WTC Reconstruction the greatest fiasco

[cannon_fodder]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121504406342724861.html?mod=todays_us_opinion

Politics is more important than getting anything actually done. Leaders feel making sure everyone feels "heard" is more important that making the decisive and correct decision.  We can't rebuild a sky scrapper - let alone find a health care solution, keep social security solvent, or balance a budget.

quote:
It is arguably the greatest political and bureaucratic fiasco in the history of the world. Remember the line about how if we don't rebuild the towers "the terrorists will win"? The terrorists will be dead of old age before this project is finished.

The WTC site remains a hole in the ground as 19 government agencies each have independent decision making authority.  Add the input of non-governmental groups, financial interests, insurance companies, and the public.  The fully private WTC 7 had the insurance settled, the plan design, funded and constructed in order to open it in 2006.

I'm sure we will create another level of bureaucracy to fix the sub-levels... thus adding to the problem.  The typical response to dysfunctional government is, for some reason, more government.

[Hometown]

I remember a study that was released while I was living in New York that said the involvement of the Mob in New York's construction business increased the cost of doing business significantly but at the same time it brought uniformity, predictability and stability to the industry.  The message was that Mob involvement wasn't such a bad thing for the bottom line.  One thing about New York, the money comes in gobs and goes out the same way.  Everyone wants to have their palm greased.  (Kind of like Tulsa's Good Old Boy and Girl Club, only there everyone participates.)

But New York can get it done, billions of dollars later, in way that will make us all go wow!

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

I remember a study that was released while I was living in New York that said the involvement of the Mob in New York's construction business increased the cost of doing business significantly but at the same time it brought uniformity, predictability and stability to the industry.  The message was that Mob involvement wasn't such a bad thing for the bottom line.  One thing about New York, the money comes in gobs and goes out the same way.  Everyone wants to have their palm greased.  (Kind of like Tulsa's Good Old Boy and Girl Club, only there everyone participates.)

But New York can get it done, billions of dollars later, in way that will make us all go wow!

The reason the government went after the Mob in New York is they were tired of the competition. [}:)]

[altruismsuffers]

NEW YORK CITY - Strictly confidential building plans for the main tower of the new World Trade Center were found carelessly discarded in a New York City trash can on Thursday, the New York Post reported.
Blueprints For New World Trade Center Tower Found In Trash Can

[sgrizzle]

Per the article, construction started two years ago...

Two years worth of construction in New York:


Two years worth of construction in Tulsa:

[pmcalk]

I find this article offensive on so many different levels.  First, it fails to even recognize that there is so much more than simply building a building here.  How could someone be so dismissive of what is the graveyard of so many hundreds of people--loved ones, fathers, sisters, brothers, who burned or jumped or violently met their death that day?  Yes, some people said we have to rebuild the tower, but many more were adamant against rebuilding, that the grounds were hallowed, and should be preserved that way.  Of course, ultimately capitalism won out, and a building is being constructed.

To compare this undertaking to Tulsa's arena is silly.  This will be the tallest building in America.  Massive excavation is required, which must take into account the PATH train system and subways.  All of this in the middle of Manhattan.

Obviously, there are many interests in the construction of this project, and the fact that it is owned by Port Authority, which is a New Jersey entity, makes it more difficult.  But to argue that the delay is based upon people chosing "politics that just wants to have fun" ignores the complexity of the place.  Sure, we could have had a private business that completely ignored the thousands of grieving families, and simply built what they could get the most money for.  Now wouldn't that be a great testament to our country?

[cannon_fodder]

pmcalk:

So what?

People died there.  I understand that, but what does that have to do with bureaucracy delaying construction?  The issues are not related to the monument nor the deceased.  It is jurisdictional issues, approval processes, and who gets to decide what (often 3 or 4 entities have decision making authority with no over ride).

There was a debate on rebuilding, and for capitalistic, patriotic, and for those that died the decision was made to rebuild (majority were in favor of rebuilding, contrary to what you suggest).  That debate was put to rest within 6 months.  In the end, very few people wanted to leave a smoking hole in the middle of NYC to remind us over and over that a few radicals can destroy so much.  

The cleanup went quickly - which was hampered by the deceased.  The design phase was fairly quick.  The construction phase is where we are stalled.

So while I understand that they are constructing a monument as well as office space, I still fail to see why after 7 years there is very little progress.  How is that an excuse?  The delays and sheer amount of bureaucracy involved are rarely associated with the tragedy.  

And this is not a case of not understanding the scope of the project.  They are nearly 50% behind their own estimates.  I'm not the one making goals - they are.  I'm not the one who has said the bureaucracy is drowning the project, they are.

Basically what the article is saying, which I agree with, is that even on a project that is supposed to be an example of America's resolve and ability to over come... we fight and bicker about it to such an extent that we can't get anything done.    If you hold this out as an example of how government should work, then I am right to live in fear of a working strong government.  

I just don't see how this in anyway is beneficial to the victims or their families, the financial stake holders, the citizens of New York, or anything else for that matter.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

I find this article offensive on so many different levels.  First, it fails to even recognize that there is so much more than simply building a building here.  How could someone be so dismissive of what is the graveyard of so many hundreds of people--loved ones, fathers, sisters, brothers, who burned or jumped or violently met their death that day?  Yes, some people said we have to rebuild the tower, but many more were adamant against rebuilding, that the grounds were hallowed, and should be preserved that way.  Of course, ultimately capitalism won out, and a building is being constructed.

To compare this undertaking to Tulsa's arena is silly.  This will be the tallest building in America.  Massive excavation is required, which must take into account the PATH train system and subways.  All of this in the middle of Manhattan.

Obviously, there are many interests in the construction of this project, and the fact that it is owned by Port Authority, which is a New Jersey entity, makes it more difficult.  But to argue that the delay is based upon people chosing "politics that just wants to have fun" ignores the complexity of the place.  Sure, we could have had a private business that completely ignored the thousands of grieving families, and simply built what they could get the most money for.  Now wouldn't that be a great testament to our country?

The majority of the work you describe was done BEFORE "construction started two years ago."

It's a "duh" statement it will take longer than the BOK Center but in two years work on a site that was already excavated and shored up and the plans completes all they have done is a little peering and foundation work.

[cannon_fodder]

Burj Dubai will be 141 stories and the tallest structure in the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burj_Dubai

They broke ground in September of 2004 (well after WTC entered the construction phase) and will be done late this year or early 2009.  The WTC towers took 4 hours to complete the first time.  I'd have to say with some confidence that the size and scope of the project is not the issue.

I understand the desire to proceed with caution to make sure we get this right.  But the big decision have been made, the public input is over, construction has begun.  So the politics should be out of the equation.

/sorry to rant before

[pmcalk]

The truth is that the final design for the tower (just one component) was not finalized until 2005.  Massive excavation was initially required which began in 2006.  Yes, they are behind, but it is mainly because the original predictions were ridiculous.  It's easy to blame on "government bureaucracy."  But in fact what they are building there is the equivalent of a small city.  In addition to FIVE skyscrapers (each designed by a different architect with a total of 10 million square feet of office space), they are building a new transportation hub that must coordinate with existing trains, a memorial & museum, a performing arts center, and a retail area.  To think they could have done that by 2011 was completely unrealistic.  When you say this is the result of government bureaucracy, you imply that government employees are sitting around arguing, doing nothing.  This was a project by its very nature had to include multiple people, both private and public, and was going to involve a tremendous amount of coordination.  It simply isn't the same as one company building a single building.  

As the saying goes, Rome was not built in a day.

[pmcalk]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

I find this article offensive on so many different levels.  First, it fails to even recognize that there is so much more than simply building a building here.  How could someone be so dismissive of what is the graveyard of so many hundreds of people--loved ones, fathers, sisters, brothers, who burned or jumped or violently met their death that day?  Yes, some people said we have to rebuild the tower, but many more were adamant against rebuilding, that the grounds were hallowed, and should be preserved that way.  Of course, ultimately capitalism won out, and a building is being constructed.

To compare this undertaking to Tulsa's arena is silly.  This will be the tallest building in America.  Massive excavation is required, which must take into account the PATH train system and subways.  All of this in the middle of Manhattan.

Obviously, there are many interests in the construction of this project, and the fact that it is owned by Port Authority, which is a New Jersey entity, makes it more difficult.  But to argue that the delay is based upon people chosing "politics that just wants to have fun" ignores the complexity of the place.  Sure, we could have had a private business that completely ignored the thousands of grieving families, and simply built what they could get the most money for.  Now wouldn't that be a great testament to our country?

The majority of the work you describe was done BEFORE "construction started two years ago."

It's a "duh" statement it will take longer than the BOK Center but in two years work on a site that was already excavated and shored up and the plans completes all they have done is a little peering and foundation work.

That's not true.  They had to spend the first months excavating before construction even began in 2006.  Construction on most of the projects began just three years ago, and once began, issues immediately came up.  According to the director of Port Authority:

quote:
Ward listed 15 issues affecting the rebuilding, which he said didn't become clear until full-scale construction began on most projects over the past three years.

A transit hub, featuring a winged dome designed by Spanish architect Santiago Calatrava, presents some of the greatest rebuilding obstacles because it affects office towers, the memorial and space for an arts center that surrounds it. Once budgeted at $2.2 billion, estimates have soared as high as $3.4 billion.

Having just visited the sight a couple of weeks ago, I can tell you that the "little peering and foundation work" is itself a massive undertaking. The whole that they have dug is the size of multiple football fields.

[cannon_fodder]

Ahh, found it.  I'm not implying that the workers are sitting around doing nothing.  I'm implying that their bosses are more worried about protecting/expanding their fiefdoms than getting anything done.  Something I stand by on many levels of government.

I appreciate the scope of the project, and again point out that it took 4 years the first time to build the towers.  It is a massive and complex undertaking, but not one without precedent.  The largest construction project in ancient Rome was the Coliseum, which took 8 years from planning to opening.  We're already going to miss that mark using the end of cleanup in 2003 as the start date.  []

I understand your perspective, perhaps the blame is on the bureaucrat who set the timetable instead of the ones handling the project. []

[pmcalk]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Ahh, found it.  I'm not implying that the workers are sitting around doing nothing.  I'm implying that their bosses are more worried about protecting/expanding their fiefdoms than getting anything done.  Something I stand by on many levels of government.

I appreciate the scope of the project, and again point out that it took 4 years the first time to build the towers.  It is a massive and complex undertaking, but not one without precedent.  The largest construction project in ancient Rome was the Coliseum, which took 8 years from planning to opening.  We're already going to miss that mark using the end of cleanup in 2003 as the start date.  []

I understand your perspective, perhaps the blame is on the bureaucrat who set the timetable instead of the ones handling the project. []

I'll admit that huge mistakes were made in estimating it could be built in such a short amount of time.  I am perfectly willing to blame Pataki for the whole mess.  []

While I'll admit to the unrealistic time frame, I simply don't see how you could have expected it to go any faster.  I don't think it is fair to look at 2003 as the start date, since they hadn't even agreed upon a design.  Parts of Rome might have been built faster, but then it always helps to have slaves.[]

As for the first WTC, I believe your timeline is incorrect.  The original concept for WTC was created in 1961, and in 1966, five years later, construction began.  While much was built in four years, the first tower was not complete until 1972.  Tower 2 was complete in 1973.  Dedication was in 1973.  (Source)(Source)  So from conception to completion, it took almost 12 years.  And apparently, even after that amount of time, they didn't build it to withstand terroist attacks.  Probably last time will be faster than this time around, but they did have the benefit of only one architecture.  And it really just wasn't the same situation.  

I am sorry if I sound a bit defensive.  To me, building this new structure is no different than if we were to build on Pearl Harbor.  I understand that it must be done, but it must be done right.  It is something that needs to reflect our entire country, not just an investor or two.  So if takes a little longer, if a few different groups fight about how it should look, if they go back to the drawing board to make sure it can't be blown up again, I have not problem whatsoever with that.  To me, it doesn't represent what is the worst in our goverment, but instead represents the reality of our society--one that must take into account lots of different opinions, where listening to people is more important than getting something done quickly.