What does Missouri know that we don't?

[Hoss]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

1) +1 on Missouri having better roads (freeways, highways, and streets)

I noted a conscious effort on their part to redo many roads in the last decade or so.  Piece by piece huge sections of road were repaved.  Part of it might be that they just decided to get the job done.

2) Also +1 on Oklahoma being hard on roads

Moisture & temperature swings are the hardest things on roads.  Oklahoma has both, in spades.  Iowa has frozen winters.  Generally, when it freezes for the winter it's frozen.  California has mild winters, the ground does not freeze.  Oklahoma... has freezing and thawing every night.

Likewise, New Mexico has no moisture.  In general, their roads are amazing.  The ground under them does not expand like a sponge and then contract.  The freezing and unfreezing can not use the water to force cracks apart.  Our mixed soil certainly doesnt help either.

3) Other states have areas that suffer our same fate, but as a whole we are in a bad geological and meteorological state for roads.  Add heavy use (we drive trucks and trucks pass through) and it gets even worse.  Just for fun, combine large rural areas and dense urban areas to contend with.  All around, we will have to pay more for roads... but it can be done.  We are not SO much worse off than everyone else and everyone else has challenges also... so we should be able to cope.

I call bull****.  Drive over to Arkansas (which is in the same climate zone as Tulsa) and the roads are better there.  Because they have a roads PLAN.  And it is at the state level, which is seriously lacking here.  OKC will screw us over any chance they can get, while moving an entire highway down in OKC.

Response from the OKC lurkers in 3...2....1....

[ARGUS]

Gaspars theory is correct.
I have heard that Tulsa has the worst climate in the WORLD for concrete longevity.
(expansion/contraction).

[Wrinkle]

quote:Originally posted by ARGUS

Gaspars theory is correct.
I have heard that Tulsa has the worst climate in the WORLD for concrete longevity.
(expansion/contraction).

OK, it's official, we've now heard everything.

[Wrinkle]

Anyone ever drove the Gulf Coast from Texas to Florida?

Every time I do, I can't help but wonder how they can build roads tens of miles long which are really nothing but continuous bridges, literally.

And, it's not just interstates, local roads do much the same.

If we had to do what these cities do for roads, it'd be far more expensive than what is required here to keep our roads maintained.

We complain about freeze/thaw decay here, but they deal with a perpetual onslought of salty seawater.

There's nothing here which represents an unusual problem, just different. In some cases more difficult, others less. It's understanding the problem and applying the correct solution.

But, doing nothing isn't it.
And special taxes to do one of the two or three most basic city functions doesn't really solve the problem either. There's something wrong about the approach.

Fix that first.

[ARGUS]

heres something else for you wrinkle (so you CAN hear everything)
The ideal environment to cure concrete is a slightly salty moist environment.
Also, in this ideal environment this curing could last up to.......ready.......wait for it............70 yrs.
Let the flaming begin.
Gaspar; please look this up when you have time to attempt to validate.

[Wrinkle]

quote:Originally posted by ARGUS

heres something else for you wrinkle (so you CAN hear everything)
The ideal environment to cure concrete is a slightly salty moist environment.
Also, in this ideal environment this curing could last up to.......ready.......wait for it............70 yrs.
Let the flaming begin.
Gaspar; please look this up when you have time to attempt to validate.

Not really trying to argue, but there is no 'ideal' environment in which to cure concrete. There is only what there is and the method of curing chosen.

Concrete cures to within 80%-98% of its' _design_ strength in 28 days, depending upon the curing method and the design mix.

While curing continues for years, and yes I've heard to as much as 70 years, the objective is to get it to _design_ strength, so it serves the purpose.

Concrete curing is a chemical process. Thus, water is the catalyst which initiates the process. It also means concrete cures if completely submerged in water, even salt water.

But, it does change the chemical reaction which require a _design_ mix and a _chosen_ curing method.

Frankly, I see no particular benefit to a salty water application, though hadn't heard of that previously, or have reason to investigate. We have no seawater here.

The fact remains, you adjusted the mix and curing method to achieve the 28-day strength and that's pretty much it.

The other consideration would be expansion control. Concrete shrinks as it cures, by about 1/16th inch per ten feet of length. Temperature affects that even more. So, planning of control joints is imperative.

If the laws of physics and materials are properly applied, there should be no problems.

[TeeDub]

While I am sure that the dramatic swings in temperature that we have in Oklahoma has an effect....

It sure doesn't help that every surrounding state has weigh stations for big trucks that remain open 24 hours....   But Oklahoma's look like they last checked vehicle weight somewhere back in the 1970s.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by TeeDub



While I am sure that the dramatic swings in temperature that we have in Oklahoma has an effect....

It sure doesn't help that every surrounding state has weigh stations for big trucks that remain open 24 hours....   But Oklahoma's look like they last checked vehicle weight somewhere back in the 1970s.

That was true in Missouri. Lots of trucks were pulled over to be weighed and checked. Fees collected probably help maintain their roads. Too heavy and you're turned away. Didn't see anything on the Oklahoma side.

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by TeeDub



While I am sure that the dramatic swings in temperature that we have in Oklahoma has an effect....

It sure doesn't help that every surrounding state has weigh stations for big trucks that remain open 24 hours....   But Oklahoma's look like they last checked vehicle weight somewhere back in the 1970s.

That was true in Missouri. Lots of trucks were pulled over to be weighed and checked. Fees collected probably help maintain their roads. Too heavy and you're turned away. Didn't see anything on the Oklahoma side.

that would just be one part of a comprehensive ROADS PLAN.