Hardwood on 11th

[cannon_fodder]

#1) It isnt the University's job to ensure financial gain for those leaching off the student body.  Their #1 job is to look after the interests of the students.

#2) TU still provides a TON of financial contribution to the area.  How many professors work there and earn $100K plus a year?  How many coaches?  TU employees something on the order of 2,500 people at good paying jobs, some of them phenomenal paying jobs (several positions over $500,000 a year, many over $200,000).  

#3) TU contributes millions each year to community projects.

#4) Tu still purchases their services locally.  Construction materials, food items, printed materials, etc. etc. etc.  I know we do work for them and I imagine many other companies do as well.

#5) Advertising - "The University of Tulsa" is a  great advertisement for the community.  Every time they go off to win championships in Basketball, Football, Volleyball, Golf or Tennis (in the last 3 years all have been won) Tulsa gets some advertisement.  Every time it is listed on the top 100 Universities, the debate team wins, etc. etc. etc.

#6) Campus area will benefit.
Many of the students live far away.  The area immediately around campus is not cheap and there are not many apartments.  I had friends that lived in Broken Arrow, Jenks, South Tulsa, Sand Springs and other outlying areas so they could get more bang for their buck.  Hopefully, with more students on campus it will encourage businesses to open nearby and try and siphon some student business.

/clearly biased in favor of TU, but that's my take.

[tulsa1603]

Saffron, though nice, wasn't exactly within "walking" distance.  IT was technically close enough, but quite a jot from the main part of campus which is north and west of the Reynold Center.  Also, TU has a fairly small student body, so to rely on a campus of 4000 to fill a coffee house that isn't all that close....eh.  Look at the new coffee place on Cherry Street, though.  It's packed every tiem I go by.  I think it's all a product of pedestrian comfort.  I'm much more comfortable walking down Cherry STreet with a buffer of parked cars, than I am down Harvard, which has higher speeds, less buffer, and fewer windows to shop as you walk.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by tulsa1603

Saffron, though nice, wasn't exactly within "walking" distance.  IT was technically close enough, but quite a jot from the main part of campus which is north and west of the Reynold Center.  Also, TU has a fairly small student body, so to rely on a campus of 4000 to fill a coffee house that isn't all that close....eh.  Look at the new coffee place on Cherry Street, though.  It's packed every tiem I go by.  I think it's all a product of pedestrian comfort.  I'm much more comfortable walking down Cherry STreet with a buffer of parked cars, than I am down Harvard, which has higher speeds, less buffer, and fewer windows to shop as you walk.

Pretty wide sidewalk on that part of Harvard.  Or somone could walk up Gary Pl. then over to Saffrons.

[TURobY]

Saffron's was nice, but the atmosphere was only accessible to a small population of TU. Additionally, those students who might have been interested in Saffron had already found a place at Shades of Brown on Brookside.

In short, TU doesn't need another coffeehouse. The demand isn't there, and the demand that does exist is served by 3-5 other establishments already (including QT).

A small grocery store or 24-hour diner would be in high-demand though. The nearest places are not really within walking distance.

[Conan71]

Well, they scraped the diner and Perry's isn't that far off campus.  Great meat, but I don't suspect many students have the time to smoke ribs or grill steaks.

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

#2) TU still provides a TON of financial contribution to the area.  How many professors work there and earn $100K plus a year?  How many coaches?  TU employees something on the order of 2,500 people at good paying jobs, some of them phenomenal paying jobs (several positions over $500,000 a year, many over $200,000).  

#3) TU contributes millions each year to community projects.

fodder, not really sure where you're getting your numbers from, but...

TU employs right around 1,100 people. That's been the number for years. As for employees making over $500,000 a year, that's probably only one person -- the football coach. As of 3 years ago, there were 3 employees making more than $200k a year -- the football coach, the men's basketball coach, and the president (in that order, from highest to lowest salary). I doubt salaries have gone that crazy in such a short time.

I'd also be curious to know about the math on #3. Thousands of dollars - absolutely. Hundreds of thousands - probably. Millions? Not so sure about that.

Everything else you said is spot-on, though. TU is one of the best things about this city. The university's contribution to Tulsa is so substantial, it's almost impossible to put a dollar value on it.

[cannon_fodder]

- The 2,500 number is not direct employment... it is the number the University uses for its 'economic impact' on employment.  They probably base this on actual employment and then the amount they spend with contractors and figure it translates to X jobs.  Sorry, I did not look into this and just took their number at face value.

- I would assume most professors earn > $100K at an elite private school since they do at any state university.  The head football coach will earn near $1mil with bonuses this year.  I would imagine the basketball coach, president, some member of the board, and/or the director of the endowment makes near $500K also.  Some combination probably gets us to three people.  The $200K range is probably every department head and many of the tenured law school professors.

Private school so this information is not release - but if they want to be competitive with other Universities it is probably an accurate reflection.

- U of Tulsa does indeed contribute millions to the community in grants, donations and gifts.  That information was from the University of Tulsa Trustee Balance sheet as provided in the Alumni Magazine - Summer 2007.  It is not online yet but the information appears on the last page, I believe the number was something like 3.7mil.  I stand to be corrected, but it was a larger number that I expected and thus stood out.

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

- The 2,500 number is not direct employment... it is the number the University uses for its 'economic impact' on employment.  They probably base this on actual employment and then the amount they spend with contractors and figure it translates to X jobs.  Sorry, I did not look into this and just took their number at face value.

- I would assume most professors earn > $100K at an elite private school since they do at any state university.  The head football coach will earn near $1mil with bonuses this year.  I would imagine the basketball coach, president, some member of the board, and/or the director of the endowment makes near $500K also.  Some combination probably gets us to three people.  The $200K range is probably every department head and many of the tenured law school professors.

Private school so this information is not release - but if they want to be competitive with other Universities it is probably an accurate reflection.

- U of Tulsa does indeed contribute millions to the community in grants, donations and gifts.  That information was from the University of Tulsa Trustee Balance sheet as provided in the Alumni Magazine - Summer 2007.  It is not online yet but the information appears on the last page, I believe the number was something like 3.7mil.  I stand to be corrected, but it was a larger number that I expected and thus stood out.

I appreciate the reply. I would buy the community contributions -- thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

However, I hate to tell ya, but the employment number they like to toss around is a lot of bunk. [|)] The actual number the university employs is 1000 or so. They might want to claim indirect employment... but that's a bunch of phoney baloney numbers.

And you'd be surprised at the salaries -- TU lags way behind. There are a number of people making $100k, but the number above $200k is much smaller than you think. Let's just say I have quite a bit of inside info on that subject. []

btw, the football coach isn't going to be paid anywhere near $1 million this year, despite media reports. His actual salary is FAR below that and even his bonuses and coach's show revenue won't get him that high. He's the highest paid employee at the university, but he's not a millionaire just yet...

Anyway, not saying any of this to bust your chops, so please don't take it that way. Just giving you the straight numbers.

[cannon_fodder]

No offense taken, I clearly have no inside information.

The community donations were actually over $5mil when I looked at the report again.

Bleh, anyway, tons of money flowing from there.

[Conan71]

Even though the new apartments don't fit much of the existing residential archetecture which surround the TU campus on all four sides, it does look better than the mis-mash of nasty commercial buildings which where around.

Hopefully it will stimulate more renovations of residential real estate in the near radius.

There was speculation for years, and I'm sure it's easy to de-bunk, that starting in the late 1970's and early '80's TU was buying somewhat delapitated properties west of campus by proxy and getting them approved for section 8 housing to drive down real estate values on the rest of the area, making acquisition for future expansion much cheaper.  I'm just passing on barroom talk and like I said probably easy to de-bunk, but it seemed plausible.

[cannon_fodder]

U of Tulsa actually bought life estates on the property.  They paid for the property at market value discounted for time and allowed the resident to live in it until they died (if they so choose).  That was in the early 1980's and many of those residents have died/moved so the lots were available.  At which point they are bulldozed.

I presume holding a life estate with a wrecking ball waiting might lower surrounding property values, but knowing it is University owned might raise them.  So who knows.

To the best of my knowledge, the U of Tulsa has never owned Section 8 properties.  Are you saying poor people are bad for housing values?

[RecycleMichael]

The hundreds of new apartments/dorm rooms have added to the density of the midtown neighborhood. That has some drawbacks, but will also might spur some new business growth, maybe a closer grocery and even help make mass transit a more viable option.

[patric]

Ive always understood their strategy as publicizing maps of "5-year plans" with areas they plan to expand to, then sit back and watch as the resale value in those targeted areas plunge.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

U of Tulsa actually bought life estates on the property.  They paid for the property at market value discounted for time and allowed the resident to live in it until they died (if they so choose).  That was in the early 1980's and many of those residents have died/moved so the lots were available.  At which point they are bulldozed.

I presume holding a life estate with a wrecking ball waiting might lower surrounding property values, but knowing it is University owned might raise them.  So who knows.

To the best of my knowledge, the U of Tulsa has never owned Section 8 properties.  Are you saying poor people are bad for housing values?

The speculation centered around proxies buying properties, which means, of course, there wouldn't be any record of TU owning section 8 housing.  Again, pure barroom banter nothing more nothing less.  But the banter seemed to fit with the down-turn that happened in the Kendall-Whittier area.  (Must be a Freud thing, I almost put an "s" where the "w" is in Whittier [])

I don't know if you lived in Tulsa or not back then but:

The Kendall-Whittier area made a pretty steep slide down-hill in the late '70's/early '80's.  

Drugs, theft, and other related crimes seem to be the predominant form of entertainment when low and no-income people move to an area which is who was moving in there.  So yes, poor people can affect property values.  And yes, there was somewhat of a crime problem in that area.

If you don't believe me take a spin by some of the projects around town or pull up MLS and see how much lower home values are per square foot in areas where mostly lower income people live.  That's not to say that every poor person is a thief or is on drugs, it's to say that those things seem to be a part of the culture in lower income areas in every city across the nation and crime does affect property values.  Yes I do know that crime occurs in every neighborhood in the city, however, pulling up crime maps from the TPD, there are higher concentrations near gov't subsidized housing.

K-W wasn't exactly considered a rough area until the late '70's.  Before that it was mostly pensioneers and young working couples.

11th Street between about Utica and Delaware was also a pretty good place to find a date back then, and I don't mean with TU girls.

I'm also aware that Universities are frequently in older parts of town which can turn rough after time.  I don't know if it is still the case, but I was told one time that Vanderbilt was in a particularly rough area of Nashville, and I'm sure that's the case in many other big cities or was at some point.