Think the police will change?

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

Okay. One more time. No media outlet filed a formal complaint with the police department for the incident. Officers told the media outlets they would need the tapes for evidence. Some of the news stations willingly gave the video of the incident to the officers at the scene. Others said they would need a subpoena.  Officers at the scene said okay but they did tell the cameramen to stay at the scene.  The officers needed to check with their supervisors to see if they could let the video leave or if we need to hold it there until a search warrant was obtained.

Your earlier statement "No complaint has been received from any media outlets" apparently meant going downtown later and filling out paperwork to you, when in fact it worked out to media legal teams having to remind TPD administration about certain guarantees against unlawful search and seizure.  
It is never legal for police to seize reporters notes or recordings without a specific court order, and what you just described at the scene was an unlawful arrest to facilitate an unlawful seizure.

quote:The OHP incident was posted on several websites.

Please give a link to any of those several websites that have the video.  An edited audio excerpt doesnt count.

quote: The lawyer for Rocky Northcutt did not give Rhett Morgan his only copy of the incident.

He didnt give him any copy of the incident.  Really, how hard would it have been to make a copy, or another DVD with the reporter's laptop?

quote: Lance McCrary was given a copy of the video.  I thought the Tulsa World got the video.  I guess everyone but the Tulsa World got a copy. I guess OHP doesn't think much of the Tulsa World.

The victim's defense attorney got a copy full of "gaps", which prompted the Tulsa World's inquiry.
The OHP has a responsibility to be honest to the public, and which outlets they may or may not like shouldnt affect the quality of their sincerity.

[MH2010]

Your earlier statement "No complaint has been received from any media outlets" apparently meant going downtown later and filling out paperwork to you, when in fact it worked out to media legal teams having to remind TPD administration about certain guarantees against unlawful search and seizure.
It is never legal for police to seize reporters notes or recordings without a specific court order, and what you just described at the scene was an unlawful arrest to facilitate an unlawful seizure.

-  Yes. That is what I meant.  What I described was not an unlawful arrest to facilitate an unlawful seizure.  The police wanted the cameramen (and camerawomen) to stay at the scene with the tapes. They were free to leave but not with the tapes until an agreement was reached.

Please give a link to any of those several websites that have the video. An edited audio excerpt doesnt count.

-I saw it on the channel 6 website and I think the channel 8 website. I don't know where it is now. You can always call Wellon Poe and ask for a copy.  I'm sure the investigation is over now.

He didnt give him any copy of the incident. Really, how hard would it have been to make a copy, or another DVD with the reporter's laptop?

- Maybe they had laptops like mine that doesn't have a DVD burner.  Maybe they were cheap and wouldn't splurge for the blank DVD.  Why don't you call Rhett Morgan or Gary James and ask them directly.

The victim's defense attorney got a copy full of "gaps", which prompted the Tulsa World's inquiry.

Actually, the defense attorney said "skips".  Gary James said "It just floors me for people to believe the Department of Public Safety or Highway Patrol are back there altering tapes," he said. "If they were, I wouldn't be representing troopers in disciplinary actions."

The videotape of the White traffic stop contains a digital counter and clear background audio on which no breaks are seen or heard, James said.

"That's why I challenge Mr. Roy, Ms. White. Mr. McCrary, don't just talk," he said. Attorney Chris Roy Sr. represents White in civil litigation against Northcutt, and Lance McCrary of Muskogee is her criminal defense attorney.

"If you have something that shows this tape was altered, bring it on; get your expert out there, and we'll have a battle of experts," James said. "This innuendo is amazing to me."

"You can't ask for a police officer to have anything better than an audio-video of the incident. If that audio-video of the incident bears out that the trooper is wrong, he'll pay for it. But the corollary is true. If the audio-video bears out that the citizen is wrong or committed the violation, they should also pay for it."

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

They were free to leave but not with the tapes until an agreement was reached.

That is not within the authority of police.  The reporters were within their legal rights to  peaceably resist.

quote:
"That's why I challenge Mr. Roy, Ms. White. Mr. McCrary, don't just talk," he said. Attorney Chris Roy Sr. represents White in civil litigation against Northcutt, and Lance McCrary of Muskogee is her criminal defense attorney.

What are you citing?  Can you provide a link?

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by patric

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

They were free to leave but not with the tapes until an agreement was reached.

That is not within the authority of police.  The reporters were within their legal rights to  peaceably resist.

quote:
"That's why I challenge Mr. Roy, Ms. White. Mr. McCrary, don't just talk," he said. Attorney Chris Roy Sr. represents White in civil litigation against Northcutt, and Lance McCrary of Muskogee is her criminal defense attorney.

What are you citing?  Can you provide a link?

We'll just have to agree to disagree on the tape deal.

I got his quote from this article...

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070929_1_A1_hApap21583

[tulsa_fan]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:Originally posted by tulsa_fan

Such ungrateful people, at least ***** about something that is worth it.  This isn't even topic!

If this is a sympathy competition:  no one I know has power, not one person I could stay with.  So my family sits at home in the cold instead of at a friends.  And hey, instead of overtime I actually missed work (read lost pay) and spent 10+ hours each day helping people out anyway.  So while I understand it is hard for you and I can empathize with your situation, the sympathy level around here just isn't shooting up.

That said, why is this "not a thread?"  Are you not concerned that the action of some of your husbands brothers on the thin blue line effecting the public image of him?  Do you not expect your husband to follow the laws he is asked to risk his life to enforce?

I just don't get why criticizing police for breaking the law is controversial to some people.  I'm an attorney - do I defend other attorney's who embezzle money, over charge, or other illegal and unethical behavior because some attorneys are in it for the greater good?  I simply don't get it.  

I would think law abiding police, their families , and most people who support a law abiding society would agree that those that enforce the laws should be expected to follow them.  As with Guido, if you for some reason think the police are above the law then I wholeheartedly disagree.

and again, since some people NEVER get it.  I understand the job of a policemen is very hard at times.  Dealing with scuzzy and dangerous people, working odd hours and so on.  I greatly appreciate the vast amount of good they do and recognize that they enable a civil society.   However, at the end of the day they are public employees and citizens - just like me.  They are compensated to perform a vital job but have no special prowess to usurp the legal system or other day to day laws. I appreciate that the scandals are such because such horrific breaches are rare - but I think they can do better.

Cannon - I think you missed my point entirely.  The catty jab at the police milking this for overtime was what I snapped at.  After working 16 hour shifts, my husband was lucky to get about 2 or 3 hours of sleep then either had to take care of the kids so I could work, we had power, or he was out helping other people get limbs out of the way, there's no sympathy contest here, it sucked for everyone affected, but for Friendly to act like overtime is something police get excited about during a disaster when their families are enduring the same hardships as everyone else is wasn't correct and was OFF TOPIC, which is what I said.  I'm not sure what you mean by not a thread?

I have disagreed with others when I think an officer is wrong.  I believe I tried hard emphasize with ?Swake? when he got his ticket and believed he was screwed.  I can happen.  I do agree officers should abide by the laws they enforce, but I also live in the real world and understand why they do a lot of the things they do.  I rode along Friday night, we responded to an alarm call, and we sped, without our lights on and then the call was cancelled on the way, since I needed to go to the bathroom, we went on to UDN.  So someone following us around would assume we were just speeding to get to the station and have no idea what was really going on. I know you think they should only speed, or anything, if they are running code, but I've been in the car when code is running and seen how STUPID drivers become when the lights are running.  

Just as you continue to make your disclaimer, here is mine, THERE ARE BAD COPS, there are cops that abuse their power, there are cops who break laws only because they think they can.  I can't stand that, it makes me sad because I know my husband and hundred of other officers who don't.  They work hard at their job.  I just don't always agree because you think you see something you are right.  I am willing to believe there may be two sides to the story.

I wish we could all sit around and hold hands and all get along.  But I've seen the crappy side, I wish he could go on a car stop and say, hey gentlemen, how are you doing tonight.  I know I can't see inside your car because your windows are so dark, and the fact that the car is registered to a convicted felon, who has multiple assult with a deadly weapon charges, really doesn't mean anything, I'm going to pretend you are an upstanding respectable citizen, I'm going to treat you the same as the 80 year old man I helped across the street.  I'm sure you will respond with respect when I ask to see your license, I'm sure you would never carry a weapon on your person, which would be illegal.  I'm not going to drop the F-bomb when you reach between your seat, I'm sure you are just looking for your license.  I'm just going to stand here, and not have my hand on my weapon because that may make you feel uncomfortable . . . you see officers can't always act like that, because sometimes that will leave an officer dead, remember Trooper Nicky Green who went, off duty, to check on a car who a passerby thought was in need of help?  Have you heard that tape?  I have, I know he begged for his life, as that thug shot him execution style.  See sometimes, just being a nice old police man gets them killed.  Sometimes officers say things that most of us, including myself, don't think appropriate, but needed, when the thugs they are dealing with only respond to it.

Anyway, I'm not arguing, I'm proud of what our police do, I'm proud Chief Palmer is back at the helm, he has before proven himself as a leader who will not accept disgraceful behavior.  I hope he will continue to push the bad cops out and make things better for those who make us proud everyday.

I just would rather our focus be on getting rid of officers who are corrupt, like tipping witnesses off before raids, or stealing property, or some of the other scary stuff that we have heard about in the last few years.  I really don't care that some officers speed, I speed most days . . . and sometimes I get pulled over and get a ticket for it.  Guess I just would rather focus on the bigger battles and don't get why there is such an alarm about such petty things, like they didn't use their signal at a car light . . .

Anyway, hope your power is back on.  Mine came back on Saturday and we are much happier people in our family!  This has been the pits.

[RecycleMichael]

Thanks for sharing TulsaFan.

I know many police officers and they are all outstanding individuals doing a difficult job. Yes, there are always going to be some who let the power go to their head and feel they are above the law.

My father was a police officer here in Tulsa for twenty years, retiring when I was in Clooege. He always wanted me to join the force, but I remember the difficult times, like when was of his friends on the force was killed in a routine traffic stop or the time when he had to arrest a neighbor and close friend for drunk driving. I also will never forget the time when we were minding our own business shopping in a local grocery store and someone he arrested months before attacked him. Being a police officer must be a very difficult job even when off the clock.

For that reason alone they deserve our respect.

[cannon_fodder]

tulsa_fan

I think we share the same sentiment.  My "overtime" comment was in response to a raised point and thus slightly out of context.  I understand that it was essentially forced overtime and in a 20 hour shift the overtime pay is no incentive at all.

And I agree, most cops do everything reasonable to stay on the straight and narrow.  If I occasionally saw an officer do the petty things I mentioned it would not cause me any alarm.  I just see it constantly - it really is not a big deal, just annoying.

What is a big deal is the fact that more and more bad cops are being exposed.  My childhood (and well into adulthood) delusion that the police side of the story was always right no longer really holds true.  Ride alongs, police practices classes, and other items discussed have dispelled that myth.  That's what concerns me.  When an officer testifies to something it is very likely it is the truth, but no longer absolute.  And that causes problems for your husband and for me.

That's all I'm saying.

Nonetheless, I'm very glad you have your heat back on (so do we!) and I hope your husband can cut back to "normal" hours.  Are there any plans to give officers/firemen additional days off to compensate them for their extended overtime &/or save budget money?  Seems like it might be something all parties would be happy with (assuming the reserves/additional officers can carry the load).

p.s. See why I put this in politics?  []

[tulsa_fan]

My husband 99.9% of the time takes his overtime in time off rather than pay.  I guess it's the benefit of me working and us not having to live paycheck to paycheck.  So his time won't hurt the budget this year!  Of course, I think with all the disater declarations, the city will be reimbursed all costs related to the storm so I think that will be OK.  I did hear from tons of officers how impressed they were with how things were handled from a law enforcement point of view.  The extra manpower was needed and it was put to use, not just come to work and not have a plan.  They did a good job of controlling loitering, my hubby was part of a group that caught a few burglars on Tuesday.  With no power and Christmas time, I am very pleased with how well police were able to control the crime.

So let's focus on a good police thing . . . of course, would be off topic . . . .

The police will be handing out computers to children who need them on Friday.  This is a project that has been going on for several years.  Its a very hard year, as the founder of PC Power, Retired Officer Gary DeWeese passed away this past weekend.  Many people have picked up the ball and are carrying his legacy this weekend!  There is good to be seen within the department!  

On that happy note, I must get back to work!

[cannon_fodder]

Honestly, I would thus far have no complaints about any of the services.

To me, it appears the City, the Police, Fire, EMSA; all responded very well.  AEP brought in a ton of crews quickly (ask OKC how they like OG&E right now).  Everything worked as well as one could have hoped.

Thank your husband for me.

[Vashta Nerada]

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-philadelphia-police-charged-20150205-story.html


After video surfaces, grand jury charges 2 Philadelphia policemen in beating

Two Philadelphia police officers were charged Thursday with beating a man on a scooter nearly two years ago and lying about it, resulting in wrongful charges against him.

A Philadelphia grand jury decided to charge Officers Sean McKnight and Kevin Robinson after the district attorney presented evidence. The use of prosecutor-led grand juries met deep scrutiny across the country last year after several high-profile investigations resulted in no charges for officers involved in the deaths of suspects in Ferguson, Mo., and New York City.

In Philadelphia, charges came after the surprise emergence of a surveillance video that shows two officers pummeling a scooter rider. The scene appeared to contradict the officers' original account of the incident, in which they had portrayed the suspect, Najee Rivera, as a violent and vicious attacker.

"The video undermined every aspect of the officers' account of the incident," Philadelphia Dist. Atty. Seth Williams said at a televised news conference Thursday, appearing alongside Police Commissioner Charles H. Ramsey. "As a grand jury found, none of it was true -- except for the blows inflicted on Najee Rivera."

On May 29, 2013,  McKnight and Kevin tried to pull over Rivera, who was riding a scooter. Rivera told the grand jury that he became frightened and sped away after the officers got out of their car with their batons extended and said, "Come here!" according to grand jury charging documents.

In the officers' original account of the incident, they said Rivera then fell off his scooter and attacked one of them.

"While running towards my partner I saw the Hispanic male grab my partner with both his hands by his chest upper vest area and slammed him into a brick wall of the building. The Hispanic male held my partner up against the wall and began throwing elbows towards my partner's face and head area," McKnight said in a signed statement, echoing the account given by Robinson, according to the charging documents.

The officers said they they had to beat Rivera to subdue him. Rivera faced charges including assault and resisting arrest based on their statements.

But officials said those charges were dropped after Rivera's girlfriend canvassed the neighborhood after the incident and found surveillance video from a local store that "directly refuted" the officers' "false and inaccurate" statements, according to the documents.

Williams, the district attorney, gave a blistering account of what the footage showed.

"In reality, Rivera didn't just fall off his scooter as officers approached in their patrol car. Instead, one of them actually reached out of the window and clubbed Rivera in the head; the car bumped the scooter and Rivera fell to the ground," Williams said at the news conference.

"Both officers then got out and immediately placed Rivera in their control. He never resisted, he never struck them, he never fought back, they just started hitting him," Williams continued. "First, one held him against the wall, while the other beat him with a baton. Then they held him on the ground and beat him some more, with both fist and baton.

"There's no doubt that the blows were connecting, because the video also had audio, and you can hear Mr. Rivera from the time he fell off his scooter, writhing in pain, screaming for help."

The beating fractured Rivera's right orbital bone of his face, swelled one of his eyes shut, and left him with cuts requiring stitches and staples, according to the charging documents.


The grand jury recommended eight charges for each officer: criminal conspiracy, aggravated assault, reckless endangerment, tampering with public records, false reports to law enforcement, obstruction, and official oppression.


The officers were arraigned Thursday, Williams said. A representative for the Philadelphia Fraternal Order of Police, the local police union, could not confirm whether the officers had union attorneys yet.

Williams' office has recently pressed charges in two different cases alleging police misconduct. On Monday, Sgt. Brandon Ruff was accused of providing false identification to law enforcement for giving a false name while dropping off guns belonging to other people, according to a news release.

On Jan. 22, a homicide detective, Ronald Dove, was charged with several counts related to obstructing a murder investigation after officials said they discovered Dove had been hiding the prime suspect.

The charges against Dove also came after a grand jury investigation, and Williams said Thursday that prosecutors had a responsibility to use grand juries to hold police accountable for abuses.

"We don't need to create other agencies, other entities," such as civilian review boards to investigate police abuse, Williams told the Los Angeles Times in a phone interview Thursday. "It's my responsibility as [district attorney] to investigate crimes. If the citizens believe I can't do that, or won't do that, the recourse is to get rid of me."

Williams said at the news conference that two weeks ago he convened a meeting of black district attorneys to talk about how to handle grand juries in the wake of widespread protests after grand juries rejected indictments in the deaths of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo., and Eric Garner in New York. Both Brown and Garner were black; the officers involved in their deaths were white.

"The consensus was that it is our responsibility not only to work with police day in and day out, but also to hold them accountable on those particular occasions when an officer does wrong," Williams told reporters.