Pentagon lost $8.5 trillion

[Hoss]

I don't know that I necessarily agree about their being less tension.  For certain, we have done quite a bit to thin the ranks of foreign terrorist groups the last 12 years.  But, there's always another asshat hiding behind the next rock looking to start his own jihad and plenty of religious fundamentalists ready to join the next cause.

As far as your comment on timing I agree.  The reason it likely won't happen is because no one wants to be accused of having "cut defense to the bone" when the next call to action happens.  It will happen, we just don't know when.  We like being the world's top cop because it keeps The Pentagon relevant and a priority in the budget.  Remember, Clinton was largely blamed for troops being ill-equipped at the start of the Iraqi and Afghani conflicts because he had thinned down the military under his watch.

Understand, I don't approve of this logic, I'm simply pointing out why this continues.  It won't change until we get representatives and leaders who are willing to do what is best for the country instead of worrying what is in their best self-interest.  To that end, I'm not sure how we can make that happen other than term limits but that's apparently a dead concept.

Until we get congressmen and women in the government who aren't afraid to turn down lobby money from the military contractors, then it will be the same ole same ole.  I keep saying this...K Street residents need outta government or else the status quo remains.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Until we get congressmen and women in the government who aren't afraid to turn down lobby moneyrelated to lobbyist of from the military contractors, then it will be the same ole same ole.  I keep saying this...K Street residents need outta government or else the status quo remains.

When you have 100 lobbyist related to 78 congress members you won't stop it any time soon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-9CfKkpOJ4

[Conan71]

Until we get congressmen and women in the government who aren't afraid to turn down lobby money from the military contractors, then it will be the same ole same ole.  I keep saying this...K Street residents rodents need outta government or else the status quo remains.

Fixed your quote for improved accuracy.

That's the other sticky issue on Pentagon spending.  It adds up to really good paying jobs in many home districts.  The double-speak about government spending being evil put forth by GOP members sounds pretty hollow when they keep heaping more money into military budgets.

I believe the administration would also be reluctant on any major cut-backs right now as that would be a blow on economic growth.  Like it or not, military spending is a large driver in our economy.

[Gaspar]

Fixed your quote for improved accuracy.

That's the other sticky issue on Pentagon spending.  It adds up to really good paying jobs in many home districts.  The double-speak about government spending being evil put forth by GOP members sounds pretty hollow when they keep heaping more money into military budgets.

I believe the administration would also be reluctant on any major cut-backs right now as that would be a blow on economic growth.  Like it or not, military spending is a large driver in our economy.

You know, you have a good point there.

When you look at just a small handful of the thousands of companies that make up the list of US military contractors, you get an interesting snapshot of the jobs affected.
Boeing Employees: 169,071
Northrop Grumman: 65,000
Lockheed Martin: 115,000
Raytheon: 68,000
General Dynamics: 92,200
United Technologies: 41,000

Companies like these rely on the Defense contracts not only for R&D towards new defense products and the production of contracted materials and equipment, but they also use that development to create products that are sold to other countries.

The way most of these companies are balanced, DOD spending reductions would hit them hard. Lockheed Martin, for instance, has a yearly operating budget of $47 billion and receives $37 billion of that each year from DOD contracts. Even a small reduction in defense spending would put them upside down, and not only cause labor force disruption, but massive investor disruption.  Basically many of these monster DOD contractors make up a good bit of the foundations of our economy, not to mention employing lots of folks.  

If you think deeper, the materials procurement required by all or any of these companies involves hundreds and thousands of suppliers who's businesses and employees also rely on the funding to trickle down through the relationship chain.  Thinking even a bit deeper I actually have a client who supplies contract parts to one of these companies as their almost singular vertical.  They lose that, and I actually lose revenue.

Ahh, the webs we weave when we let the government become a primary consumer in any market segment. Inflated prices, graft, and corporate dependence.  Can you imagine what would happen if we had single payer medical care and they became the primary consumer in that market?  We would likely have free bottles of aspirin that cost $1,000 each to produce.


When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators. – P.J. O'Rourke

[Conan71]

Yep, there are untold thousands of 10-100 employee companies who feed parts and processes to Boeing, LM, GD, etc.  Many of them are scattered throughout the state.  For that matter, they are scattered all over other states as well.  Cuts to defense has far-reaching consequences.  If bureaucracies were capable of self-policing, I bet you could cut the administrative budget at The Pentagon by 10-15% and no one would notice after a year or so in terms of any lost functionality.  Same can be said for many government agencies.  When jobs are given out as perks and paybacks rather than based on need, this is what happens.

[RecycleMichael]

Let's make something else.

All those companies making billion dollar fighter jets can make fuel efficient passenger aircraft. All the companies making billion dollars war ships can make passenger cruise and ferry boats.

Spend the same amount but make stuff we can use or sell.

[RecycleMichael]

Did you ever hear of Zebco fishing reels? They were a defense contractor who made timers for bombs. Zero Hour Bomb Company.

They converted their factory and workforce to making fishing reels.

[Gaspar]

Let's make something else.

All those companies making billion dollar fighter jets can make fuel efficient passenger aircraft. All the companies making billion dollars war ships can make passenger cruise and ferry boats.

Spend the same amount but make stuff we can use or sell.

I like the words, but the tune is hard to hum.

[Red Arrow]

Did you ever hear of Zebco fishing reels? They were a defense contractor who made timers for bombs. Zero Hour Bomb Company.

They converted their factory and workforce to making fishing reels.

I had an engineer friend (since deceased) that worked at Zebco for a while.  He once claimed (before working there) that he loved to work and extra hours didn't bother him even as salary exempt.  Zebco changed his mind.

[Conan71]

Did you ever hear of Zebco fishing reels? They were a defense contractor who made timers for bombs. Zero Hour Bomb Company.

They converted their factory and workforce to making fishing reels.

Actually they weren't that kind of bomb, it was used for a type of oil well fracking.  They were something like a small torpedo used to bring in an oil well.  

They were approached by Jasper Hull who had come up with a novel spinning reel and arrived in Tulsa with his last $20, his prototype reel, wife and kids.  His grandson has been a friend for years and the stories are epic.

http://digital.library.okstate.edu/encyclopedia/entries/Z/ZE001.html

Many of those military contractors do produce vehicles and components for civilian transportation.  One nice spill over from DoD spending that I enjoy is GPS technology.  I've got it in my phone, I use it on my bikes.  The civilian transportation system relies heavily on it.

Of course, market forces dictate how much those companies will build in the way of civilian craft.  When the economy slows, orders for those vehicles slows.  Not necessarily so with the military.  I guess the government could just as easily take money out of the military budget and have those contractors build lavish ships and aircraft to give away as gifts to developing nations.  Instead of killing insurgents, we could simply send them on lavish cruises for weeks on end and maybe they would cease to hate us.  Maybe we'd feel a lot better if we did that rather than building warcraft?

If the government spent that money to provide aircraft to domestic carriers or new cruise ships for Carnival, it would be derided as more corporate welfare. 

On a serious note, I appreciate your idealism and I agree, we spend way way too much at the DoD, but what do we use as methadone to wean that department off it's huge budget habit?

I'd love to pay less in taxes, I'm quite certain the DoD ends up with their fair share out the check I write every year.

[nathanm]

If the government spent that money to provide aircraft to domestic carriers or new cruise ships for Carnival, it would be derided as more corporate welfare.

Speaking only for myself, my main problem with corporate welfare is not the inherent idea. My problem with it is that it is doled out based on backroom deals and influence peddling, and almost completely ignored in the national discourse, where all we hear about is the "job creators" who are "under attack." If that is what we as a society decide to do after an open and frank debate, so be it. Some kinds of things that could be called corporate welfare, like the shift of more and more basic scientific research from being financed by corporations to being financed by the government, whether it be DARPA or NSF or whichever agency, I have no problem with on any level. I like basic science to be open rather than locked away in a file drawer somewhere.

When it is shielded from the political process, that is something government does reasonably well.

Given the present environment of essentially legalized bribery, the revolving door between regulators and particularly cushy industry jobs, and refusal to acknowledge the subsidies that are dumped on basically everybody, however, the whole concept annoys the piss out of me.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Did you ever hear of Zebco fishing reels? They were a defense contractor who made timers for bombs. Zero Hour Bomb Company.

They converted their factory and workforce to making fishing reels.

Zero Hour Bomb Company made electric detonators for fracturing oil formations while drilling.  (Drill a hole, sleeve it, the perforate at the level of the formation of interest.)

[heironymouspasparagus]

Many of those military contractors do produce vehicles and components for civilian transportation.  One nice spill over from DoD spending that I enjoy is GPS technology.  I've got it in my phone, I use it on my bikes.  The civilian transportation system relies heavily on it.

And yet, here you are enjoying the benefits of another one of those DOD projects - a DARPA project that was championed and in great part due to the efforts of one key person for the funding!  And you have been one of the "deniers" in the past about it - the Internet. 

As for Al claiming to 'invent' the internet - well, the reality, as is so often with Fox, completely different.  He never did claim that.  Fox just lied about it, as they do about so many things.  Robert Kahn and Vint Cerf on the other hand, have stated jointly - "Al Gore was the first political leader to recognize the importance of the Internet and to promote and support its development."

Who are they, one might ask?  That is LAE for the casual observer to investigate themselves.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Speaking only for myself, my main problem with corporate welfare is not the inherent idea.

"What's good for GM is good for the country...."