TCC Bond Issue Vote 5-13-08

[MDepr2007]

Maybe it's not "rebellion" but "common-sense" Artist

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by wavoka

We also have one of the lowest per capita incomes. It only makes sense that we would have a lower tax burden.  You can't squeeze blood from a turnip.

But they keep telling us that by having lower taxes everyone will be richer? They also keep telling us that businesses and people will flock to the state that the economy will boom. We should have the highest per capita income. If low taxes are so desirable, why arent more people moving here?


I cant see that if your poorer that your trying to "squeeze blood from a turnip". Poor people spend less, buy less and buy less expensive items, thus little of their income goes to taxes. Any difference incurred by adding or subtracting a percentage of the small amount that they already spend in taxes would even be all the more miniscule. Yet a middle or upper income person who purchases a hundred times more would pay significantly more to help with basic infrastructure, education, law enforcement, etc. A poor person buying a 5 dollar shirt pays about 45 cents in taxes, and a middle class person buying a 50 dollar shirt will pay about 4.50$. What the heck ya gonna do with an extra percentage of 45 cents? For we wouldnt be talking about that total amount, any change would be a percentage of that.

I had my years of eating Ramen Noodles, struggling, worrying that if I got a flat tire I wouldnt be able to make the rent and would lose my apartment. I actually had my car reposessed then got thrown out of a 1 bedroom efficiency because I was late one month too often lol. I spent so little that what tiny, miniscule amount of taxes I was paying was the least of my worries. And then to squabble about a percentage of even that small amount... I had more important things to worry about, like getting my self in a position where I was making more money. (Thank goodness for TCC and its cheap tax supported education! all the money I would have saved had that tax not been there would not have made up for the amount I would have to have paid to go to another college. This tax, which I agree wasnt a good one, would have amounted to less than the cost of a book at TCC for the average poor person. But by having TCC be as cheap and available as it was, I was able to get an education and get a better job and then NOT have to worry about pinching pennies anymore.) Plus I would very much like to know that I lived in a city that was thriving and growing, that had wealthy people and great jobs so that I also could hope to someday get a piece of the action. If your going to do whatever it takes to bust your butt and get up to the next level where you wont have to worry about a few dollars, then you want a city that has good infrastructure, schools, is attractive and growing, etc. Otherwise your still in the same situation, whether its a low tax state or a high tax state.

If the people in this state have some of the lowest per capita incomes, then that means they will be paying less in taxes, yet trying to support the same kind of infrastructure as other wealthier cities and states do with higher incomes and higher taxes. A double whammy for basic needs. And we arent talking about the state, we are talking about Tulsa, the place that we have already argued has a very good level of income compared to other places, AND a lower cost of living which people have argued is very much a plus for poor people here.


Those may not be the best examples. But suffice it to say, I think that too little taxes can be just as bad as too much. What the taxes are used for and how well they are used is very important. People seem to want to frame the discussion in diametric terms, yes/no, for/against,,,, or even more extreme, all taxes bad period, there are no good taxes. If we didnt have any taxes everthing would be nirvana.

The arguments by people on here are not, "Is this tax a good tax or a bad tax." or even, what could be an acceptible level in a certain situation. Its "Taxes bad, period." There is no "Why", this tax is bad, because all taxes are bad. There doesnt need to be any reason why or discussion about it. There can be no discussion, compromise, learning, difference of opinion,,,,no way to make anything better,,, Its just NO tax period.

Its "They are after our money again!" Its not   "This particular tax is not good because... "


We have one of the lowest over all tax burdens of any state. We supposedly have good wages compared to other cities. We have an extremely low cost of living on top of both of those. Surely there is some wiggle room to do some extra things which would improve our city even further. We have plenty of negatives that havent been improving and could use a bit more attention as well. No need to raise taxes just to be raising taxes of course. But if there is a way to make things better...some sort of investment for the future of the city and its people that is prudent, shown to work, fills a need, is frugally spent, that we have tried to achieve in other ways, etc. Why not go for it?

I personally used tax supported programs to pull myself up into a better place in the world, the US Army and the GI Bill, and TCC. The tiny amount I was paying in taxes wasnt even coming close, not by a loooong shot, to what I got from those things.  

[TeeDub]

I have a hard time with taxes, fees and other costs that are hidden.

When the federal government takes half my paycheck, the state takes it's cut, and them I am forced to pay 9% on everything I buy, it seems as though I am getting taxed to death.

Add into that the hidden taxes associated with gasoline, my electric/water/gas bills, my cable bills, my cellphone bills and the whole thing starts to really stink.

Wait, assume you feel like leaving Tulsa on any major highway?   Nope, not without paying tolls (taxes.)    Taxes are getting so ridiculous to the restaurant business that they are no longer including the alcohol tax in the cost of a drink.   Suddenly that $2.50 beer they were advertising is now $2.97 because they decided to pass on some more taxes that were formerly hidden.  

It isn't that I don't want to support my local community.   I just want to be able to spend a little of my own money on myself.   Apparently my local community found it more important to build an arena, dig some holes in the river, and move its offices into "a buddy's" empty building.   Maybe instead of me paying more taxes the city should learn to do what I have done...   Tighten it's belt a couple of notches and learn to live within it's own means for once.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by TeeDub


I have a hard time with taxes, fees and other costs that are hidden.

When the federal government takes half my paycheck, the state takes it's cut, and them I am forced to pay 9% on everything I buy, it seems as though I am getting taxed to death.

Add into that the hidden taxes associated with gasoline, my electric/water/gas bills, my cable bills, my cellphone bills and the whole thing starts to really stink.

Wait, assume you feel like leaving Tulsa on any major highway?   Nope, not without paying tolls (taxes.)    Taxes are getting so ridiculous to the restaurant business that they are no longer including the alcohol tax in the cost of a drink.   Suddenly that $2.50 beer they were advertising is now $2.97 because they decided to pass on some more taxes that were formerly hidden.  

It isn't that I don't want to support my local community.   I just want to be able to spend a little of my own money on myself.   Apparently my local community found it more important to build an arena, dig some holes in the river, and move its offices into "a buddy's" empty building.   Maybe instead of me paying more taxes the city should learn to do what I have done...   Tighten it's belt a couple of notches and learn to live within it's own means for once.

Here's another Maybe:

Maybe, you should understand that you are merely an EXPLOITATION Source.

Not a Citizen.

Not even really a human being.

Still feeling used?  Well, you should be.  Because you are.

Because a Somebody with control over the levers of power Needs to Feed their Greed.  

And, you're on the Menu.

[:O]

[mrhaskellok]

Artist,

I agree, having gone to TCC myself using my GI Bill to do it, there were some great opportunities that I only hope I can "pay back".

I think the logic in lower taxes lies more with the purpose of the taxes than the volume.  Even as a libertarian (so called, I hate labels), I made a motion to put on the ballot a sales tax here in Haskell BUT, and I called for every dime to be earmarked. After having town hall meetings many citizens called for more taxes once they saw the amount they could generate AND where it was going to go. The tax went from 1 cent to 1.35.  In other words, salaries didn't go up, we didn't build a new city hall either.  We used that money for Police, Fire, Civil Defense, and Parks.  That's it.   A small portion of the 1.35 went to the general fund for admin costs but was done so at the suggestion of the people.

Again, the point is, most people like you and I, don't mind paying their share.  I think the aversion is the obvious lack of attention paid to the real needs of the community.  We didn't want the new money to pay for anything but what is needed now and forever...basic infrastructure.

[mdunn]

I beleive that socks should not have to match,to lead a good life!

[YoungTulsan]

quote:Originally posted by mrhaskellok

Artist,

I agree, having gone to TCC myself using my GI Bill to do it, there were some great opportunities that I only hope I can "pay back".

I think the logic in lower taxes lies more with the purpose of the taxes than the volume.  Even as a libertarian (so called, I hate labels), I made a motion to put on the ballot a sales tax here in Haskell BUT, and I called for every dime to be earmarked. After having town hall meetings many citizens called for more taxes once they saw the amount they could generate AND where it was going to go. The tax went from 1 cent to 1.35.  In other words, salaries didn't go up, we didn't build a new city hall either.  We used that money for Police, Fire, Civil Defense, and Parks.  That's it.   A small portion of the 1.35 went to the general fund for admin costs but was done so at the suggestion of the people.

Again, the point is, most people like you and I, don't mind paying their share.  I think the aversion is the obvious lack of attention paid to the real needs of the community.  We didn't want the new money to pay for anything but what is needed now and forever...basic infrastructure.

I fall into the "libertarian" label as well, but I am more against strong centralized government function on too-high a level.  I can be somewhat liberal on a local level.  Government does have a function, and it is BEST ran on as local a level as possible.  So I would probably have felt the same way in a town like Haskell.

On the education theme though, I am more than willing to support pro-education proposals, even if they mean tax increases, as long as they MAKE SENSE.  There are many of us that would like to see a 4 year college in Tulsa, such as OU located downtown (the things that it would do for livening up Downtown, just to start, which have been talked about on here extensively) - That would be a great idea to encourage with tax stimulus.  TCC is what it is.  I don't want it shut down, but why agressively expand it (and its suburban-sprawl-minded construction practices) at the expense of pushing a REAL good idea like OU Tulsa further and further from becoming a reality?