Street financing Town Hall meetings

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by bacjz00

That sticker has been getting spread around by e-mail all over the city. I dunno who is responsible but really it's not accurate IMO...

It oughta read

Tulsa.

Support something.  Anything.

I'll do something like that... I support a real audit of the Public Works Department.

I support a real "Fix the Streets" package that doesn't get spent on the widening of streets.

Such a thing is not street repair... it is street construction.

You want to "support something. Anything" flip the line to the people that do not question.

a hint....TyPro's

By the way Welcome to Tulsa Now

[TURobY]

quote:Originally posted by Rico

You want to "support something. Anything" flip the line to the people that do not question.

a hint....TyPro's

/me rolls his eyes as hard as he can...

[Rico]

Tomorrow evening at 6:30.... anyone and everyone will have a chance to see, hear, and question the "Streets" package.

This "Town Hall" will be the "Citywide version"..

The meeting is being held at the City Council meeting room at the Francis Campbell building.
5th and Denver.

We will see just how this one plays out.

Friendly Bear.... I know you are out there.. You need to give them a "dose of tax based logic..?

[PonderInc]

quote:Originally posted by Red Arrow

I did attend the "What About Rail" presentation. I liked it except for the attempted extortion to park my car. (No other way to get there, yet.)

Parking was free in the garage next to the Depot for the "What About Rail" event.  They left one exit completely open(the "arm thingy" was up!), so that people could park for free and attend the event.  If you tried to go out the wrong exit, all you had to do was tell the attendent that you were at the rail event, and they would have directed you to the free exit.

I don't see any extortion there.  There's also always plenty of free on-street parking in the evenings downtown.

Certainly, in the future, I hope you'll be able to make it downtown using affordadble, fast and efficient transit.  But downtown denizens are the furthest thing from "clannish."  In fact, I would say that they are among the most welcoming and open-minded folks in town.  (Downtown regulars may have the advantage of being more comfortable with the one-way streets and structured parking options.  Hopefully, better signage in the future will make these things more "user-friendly" to those who are not intimately familiar with downtown.)

[Red Arrow]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

quote:Originally posted by Red Arrow

I did attend the "What About Rail" presentation. I liked it except for the attempted extortion to park my car. (No other way to get there, yet.)

Parking was free in the garage next to the Depot for the "What About Rail" event.  They left one exit completely open(the "arm thingy" was up!), so that people could park for free and attend the event.  If you tried to go out the wrong exit, all you had to do was tell the attendent that you were at the rail event, and they would have directed you to the free exit.

I don't see any extortion there.  There's also always plenty of free on-street parking in the evenings downtown.

Certainly, in the future, I hope you'll be able to make it downtown using affordadble, fast and efficient transit.  But downtown denizens are the furthest thing from "clannish."  In fact, I would say that they are among the most welcoming and open-minded folks in town.  (Downtown regulars may have the advantage of being more comfortable with the one-way streets and structured parking options.  Hopefully, better signage in the future will make these things more "user-friendly" to those who are not intimately familiar with downtown.)

As I remember, the garage across from the main entrance had a big sign that said "monthly parking only" or words to the effect that I shouldn't park there.  Maybe I missed a sign. An open gate is not necessarily an invitation to free parking if you are not a regular. The map for the event showed several surface lots.  I thought that after hours maybe $2 should be fair but the time cutoff for the parking fee looked like I would have to pay $5 for just a couple of hours. I don't rememeber the exact numbers. That was beyond my threshold of interest.  I did find a spot on the street a block or two away so I parked there.

One way streets don't bother me. We lived on one in suburban Philadelphia, PA when I was a kid. Just go around the block if you need to.  Of course, $4.00/gal gas makes that less attractive.

From an outsider's point of view, downtown is kind of like a store.  Business from the suburbanites like me will come when there is a specific product I want at a price and convenience level I am willing to pay.

[PonderInc]

Sorry for throwing us off on a tangent...Back to the Streets package...

I went to the public meeting on Monday night.  They make a pretty good case for the streets package...especially when you see the comparisons between what we spent on the streets in the 80's vs. today.  (Today, we spend half as much/year--not adjusted for inflation--and have twice as many lane miles!)  

I absolutely believe that street widening needs to be funded SEPARATELY from repair and maintenance. (They didn't really talk about widening in the presentation.) Tulsa used to have special assessments to help pay for street widening (until the late 60's, I think) and it's too bad we got away from that method.  

If your house needs a new roof, and you have a limited budget, you don't spend your money expanding the kitchen!  You take care of the basic structural needs of the house first.  It's ridiculous to suggest that widening roads in the far reaches of the city is as important as fixing what we have.

[Red Arrow]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

Sorry for throwing us off on a tangent...Back to the Streets package...

I went to the public meeting on Monday night.  They make a pretty good case for the streets package...especially when you see the comparisons between what we spent on the streets in the 80's vs. today.  (Today, we spend half as much/year--not adjusted for inflation--and have twice as many lane miles!)  

I absolutely believe that street widening needs to be funded SEPARATELY from repair and maintenance. (They didn't really talk about widening in the presentation.) Tulsa used to have special assessments to help pay for street widening (until the late 60's, I think) and it's too bad we got away from that method.  

If your house needs a new roof, and you have a limited budget, you don't spend your money expanding the kitchen!  You take care of the basic structural needs of the house first.  It's ridiculous to suggest that widening roads in the far reaches of the city is as important as fixing what we have.

There is no question that the roads need fixing in some areas of Tulsa. The question is who pays and how much. The prevalant attitude among the vocal group in this forum is that all of Tulsa pays for the repairs but only the direct beneficiaries of road widening should pay for that. Politics being what they are, the best way to get everyone to pay for road repairs (that they may never drive over) is to allow for some road improvements that others may never drive over.  I expect INCOG has some real numbers on the percentage of people that live in the city limits and immediate suburbs that never drive over the worst roads to work downtown. It would be interesting to see them. Just to play the devil's advocate, how about a special assessment for road repairs?  I originally thought the repairs and improvements were separate issues too.  Then I realized that support for one would not result in support for the other.

I think Gaspar and Waterboy have the right attitude.  Hold your breath and let's help each other.

[TheArtist]

My main concern is that they want the money,,, ok WE want the streets fixed, BUT they arent putting in a process to fix them the way we want them fixed.


Its the vote that gives us the power to have influence on how the money is to be spent. When I hear about widening streets in South Tulsa yet not a peep about half mile streets, One must be very concerned that if we do vote at this time to give them the money to "fix" the streets,,, will they do it right?

I also dont hear anything about pedestrian friendly and bike friendly streets, its all about cars, there is no fairness and balance. What about mass transit and how that fits into the streets issue?

If they are not considering those issues now, havent in the past,,, when will they? Its the power of the vote that gives us some leverage. Otherwise its going to be same ol same ol. If what they are arguing about now any indication of what their mindsets are on the issues, that gives me absolutely NO comfort that they are going to do the right thing with our money after we give it to them.

Yes we want the streets fixed, but no I do not want to give them a blank check.  

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

My main concern is that they want the money,,, ok WE want the streets fixed, BUT they arent putting in a process to fix them the way we want them fixed.


Its the vote that gives us the power to have influence on how the money is to be spent. When I hear about widening streets in South Tulsa yet not a peep about half mile streets, One must be very concerned that if we do vote at this time to give them the money to "fix" the streets,,, will they do it right?

I also dont hear anything about pedestrian friendly and bike friendly streets, its all about cars, there is no fairness and balance. What about mass transit and how that fits into the streets issue?

If they are not considering those issues now, havent in the past,,, when will they? Its the power of the vote that gives us some leverage. Otherwise its going to be same ol same ol. If what they are arguing about now any indication of what their mindsets are on the issues, that gives me absolutely NO comfort that they are going to do the right thing with our money after we give it to them.

Yes we want the streets fixed, but no I do not want to give them a blank check.  

I am sure you are making your wishes known to the decisionmakers. That is about all you can do now. There are so many disparate opinions on how the money should be spent and whose interests are to be met, that I cannot envision what process in such a short period of time would give a fair shake to them all. You could push for a later date for a vote to coincide with the general election to analyze those interests. But a negative vote accomplishes none of them.

Now is the time that you put faith in the people you elected. Make note why you elected them and remember the next time you have to choose. Like Gassman said, "give them the rope to either climb out of the pit or up the gallows".

Until we finally utilize the internet to accurately poll local Tulsans for what they want from their officials using something similar to our forum voting, we will only be getting the opinions and influence of those loudest voices who have the ear of our councilors and mayor.

[PonderInc]

Looks like the widening is going to be included--to the tune of a $120 Million investment in sprawl--business as usual.  Sprawl til you crawl, Tulsa...
TW Article 6-13-08
The TW article lists 5 of the 8 areas that will be widened.  For our $120 Million, so far, they've identified 5 miles of streets. If each of the 8 widening projects is 1 mile long, that will be 8 miles of street widening for $120.  Or $15 Million per mile.  (Not counting the millions that have already been spent to build and maintain those roads in the past.)

Please don't tell me that we can't afford rail transit.  With rail, once you've got the lines, all you ever add are more cars to the train.  Cost to expand is minimal.

"To a hammer, every problem looks like a nail."  Ask Public Works for a streets solution, and you get big, wide streets.  Ask an urban planner for a streets solution, and you get streets that accomodate alternative transit, pedestrians, cyclists, AND cars.

Anybody down in District 8 noticing the price at the pump?  Enjoy those big, wide streets...while you still can!

[blindnil]

The World story specifically says there would be only five widening projects, four of which are in Christiansen's District 8.

[waterboy]

I am reminded of a denizen of New York in the 1920's who was asked about graft and its effect on the boroughs. He said there was both "good" graft and "bad" graft. Good graft is when your borough head (councilor) takes your campaign contribution and promises to get you a new sidewalk in front of your store if he is elected and you get the sidewalk. Bad graft is when he promises it but never comes through.