At what point does this city start taking cyclist safety seriously?

[dbacksfan 2.0]

For the cyclist here, this is one of the popular routes in North Scottsdale. When they start out going north, by the time they get to Pima and Dynamite, they have climbed almost 1000 over 7 miles. It doesn't look like it but it is.

https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=N+Greenway+Hayden+Loop&daddr=N+Pima+Rd+to:E+Rio+Verde+Dr+to:N+Fountain+Hills+Blvd+to:E+Shea+Blvd+to:N+Greenway+Hayden+Loop&hl=en&ll=33.678926,-111.818161&spn=0.200846,0.41851&sll=33.633988,-111.887169&sspn=0.050238,0.104628&geocode=FaYyAQId92lU-Q%3BFYPZAgIdIK1U-Q%3BFeHaAgIdSQRY-Q%3BFeVrAAIdLflW-Q%3BFb5tAAIdOYpV-Q%3BFeYxAQId3mhU-Q&t=h&mra=mi&mrsp=5&sz=14&z=12

[Red Arrow]

Sales tax is collected on those bikes and parts just like they are on any other vehicle, assuming they are purchased in state.  If you put an annual tag fee on a bicycle, it becomes a disincentive for people to commute by bike or to ride recreationally which seems counter-intuitive to what communities are doing to try and reduce emissions and congestion, as well as helping maintain a healthier population.  How do you enforce current tags on thousands more vehicles?  There seems to be some sort of misconception that adults who ride bikes are doing so at the cost of other taxpayers as if we contribute nothing to the tax base.  I'm a taxpayer, I purchase tags on five motor vehicles every year. I pay sales tax on every bike component I purchase and use in state or pay a use tax on those pieces bought outside the state.

Aw gee, you're breaking my heart.  Do you remember the term "red herring"?

How much of a fee would it take to keep you off your bicycle or to only have one bicycle?  How are car tags enforced?  I expect mostly when Mr. LEO sees one out of date or missing.  I got stopped once in San Antonio, TX with a trailer because the trailer, which is not required to have a tag in OK, didn't have a tag.  I showed my insurance papers etc and he let me go on my way but I was still stopped.  I see a LOT of "new" cars with paper tags well over the month allowed.  I should get a break on my car tags because I file single no dependents and take the standard deduction on my Federal and State income tax.  I have contributed enough already.  All you guys taking a mortgage deduction etc need to step up and stop making me pay your way.

The sum total of adding a motorcycle endorsement to my driver's license was a brief written exam as I recall. I pay nothing extra for that endorsement at renewal time and honestly don't recall what questions were on that test.  What I do rely on is years of riding experience and how to handle certain situations and make myself more visible to the rest of traffic.  If anything, motorists should have more questions regarding rules of the road and cyclists when they get their license as this would cover two things: Drivers would understand what rights cyclists have and what their responsibilities are in regards to them, and motorists who cycle would understand the same when they are on a bicycle.

When did you get your motorcycle endorsement?  Is it the same now.  If it is, the requirements should be changed to have the candidate show that they can actually ride a motorcycle.  I'm sure I could read and pass a written test to get that endorsement but I have NO business on anything bigger than a Honda 90.  One of my co-workers used to teach motorcycle safety.  He told me a few things I never would have guessed on my own being a non-motorcycle guy.

I did take a bicycle safety training course when I was in elementary school. I don't recall who sponsored the program, possibly AAA.  They set it up in the parking lot at Utica Square and it was useful at the time.  I believe it was marketed to schools to target children who were commuting to school by bicycle, which was a common thing in the 1970's when I was in elementary school. I also recall a city licensing requirement for bicycles at that time which was a $1 or $2 fee for a permanent sticker that went on your seat downtube.  The stickers were just about impossible to remove, it was designed as a theft deterrent, IIRC.

I believe that was the main goal of the bicycle licensing of the township where I grew up.  They also applied it to adults, I presume, just to be fair.

The complaint that cyclists should have to tag their bike, carry insurance, and have a special license always seems to come from people who are put off by having to slow down for 30 seconds to a minute to slow down and safely pass a cyclist with a minimum of three feet of clearance.  Even if cyclists tagged their bike, carried an insurance policy, and had a special license, motorists would still be pissed off for the occasional 30 second to one minute inconvenience.

More red herrings.  True, a bicyclist is not likely to cause much physical damage as compared to a 4000 lb motor vehicle.  What about a wreck caused by a bicyclist that trashes a few cars.  If I have to make a decision between killing a bicyclist or messing up a few cars, I'll mess up a few cars.  Maybe I should change that philosophy. What about the motorist that killed my young neighbor back in 71ish?  I didn't see the car but I assume it at least had a few dents.  What about the vision of killing someone on a bicycle?  

FWIW, I'm a licensed motorist.  Others are covered from my negligence on my bike by my homeowners liability, I'm covered from uninsured motorists from the UIM on my auto policy, and my bikes are protected from theft, etc. by my homeowners policy.  I play by the same rules everyone else in a vehicle plays by.

Are apartment dwellers required to carry "homeowner's" insurance.  I doubt it.  So maybe you are covered but what about the apartment dwellers we are trying to attract?  FYI, I've been told by my insurance agent that uninsured motorist insurance only covers medical. What does Mrs. C say?

I'm an advocate for better education for those who cycle.  I also advocate better education for all motorists as it relates to all rules of the road, not just when there's a cyclist on the roadway.  There are certainly riders in my community who either don't have a clue or don't care about their responsibilities as cyclists.  It should come as no surprise that some of those people are also shitty motorists when they are in their car or on their motorcycle.

We agree here.

What would raising my costs and nuisance factor of remembering tag dates for 10-12 bicycles which may or may not be ridden on public roads do to improve my relationship with motorists who are simply annoyed I'm on my bike on a public roadway in the first place?

Probably nothing at all.  There are really two issues, testing and licensing drivers and taxing and licensing bicycles.  I am definitely in favor of training, testing, and licensing riders.  That includes kiddies. One of the things that really scares me as a motor vehicle driver is to see a kid on a bicycle riding erratically in front of me.  I also don't like to see any bicycle rider hugging the shoulder, especially with a crappy road surface.  I really don't want to spend the rest of my life with the vision of a rider falling in front of me with nowhere for me to go.  When I legitimately pass that rider, I don't want to do it all over again because he/she rode up the shoulder at a 4-way stop to get in front of me again.  The other issue is taxing a vehicle used on public roads with all the same (and actually a few more regarding obstructing traffic) rights that I have as a motorist.  Most of the fee for a car tag in OK does not go to roads. Road maintenance is not a legitimate issue regarding vehicle licensing fees.  Stop shirking your responsibility to society.  Pay up.

Motor Vehicle: 
Revenue Apportionment for Vehicles, Boats and Outboard Motor

36.20%  To the Various School Districts
29.84%  To the General Revenue Fund
15.00%  To the County Improvements for Roads and Bridges
7.24%    To the County Highway Maintenance and Construction Fund
3.62%    To the Emergency County Road Fund for County Fund
3.10%    To the Various Cities and Incorporated Towns
2.59%    To the County Road Fund for County Fund
1.24%    To the Oklahoma Law Enforcement Retirement Fund
0.83%    To the Counties for the Support of County Government
0.31%    To the State Transportation Fund
0.03%    To the Wildlife Conservation Fund

http://www.tax.ok.gov/mv8.html

Not picking on you, Red, but your post brought up some issues I see repeated in the comments section of the Tulsa World when there's been a notable cycling accident or comments on Facebook when there were problems with a few asshat motorists and cyclists out near Sand Springs this last summer.

I am not picking on you either.  I really see many of the arguments as tired reasons to avoid training that would benefit everyone.  Tags on bicycles is probably a wash financially but I pay at least some state tax on every vehicle I own that uses public facilities.  Why shouldn't everyone else?

One more "thing".  My tax dollars have gone towards building and maintaining the bicycle trails around here.  I should be able to drive my car on those trails since my tax dollars have supported them.

[Red Arrow]

You got that right, the Governess recently doubled the price of ID cards and replacement licenses, and bumped the cost of a renewal up another $13 to fund various DPS "needs."

$21.50+!3.00 = $34.50 for 4 years.  
$.0236/day  

Welcome to inflation.  Several posters here have said inflation is good for the economy.  Enjoy.

Don't buy a few bags of chips, candy, or fast food.  Your arteries and veins will thank you.

[sauerkraut]

Well, she had to do something to cover that income tax cut.

Oklahoma needs to get rid of a state income tax all together like Texas, and that is a goal of Mary Fallin.

[Hoss]

Oklahoma need to get rid of a state income tax all together like Texas, and that is a goal of Mary Fallin.

In the meantime, enjoy your low property taxes, because that will be the first to go up by a factor of two if state income tax is eliminated.  You wonder why property taxes were so high in Texas?  No state income tax.

You pay for it one way or another.

Unless your Mary Faillin's personal OHP trooper-guard.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Oklahoma need to get rid of a state income tax all together like Texas, and that is a goal of Mary Fallin.

You really should go try out Texas for a while - some reality therapy would be good for you.  Here, you are writing a check every month for about $75 - maybe a little less - if you own a house two blocks from the Admiral Twin.  That would be a house of maybe $70,000 to 80,000 value, with homestead exemption.  And if you made under $55,000 one year after turning 65, you get a lifetime freeze so your property tax value never goes up again (might go up a little if millage rate goes up).  If renting it, you are still paying that amount, just buried in the rent.  

Same house - same rent in Texas - about $300 a month property tax.  

Compare to the income tax you pay... is it more than about $3000 a year?  I bet not.  (That means a very decent income - you could afford a more expensive house if you wanted!)

But if you move out south, say near 91st and Garnett (near where a friend used to live), you will pay $200 a month here for property tax.  In Texas, similar size house and value - over $600 a month.  Ya gotta make a whole lot of money in Oklahoma to pay about $4,500 income tax.  

You really should look at reality once in a while - it might be a refreshing change for you.   Sometimes I wonder if you watch those extreme preppers on NatGeo...?  Or maybe are one.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Oklahoma need to get rid of a state income tax all together like Texas, and that is a goal of Mary Fallin.

You know, I'm thoroughly convinced, that if I took your brain, and shoved it up a gnats a$$, it would look like a BB in a boxcar.

[sauerkraut]

In the meantime, enjoy your low property taxes, because that will be the first to go up by a factor of two if state income tax is eliminated.  You wonder why property taxes were so high in Texas?  No state income tax.

You pay for it one way or another.

Unless your Mary Faillin's personal OHP trooper-guard.

How can I be Mary Fallin's Personal  OHP-guard if I live in Omaha, Nebraska like you believe? In Fact, I'm just a regular lunch box Joe Blow who likes the strong economy we have in Oklahoma, and the things Mary Fallin does that  grow our state...  Am I they only person who remembers how bad things were before Mary Fallin became governor? Think back to Brad Henry, Oklahoma was a mess the economy was in shambles. Mary Fallin reversed that. Talk about Doom & Gloom look at the Brad Henry era we had jobs fleeing and unemployment was sky high.

[Rookie Okie]

How can I be Mary Fallin's Personal  OHP-guard if I live in Omaha, Nebraska like you believe? In Fact, I'm just a regular lunch box Joe Blow who likes the strong economy we have in Oklahoma, and the things Mary Fallin does that  grow our state...  Am I they only person who remembers how bad things were before Mary Fallin became governor? Think back to Brad Henry, Oklahoma was a mess the economy was in shambles. Mary Fallin reversed that. Talk about Doom & Gloom look at the Brad Henry era we had jobs fleeing and unemployment was sky high.

I don't know what Gov Fallin can take credit for as far as job creation.  But I do know that she is seriously shortchanging the education of children in Oklahoma by the recent ranking of 44th in per pupil spending at just under $9.1K/ student vs. the national average of $11.9K/ per student (and downgraded from a D+ to a D rating in spending this year compared to other states).  If this level of support and attitude towards education continues in the state, then we won't even have a workforce capable of performing those warehouse jobs that you credited her with landing. 

Be mindful that a state, city, or region's commitment or lack thereof to education is vital to attracting good jobs.  Oklahoma or any other state will not fair well in the long run without a competitive educational system.  Companies do not want want to set up in an area where there is an inadequately skilled workforce (not currently the case in Tulsa), and perhaps more importantly people do not want to relocate for jobs to areas where education is not a high priority.

[Conan71]

How can I be Mary Fallin's Personal  OHP-guard if I live in Omaha, Nebraska like you believe? In Fact, I'm just a regular lunch box Joe Blow who likes the strong economy we have in Oklahoma, and the things Mary Fallin does that  grow our state...  Am I they only person who remembers how bad things were before Mary Fallin became governor? Think back to Brad Henry, Oklahoma was a mess the economy was in shambles. Mary Fallin reversed that. Talk about Doom & Gloom look at the Brad Henry era we had jobs fleeing and unemployment was sky high.

The employment picture at the tail end of Brad Henry's tenure was a direct result of the national economy, it had nothing to do with any of his policies.  In fact, he was re-elected with a 66% margin in 2006 which means he would have to have carried a lot of conservatives to earn re-election.  If he were a sorry governor, he would have struggled in that re-election and we would have had jobless issues well ahead of the end of his first term.  As I recall, we actually gained jobs early in his first term as Oklahoma shook off the after-effects of the recession of 2001.  He would be considered a Republican by just about anyone's yard stick outside of Oklahoma.  He's probably right about a John McCain on the Conservative scale.

[Townsend]

Psst, you guys are trying to reason with the Cabbage about OK governors on a thread about Tulsa's cycle safety policies.

Might as well swim in syrup.

[heironymouspasparagus]

How can I be Mary Fallin's Personal  OHP-guard if I live in Omaha, Nebraska like you believe? In Fact, I'm just a regular lunch box Joe Blow who likes the strong economy we have in Oklahoma, and the things Mary Fallin does that  grow our state...  Am I they only person who remembers how bad things were before Mary Fallin became governor? Think back to Brad Henry, Oklahoma was a mess the economy was in shambles. Mary Fallin reversed that. Talk about Doom & Gloom look at the Brad Henry era we had jobs fleeing and unemployment was sky high.

You really have no grasp of reality, do you?

[heironymouspasparagus]

Psst, you guys are trying to reason with the Cabbage about OK governors on a thread about Tulsa's cycle safety policies.

Might as well swim in syrup.

Is it plain corn syrup or high fructose corn syrup??  Looks like fun, either way....

[Conan71]

Is it plain corn syrup or high fructose corn syrup??  Looks like fun, either way....

I already peed in it.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I already peed in it.

Syrup is reminiscent of good times many years ago of a thing called a "Mazola Party"... 5 gallon bucket of Mazola oil, a heavy duty plastic sheet, a few close friends....before Twister was invented!!