N.I.N.E. Green Built Open House/Tour

[Double A]

Greetings from the Tulsa Loft Project!

We are coming closer to the completion of Oklahoma's most sustainable dwellings with NINE - New Inspiration for a New Environment at 1409 and 1411 S. Rockford Avenue and we cordially invite you to attend our next open house and sustainable discussion and demonstration.

Green Open House tour/ Sustainable Demonstration:

When:  This Saturday, February 23, 2008 at 11:00 am
Where: 1409 S. Rockford Ave. (between 14th and 15th Streets/ Peoria Ave. and Utica Ave.)
Speaking:    Shelby Navarro, LEED AP – ONE Architecture - Architect and part of the development team for NINE
                    Loren Wakefield – Garland roofing – cool roofing, green roofs, no VOC roofs, etc.

The edition of the NINE open house will showcase the sustainable elements of the townhomes and the architect will be on hand to discuss and have viewable samples of sustainable techniques and materials.  As a bonus, the first of a continuing series of specific sustainability discussions, we will have roofing specialist Lauren Wakefield on hand to present sustainable roofing types and answer any questions you may have on the subject.

We look forward to seeing you there.

Also, Shelby Navarro, architect for NINE will be appearing Tuesday morning on Fox23 New This Morning, cable channel 5, to participate in 3 - 4 short segments on the morning show related to 'going green'.  The segments will run on the hour and half hour from 7am to 8am.  Please tune in!  If you miss the segments you can download content from their website: www.fox23.com.

If you are in need of directions or wish to be removed from this mailing list please reply with the request.

Regards,

Tulsa Loft Project

P.S. - Future Open house discussion subjects include:

Solar power and hot water systems
SIP framing systems
GeoThermal heating and cooling systems
Energy saving LED and compact fluorescent lighting and control systems
More to come....

[sgrizzle]

Tuesday as in next week or two days ago?

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

Tuesday as in next week or two days ago?

I was wondering that myself. You should really check this out, this is a great example of the kind of appropriate infill Tulsa Now advocates, not just because of the Green factor, but also the attention to scale and setbacks.

[OurTulsa]

Shelby was on Fox this past Tuesday.  The Fox interviews were requested last minute so there wasn't much notice for them to provide.

Those townhomes are incredibly cool.  The materials and practices those guys are using are way ahead of the curve.  Hopefully they will have access to the roof deck available; it's a must see view of downtown.  I wish more of these sort of townhomes were going up in our inner neighborhoods.  

If anything the tour is worth going to just to get ideas for your own home.  They talk about lighting, toilets, insulation, windows, paints, recycled glass countertops...  

I was in there just the other day with one of the partners and it's really impressive.  It's pricy but not really much more than the other stuffed townhomes going in the hood and it seems like you would get sooooooo much more with one of these.  They are also including the option of having a garage apartment off the alley to keep some version of affordable housing in the trendy hood and off set the cost to the owner.

The more I learn about these townhomes the more impressed I am.  Nevermind the fact that they actually have a really nice design to them.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by OurTulsa

Shelby was on Fox this past Tuesday.  The Fox interviews were requested last minute so there wasn't much notice for them to provide.

Those townhomes are incredibly cool.  The materials and practices those guys are using are way ahead of the curve.  Hopefully they will have access to the roof deck available; it's a must see view of downtown.  I wish more of these sort of townhomes were going up in our inner neighborhoods.  

If anything the tour is worth going to just to get ideas for your own home.  They talk about lighting, toilets, insulation, windows, paints, recycled glass countertops...  

I was in there just the other day with one of the partners and it's really impressive.  It's pricy but not really much more than the other stuffed townhomes going in the hood and it seems like you would get sooooooo much more with one of these.  They are also including the option of having a garage apartment off the alley to keep some version of affordable housing in the trendy hood and off set the cost to the owner.

The more I learn about these townhomes the more impressed I am.  Nevermind the fact that they actually have a really nice design to them.

They are a class act all the way. A breath of fresh air compared to all the economically segregated, cheaply constructed, lot cramming scrape and rapes going in over in my beloved former hood.

[Double A]

Did anybody go check these out? Thoughts?

[Gaspar]

They are very nice, and Shelby is a very talented architect!  

I thought they scrapped the installation of the solar system because it was obscured by an old tree on the south that they were unwilling to cut down.  They coulden't get it to produce enough energy to heat the water.  

At least that's what I heard from them last year??  
Perhaps they cut the tree down?

I noticed that they are listed on Caldwell Banker's site at $425,000.  

About $200 a square foot. . .Wow!

[tulsa1603]

I know Shelby personally, we actually went to architecture school together, green design is his passion, and he really means it, it's not just an advertising gimmick.  As for the $200 per square foot price, all that thought, all the components, etc, they come at a price!  I think it's a pretty good value compared to some of the thoughtless stuff I've seen going up in the same area.

[OurTulsa]

You are certainly getting more than square footage for that price.  What's not included in the $/sq. ft. is the private court yard between your outdoor dining room and garage/studio and a roof deck with a spectacular view of downtown, Cherry St, and the Hillcrest area.  They are putting in 'accordian' doors that can essentially eliminate the wall separating the dining area at the back and the covered outdoor space which looks like it will really extend that space.  Just for those elements I would say $200/ sq. ft. is a bargain for either one of these townhomes.  You can rent out the studio above the garage to help offset the mortgage.  But just in case your not convinced yet I'll mention all the green elements.

I went to the open house this weekend.  There were somewhere around 50 - 60 folks there.  They were introducing and demonstrating all of their sustainable elements.  Some of the more memorable/ valuable elements included the green roof, water catchment system, SIP frames, on-demand water heater, geo-thermal heating/cooling system, recycled glass/paper countertops, bamboo flooring, low flow toilets, Low E windows.  They were talking about how they recycled the old house that originally occupied the site (just gave it away and it's being reused somewhere around Turley).  I think I remember someone on this site say that these townhomes weren't going to qualify for LEED certification, WRONG...this structure is going to be one of not many in the country to attain platinum status, the highest level.  The USGBC may need to come up with another rating level to assign to these homes.

The design is really impressive.  I really like the scale, window and front door placements, balcony and covers, and orientation of the homes to the neighborhood.  The curved wall provides an interesting dimension.  It has an open feeling on the inside.  They started putting some very thick cedar panels on the front Saturday and there is steel wrapping around the curved wall.  It's beginning to look very sharp.

If you haven't had a chance you should run by.
I wish others were doing townhomes like this.  I appreciate the investments Metro and others have made in the neighborhood but I really like NINE's orientation and attention to detail.  I think they are going to have another open house in two weeks or so just to give people another chance to have a look.  I am signed up to receive their emails: tulsaloftproject@sbcglobal.net

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by OurTulsa

You are certainly getting more than square footage for that price.  What's not included in the $/sq. ft. is the private court yard between your outdoor dining room and garage/studio and a roof deck with a spectacular view of downtown, Cherry St, and the Hillcrest area.  They are putting in 'accordian' doors that can essentially eliminate the wall separating the dining area at the back and the covered outdoor space which looks like it will really extend that space.  Just for those elements I would say $200/ sq. ft. is a bargain for either one of these townhomes.  You can rent out the studio above the garage to help offset the mortgage.  But just in case your not convinced yet I'll mention all the green elements.

I went to the open house this weekend.  There were somewhere around 50 - 60 folks there.  They were introducing and demonstrating all of their sustainable elements.  Some of the more memorable/ valuable elements included the green roof, water catchment system, SIP frames, on-demand water heater, geo-thermal heating/cooling system, recycled glass/paper countertops, bamboo flooring, low flow toilets, Low E windows.  They were talking about how they recycled the old house that originally occupied the site (just gave it away and it's being reused somewhere around Turley).  I think I remember someone on this site say that these townhomes weren't going to qualify for LEED certification, WRONG...this structure is going to be one of not many in the country to attain platinum status, the highest level.  The USGBC may need to come up with another rating level to assign to these homes.

The design is really impressive.  I really like the scale, window and front door placements, balcony and covers, and orientation of the homes to the neighborhood.  The curved wall provides an interesting dimension.  It has an open feeling on the inside.  They started putting some very thick cedar panels on the front Saturday and there is steel wrapping around the curved wall.  It's beginning to look very sharp.

If you haven't had a chance you should run by.
I wish others were doing townhomes like this.  I appreciate the investments Metro and others have made in the neighborhood but I really like NINE's orientation and attention to detail.  I think they are going to have another open house in two weeks or so just to give people another chance to have a look.  I am signed up to receive their emails: tulsaloftproject@sbcglobal.net

Metro Lofts suck.

[Gaspar]

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by OurTulsa

You are certainly getting more than square footage for that price.  What's not included in the $/sq. ft. is the private court yard between your outdoor dining room and garage/studio and a roof deck with a spectacular view of downtown, Cherry St, and the Hillcrest area.  They are putting in 'accordian' doors that can essentially eliminate the wall separating the dining area at the back and the covered outdoor space which looks like it will really extend that space.  Just for those elements I would say $200/ sq. ft. is a bargain for either one of these townhomes.  You can rent out the studio above the garage to help offset the mortgage.  But just in case your not convinced yet I'll mention all the green elements.

I went to the open house this weekend.  There were somewhere around 50 - 60 folks there.  They were introducing and demonstrating all of their sustainable elements.  Some of the more memorable/ valuable elements included the green roof, water catchment system, SIP frames, on-demand water heater, geo-thermal heating/cooling system, recycled glass/paper countertops, bamboo flooring, low flow toilets, Low E windows.  They were talking about how they recycled the old house that originally occupied the site (just gave it away and it's being reused somewhere around Turley).  I think I remember someone on this site say that these townhomes weren't going to qualify for LEED certification, WRONG...this structure is going to be one of not many in the country to attain platinum status, the highest level.  The USGBC may need to come up with another rating level to assign to these homes.

The design is really impressive.  I really like the scale, window and front door placements, balcony and covers, and orientation of the homes to the neighborhood.  The curved wall provides an interesting dimension.  It has an open feeling on the inside.  They started putting some very thick cedar panels on the front Saturday and there is steel wrapping around the curved wall.  It's beginning to look very sharp.

If you haven't had a chance you should run by.
I wish others were doing townhomes like this.  I appreciate the investments Metro and others have made in the neighborhood but I really like NINE's orientation and attention to detail.  I think they are going to have another open house in two weeks or so just to give people another chance to have a look.  I am signed up to receive their emails: tulsaloftproject@sbcglobal.net

Metro Lofts suck.

I agree, the Metro lofts look like they were thrown together out of surplus fencing materials.

I like NINE's design and orientation very much.  I've been through the building several times through the entire construction process.  I agree that it will make a wonderful home for someone who is passionate about beauty and good architecture.  

I don't think it will ever be an "investment" quality property.  Once the initial purchase takes place, the value will drop to what ever the market dictates in that neighborhood.  Kinda like driving a new BMW off the lot, it immediately looses 10% of it's value.

Now before anyone attacks me for saying that, you must understand my position.  The sustainable architecture materials market has hugely inflated prices because the manufacturers of those materials see a market driven by passion.  They are creating materials for the same cost, and in many cases less, than conventional materials.  The use of recycled materials, for many of these manufacturers, comes with additional financial and tax benefits too.  

It is this HUGE profit margin reaped by the manufacturers that makes the construction of a LEED certified home so expensive.  For example, synthetic reuse products like paper-resin or glass-resin countertops cost more than their conventional counterparts even though they were less expensive to manufacture.

Each of the materials used must also clear a certification process through one or several of the following organizations:

Scientific Certification Systems
Forest Stewardship Council
Green Seal
Green Guard
Carpet & Rug Institute
Building Green Inc.
Energy Star Roof program

Some of these certifications are difficult and expensive to acquire, but most are relatively cheap. . . Once the product is stamped with one of these seals, a magical thing happens to the price.  It goes up.  A lot!

So rather than just pushing builders to become more green we need to push the manufacturers to become more responsible in their pricing.  

Most homebuilders want to be more green, it's just the cost that they can't swallow the investment, and they know that for the most part, it will make their new homes harder to sell rather than more marketable.

Unfortunate for the current owners of these properties, when the price of green materials meets the market demand, and they replace less eco-friendly products, the cost of building these structures will be much less, and therefore the homes that were built for 2X to 3X the cost will be worth that much less.  

That's why I say that these are not "investment" quality properties.  They are for homeowners that are willing, and understand that they are serving as market martyrs to advance the cause of green living.  That said, they are indeed beautiful and serve as an excellent example and exhibition of green building.

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by OurTulsa

You are certainly getting more than square footage for that price.  What's not included in the $/sq. ft. is the private court yard between your outdoor dining room and garage/studio and a roof deck with a spectacular view of downtown, Cherry St, and the Hillcrest area.  They are putting in 'accordian' doors that can essentially eliminate the wall separating the dining area at the back and the covered outdoor space which looks like it will really extend that space.  Just for those elements I would say $200/ sq. ft. is a bargain for either one of these townhomes.  You can rent out the studio above the garage to help offset the mortgage.  But just in case your not convinced yet I'll mention all the green elements.

I went to the open house this weekend.  There were somewhere around 50 - 60 folks there.  They were introducing and demonstrating all of their sustainable elements.  Some of the more memorable/ valuable elements included the green roof, water catchment system, SIP frames, on-demand water heater, geo-thermal heating/cooling system, recycled glass/paper countertops, bamboo flooring, low flow toilets, Low E windows.  They were talking about how they recycled the old house that originally occupied the site (just gave it away and it's being reused somewhere around Turley).  I think I remember someone on this site say that these townhomes weren't going to qualify for LEED certification, WRONG...this structure is going to be one of not many in the country to attain platinum status, the highest level.  The USGBC may need to come up with another rating level to assign to these homes.

The design is really impressive.  I really like the scale, window and front door placements, balcony and covers, and orientation of the homes to the neighborhood.  The curved wall provides an interesting dimension.  It has an open feeling on the inside.  They started putting some very thick cedar panels on the front Saturday and there is steel wrapping around the curved wall.  It's beginning to look very sharp.

If you haven't had a chance you should run by.
I wish others were doing townhomes like this.  I appreciate the investments Metro and others have made in the neighborhood but I really like NINE's orientation and attention to detail.  I think they are going to have another open house in two weeks or so just to give people another chance to have a look.  I am signed up to receive their emails: tulsaloftproject@sbcglobal.net

Metro Lofts suck.

I agree, the Metro lofts look like they were thrown together out of surplus fencing materials.

I like NINE's design and orientation very much.  I've been through the building several times through the entire construction process.  I agree that it will make a wonderful home for someone who is passionate about beauty and good architecture.  

I don't think it will ever be an "investment" quality property.  Once the initial purchase takes place, the value will drop to what ever the market dictates in that neighborhood.  Kinda like driving a new BMW off the lot, it immediately looses 10% of it's value.

Now before anyone attacks me for saying that, you must understand my position.  The sustainable architecture materials market has hugely inflated prices because the manufacturers of those materials see a market driven by passion.  They are creating materials for the same cost, and in many cases less, than conventional materials.  The use of recycled materials, for many of these manufacturers, comes with additional financial and tax benefits too.  

It is this HUGE profit margin reaped by the manufacturers that makes the construction of a LEED certified home so expensive.  For example, synthetic reuse products like paper-resin or glass-resin countertops cost more than their conventional counterparts even though they were less expensive to manufacture.

Each of the materials used must also clear a certification process through one or several of the following organizations:

Scientific Certification Systems
Forest Stewardship Council
Green Seal
Green Guard
Carpet & Rug Institute
Building Green Inc.
Energy Star Roof program

Some of these certifications are difficult and expensive to acquire, but most are relatively cheap. . . Once the product is stamped with one of these seals, a magical thing happens to the price.  It goes up.  A lot!

So rather than just pushing builders to become more green we need to push the manufacturers to become more responsible in their pricing.  

Most homebuilders want to be more green, it's just the cost that they can't swallow the investment, and they know that for the most part, it will make their new homes harder to sell rather than more marketable.

Unfortunate for the current owners of these properties, when the price of green materials meets the market demand, and they replace less eco-friendly products, the cost of building these structures will be much less, and therefore the homes that were built for 2X to 3X the cost will be worth that much less.  

That's why I say that these are not "investment" quality properties.  They are for homeowners that are willing, and understand that they are serving as market martyrs to advance the cause of green living.  That said, they are indeed beautiful and serve as an excellent example and exhibition of green building.

You left out one small item Gaspar....
The land availability decrease, in that area, and the property value increase...

Between the two... the sustained value of this property should do quite well say ten years from now....

By then.... Metro will be showing it's condo craze construction quality and the price of one of Shelby's "Design Originals" may well be factors as well.  

[Gaspar]

quote:Originally posted by Rico

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by OurTulsa

You are certainly getting more than square footage for that price.  What's not included in the $/sq. ft. is the private court yard between your outdoor dining room and garage/studio and a roof deck with a spectacular view of downtown, Cherry St, and the Hillcrest area.  They are putting in 'accordian' doors that can essentially eliminate the wall separating the dining area at the back and the covered outdoor space which looks like it will really extend that space.  Just for those elements I would say $200/ sq. ft. is a bargain for either one of these townhomes.  You can rent out the studio above the garage to help offset the mortgage.  But just in case your not convinced yet I'll mention all the green elements.

I went to the open house this weekend.  There were somewhere around 50 - 60 folks there.  They were introducing and demonstrating all of their sustainable elements.  Some of the more memorable/ valuable elements included the green roof, water catchment system, SIP frames, on-demand water heater, geo-thermal heating/cooling system, recycled glass/paper countertops, bamboo flooring, low flow toilets, Low E windows.  They were talking about how they recycled the old house that originally occupied the site (just gave it away and it's being reused somewhere around Turley).  I think I remember someone on this site say that these townhomes weren't going to qualify for LEED certification, WRONG...this structure is going to be one of not many in the country to attain platinum status, the highest level.  The USGBC may need to come up with another rating level to assign to these homes.

The design is really impressive.  I really like the scale, window and front door placements, balcony and covers, and orientation of the homes to the neighborhood.  The curved wall provides an interesting dimension.  It has an open feeling on the inside.  They started putting some very thick cedar panels on the front Saturday and there is steel wrapping around the curved wall.  It's beginning to look very sharp.

If you haven't had a chance you should run by.
I wish others were doing townhomes like this.  I appreciate the investments Metro and others have made in the neighborhood but I really like NINE's orientation and attention to detail.  I think they are going to have another open house in two weeks or so just to give people another chance to have a look.  I am signed up to receive their emails: tulsaloftproject@sbcglobal.net

Metro Lofts suck.

I agree, the Metro lofts look like they were thrown together out of surplus fencing materials.

I like NINE's design and orientation very much.  I've been through the building several times through the entire construction process.  I agree that it will make a wonderful home for someone who is passionate about beauty and good architecture.  

I don't think it will ever be an "investment" quality property.  Once the initial purchase takes place, the value will drop to what ever the market dictates in that neighborhood.  Kinda like driving a new BMW off the lot, it immediately looses 10% of it's value.

Now before anyone attacks me for saying that, you must understand my position.  The sustainable architecture materials market has hugely inflated prices because the manufacturers of those materials see a market driven by passion.  They are creating materials for the same cost, and in many cases less, than conventional materials.  The use of recycled materials, for many of these manufacturers, comes with additional financial and tax benefits too.  

It is this HUGE profit margin reaped by the manufacturers that makes the construction of a LEED certified home so expensive.  For example, synthetic reuse products like paper-resin or glass-resin countertops cost more than their conventional counterparts even though they were less expensive to manufacture.

Each of the materials used must also clear a certification process through one or several of the following organizations:

Scientific Certification Systems
Forest Stewardship Council
Green Seal
Green Guard
Carpet & Rug Institute
Building Green Inc.
Energy Star Roof program

Some of these certifications are difficult and expensive to acquire, but most are relatively cheap. . . Once the product is stamped with one of these seals, a magical thing happens to the price.  It goes up.  A lot!

So rather than just pushing builders to become more green we need to push the manufacturers to become more responsible in their pricing.  

Most homebuilders want to be more green, it's just the cost that they can't swallow the investment, and they know that for the most part, it will make their new homes harder to sell rather than more marketable.

Unfortunate for the current owners of these properties, when the price of green materials meets the market demand, and they replace less eco-friendly products, the cost of building these structures will be much less, and therefore the homes that were built for 2X to 3X the cost will be worth that much less.  

That's why I say that these are not "investment" quality properties.  They are for homeowners that are willing, and understand that they are serving as market martyrs to advance the cause of green living.  That said, they are indeed beautiful and serve as an excellent example and exhibition of green building.

You left out one small item Gaspar....
The land availability decrease, in that area, and the property value increase...

Between the two... the sustained value of this property should do quite well say ten years from now....

By then.... Metro will be showing it's condo craze construction quality and the price of one of Shelby's "Design Originals" may well be factors as well.  

You may be right!

[mlofts]

I agree that this project is way cool.  Cannot help but read the tabloids every once and a while and usually cannot help but respond...
Shelby IS our architect FYI.  He is the architect of record for Model homes, Troost 7 plex, Troost 2 unit, 1426 Trenton Chevron house, and our newest project at 1432 Trenton.  Again the construction is not cheap by any stretch and I think that Shelby can attest that even at 200/ft sale price it would be difficult to make any money on this project.  He is doing what he needs to make a statement about the use of materials and that it is possible in Tulsa, OK to have a LEED certified project - maybe it will set the bar for builders to be able to do this in the future and actually stay in business.  I honestly hope it does but you can see from this thread people always complain about the cost of good design.  
As for the Metro Lofts suck comment - you guys can have your opinions and I respect that.  What you have to remember however is that we were simply born and raised Tulsans irritated at the lack of high density walkable neighborhoods in Tulsa and used our personal savings to do it ourselves.  No City funds, no Tax credits, not even a street lamp.  I certainly wish I had had the money to develop whatever it is that would satisfy everyone and give them away so that they didnt cost anything either...but thats not realistic.  I am proud of the fact that we started the trend and created the comps that allow LEED certified homes to have a chance in this neighborhood which by the way is MY neighborhood too.

[OurTulsa]

quote:Originally posted by mlofts

I agree that this project is way cool.  Cannot help but read the tabloids every once and a while and usually cannot help but respond...
Shelby IS our architect FYI.  He is the architect of record for Model homes, Troost 7 plex, Troost 2 unit, 1426 Trenton Chevron house, and our newest project at 1432 Trenton.  Again the construction is not cheap by any stretch and I think that Shelby can attest that even at 200/ft sale price it would be difficult to make any money on this project.  He is doing what he needs to make a statement about the use of materials and that it is possible in Tulsa, OK to have a LEED certified project - maybe it will set the bar for builders to be able to do this in the future and actually stay in business.  I honestly hope it does but you can see from this thread people always complain about the cost of good design.  
As for the Metro Lofts suck comment - you guys can have your opinions and I respect that.  What you have to remember however is that we were simply born and raised Tulsans irritated at the lack of high density walkable neighborhoods in Tulsa and used our personal savings to do it ourselves.  No City funds, no Tax credits, not even a street lamp.  I certainly wish I had had the money to develop whatever it is that would satisfy everyone and give them away so that they didnt cost anything either...but thats not realistic.  I am proud of the fact that we started the trend and created the comps that allow LEED certified homes to have a chance in this neighborhood which by the way is MY neighborhood too.

Like your design or not...I am very appreciative of the risk you and the group made in that neighborhood and are making in other inner-city neighborhoods with serious urban potential.  Without your first step I don't think you would see NINE or Cherry St. Lofts or St. Louis Lofts in there.  I personally would prefer to see development oriented to the street as opposed to turned in on a driveway however you guys are selling so who am I to argue (for that neighborhood).  I think, in the end, you guys will be credited (at least in part) with creating one of Tulsa's most vibrant neighborhoods.  Keep on keeping on.