not much interested me.  I remember the family vacations when I was a teen going to visit my grandparents in FL from our place near Philly, PA.  The goal was to spend time at my Grandparents' place.  Interstate 95 wasn't done except in a few places.  US 301 and 17 went through a lot of small towns that were just a nuisance.  We did have a few favorite stops to buy dinner supplies to stop at favorite roadside parks for dinner and to stretch our legs.  Dad, mom, 3 kids and 2 dogs were lucky to go 500 miles in a day.  We did a lot better than the Grizwalds (Family Vacation).  When I came home on leave from the Navy in the 70s, the drive from Va Beach, VA was one long day and one easy day until the speed limit was lowered to 55.  Then it was two long days.  I enjoy driving fast.  55 mph puts me to sleep.  I really enjoyed driving on the Autobahn in Germany.  You had to pay attention.  Lane discipline by (almost all) the drivers was good.  Unfortunately we cannot do the Autobahn thing here because no one can build a smooth road surface and most American drivers got their driver's licence off of a cereal box. Although no matter how fast you were going, there was always someone faster, most of the drivers gravitated between 80 to 100 mph (converted from km/hr of course).  It's just too expensive to drive really fast all the time.

Stop and smell the roses if you want.  I will too if I want to. Just don't condemn me if I have a different goal than you for a trip.