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June 26, 2024, 12:12:15 am
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Author Topic: Shocker. The Daily Oklahoma takes shot across  (Read 7417 times)
Wrinkle
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« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2007, 09:31:15 am »

You guys are aware Downtown Tulsa already has 1,400 hotel rooms, right?

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dsjeffries
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« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2007, 09:52:56 am »

2025 money is being spent all over the town, too, though.  Yes, the arena cost a fortune, but to say that's the only project and the others were afterthoughts...

I for one have seen several tangible benefits from 2025, just in my small town: Osage Prairie Trail which connects to the River parks Trails, a brand new community pool, upgrades to our community center, downtown streetscape improvements, and a new downtown pocket park are some of the projects Skiatook alone has benefitted from--and our projects were just a small blip on the radar compared to those in the rest of the metro.

Without 2025 funds, the fairgrounds wouldn't have even been on the map to host some of the new large events they've gotten in the past couple of years.

And 2025 made monies available for neighborhood improvements, too, as well as funding for housing in downtown.  The smaller-than-BOK projects are still vital to Tulsa.  Just ask anyone that had to use the old Morton Clinic.  People are grateful for these projects that you call afterthoughts.

It's not like someone just thought, "Hey, let's build an arena and throw some other crap in there so people will like the idea".  There were two previous attempts--both of which failed--that were aimed at doing a lot of the same things.  Granted, there wasn't a Cesar Pelli-designed arena in the Tulsa Project, but many of the ideas from those attempts made it through with 2025.

2025 also provides funds for schools--it might not be what they all need to make the improvements we think they need to make, but it's a start.  Don't forget that the original MAPS didn't include funding for schools (or at least, not that I can find).  Most of that money went directly into downtown and downtown alone.  Out of this list of projects taken from COKC's website, the only one that isn't in downtown is the Fairgrounds project: AT&T BallPark, downtown Library, Canadian/Okla. River improvements, Bricktown Canal, Ford Center, renovation of the Myriad/Cox, renovation of Civic Ctr. Music Hall, the trolly system and renovations to the OKC Fairgrounds.

MAPS for Kids was only passed in 2001 and in itself is a $180m project, so comparing that to Vision 2025 is like comparing apples to basketballs.

Don't downplay Vision2025's significance or role in turning Tulsa and the whole metro in a better place to live, work and play.  I'm not saying that every project is a huge success, but each one makes a difference.  We all can disagree about what should have been done with the money, but let's save that talk for the next time something on this scale is put together.

Plus--good or bad--without it, where would Tulsa be right now??  What development would be going on right now in downtown? (And let's not forget what OSU-Tulsa and OU-Tulsa would be, since we receive as close to zero State dollars as possible.)
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NellieBly
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« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2007, 10:06:35 am »

The fairgrounds renovations are hardly the work of Vision 2025. That started with their own tax Four to fix the county.

I visited OKC not too long ago after not visiting for several years. It looked pretty good. Driving into town the first thing I saw was people picking up trash! Wow, I thought. Then I noticed the streets -- aaahhhh it's such a joy to drive on smooth concrete streets with working traffic lights. I was shocked at how non-trashy the city looked compared to the last time I was there (and compared to Tulsa. They have a lot to be proud of because I think they made a more overall investment rather than investing in a few things.
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Renaissance
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« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2007, 10:45:10 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Wrinkle

You guys are aware Downtown Tulsa already has 1,400 hotel rooms, right?





No.  List 'em.
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swake
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« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2007, 10:56:52 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Floyd

quote:
Originally posted by Wrinkle

You guys are aware Downtown Tulsa already has 1,400 hotel rooms, right?





No.  List 'em.



It's actually about 1200.

450 each (about) at The Crowne Plaza and Double Tree hotels, another 200+ at the Great Western and just under 100 more at the Ambassador.

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swake
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« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2007, 10:59:20 am »

quote:
Originally posted by NellieBly

The fairgrounds renovations are hardly the work of Vision 2025. That started with their own tax Four to fix the county.




Started with, but 2025 kicked in another $40 million in improvements
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Oil Capital
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« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2007, 11:00:13 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Wrinkle

You guys are aware Downtown Tulsa already has 1,400 hotel rooms, right?





Only in your imagination.

Crowne Plaza:  462
Doubletree:    417
Great Western: 207

Total:   1086

Even including the Ambassador only gets you to 1141 rooms
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Chicken Little
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« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2007, 11:12:53 am »

quote:
Originally posted by DScott28604

It's not like someone just thought, "Hey, let's build an arena and throw some other crap in there so people will like the idea".

Actually, that's exactly what it was like.

D, I'm not badmouthing Tulsa, we're much better for the experience.  And I think they are doing the best they can with the project that was handed to them.  It's clear that the arena and convention center were the centerpiece of V2025.  Offering up a paultry $2.1 million in a neighborhood "competition" to me provides ample evidence that nobody was thinking about neighborhoods when V2025 was "thunk" up.  Neighborhoods were an afterthought.  Trails, community centers, and other projects were all just little pieces of pork thrown in to get votes for the arena/convention center.

I'm not saying those trails and things are bad...far from it.  I'm simply describing the "visioning process" as I remember it.  Unlike MAPS, V2025 wasn't well-planned or thought through.  It was a panicky reaction to a sudden economic downturn.

Most of the good ideas gathered prior to V2025 were ignored in favor of a knee-jerk "solution" to build facilities for conventions and events.  Even at the time, however, many Tulsans were saying that tourism and conventions have much more to do with the quality and character of the city than with the facilities.  People will meet in a dumpster in Las Vegas because it's Las Vegas.  Likewise, you can build a first rate convention center in Boise and it'll still be Boise.

Many Tulsans were saying that the arena convention center would have made a fine project down the line, after we had made other investments in neighborhoods, downtown housing, transit, i.e., things that would improve the quality of life for Tulsans.  But as a first step, the facilities were premature.

Since then, I've seen an improvement in the way Tulsan's think about the future...less panic, more community involvment, more forethought,...and that's the way it should be.  The rejection of the Channels in favor of a much better River Plan is a remarkable improvement for Tulsa.  All I'm saying is that MAPS has been that way all along and V2025 was, in comparison, a cluster****.

I agree that V2025 represents a kind of forward momentum, but it also represents all that is bad about the way decisions are made in this town.  But as I noted with the River Plan, that's changing.
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Okiecrat
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« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2007, 10:24:17 am »

quote:
Originally posted by swake

quote:
Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Waterboy, in truth - people complain that we don't need any government funded hotel space downtown.  I'm a huge fan of private hotels... but it is not the roll of government nor where I want my tax money.



You are aware that $20 million of the $40 million spent on the Skirvin was public money, right?



If I am not mistaken, the big Bass Pro Shop in OKC was entirely built with tax money and leased at very favorable terms to Bass Pro.  The Gaylords supposedly sold their stake in Bass Pro when it became public knowlege that they were benefitting financially from the bond proposals that they were promoting heavily in their newspaper and on their TV station.  You can bet the farm that they were able to skim a sizable "take" off the MAPS projects.
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Friendly Bear
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« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2007, 01:25:42 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Oil Capital

quote:
Originally posted by Wrinkle

You guys are aware Downtown Tulsa already has 1,400 hotel rooms, right?





Only in your imagination.

Crowne Plaza:  462
Doubletree:    417
Great Western: 207

Total:   1086

Even including the Ambassador only gets you to 1141 rooms



In Economics 101, it's called the Law of Supply and Demand.

If there were a DEMAND for Downtown hotel rooms, there WOULD DEFINITELY BE A SUPPLY.

The actual supply may lag by a year the levelized demand, because it would take at least that long to get a new hotel built and operational.

The hotel business is very cyclicle, driven by the tempo of both national and local economic activity.

The tendency in the hotel industry is actually either feast or famine.

When there is intensified demand for rooms, vacancies decline, and rack rates increase:  The end result is OVERBUILDING.

Resulting in OVER-SUPPLY of rooms.

The resulting glut of rooms drives down rack-rates, and the poorer economic model/high cost hotels go out of business.

The reason why there are no new hotels in downtown Tulsa?  

Simple:

NO DEMAND.

Nil.  

Zilch.  

Nada.

Reason there is a new Renaissance Hotel and Convention Center at E. 71st and U.S. 169:  DEMAND.

If the new BOK Arena and remodeled Maxwell Convention Center are successful OVER TIME, then definitely there will be new hotels built downtown.  

And it could also be done without large injections of corporate welfare and other government subsidies.

I don't think Mr. Hammonds got any government subsidies to build his shiny new Four-Star Hotel

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Aa5drvr
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« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2007, 02:50:40 pm »

I still laugh at the interview KRMG did with Hammons when his hotel had its grand opening out here.
They asked why he didnt build his new hotel downtown.  

His answer was like, (Big Sigh)"Well because nobody goes downtown.  You have to build a hotel where the people are.   A hotel doesnt attract people to an area."

He went on to say that when he built his hotel that the hot real estate was either side of the Creek Tpk.
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Friendly Bear
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« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2007, 06:26:42 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Aa5drvr

I still laugh at the interview KRMG did with Hammons when his hotel had its grand opening out here.
They asked why he didnt build his new hotel downtown.  

His answer was like, (Big Sigh)"Well because nobody goes downtown.  You have to build a hotel where the people are.   A hotel doesnt attract people to an area."

He went on to say that when he built his hotel that the hot real estate was either side of the Creek Tpk.




I didn't hear the interview, but it is apparent from his track record that Mr. Hammonds knows a thing or two about the hotel industry.  

He knows that the Tulsa Metro Chamber Vision 2025 Vision of, "Build It and They Will Come", is shere lunacy.

It only sounds sane if you're spending OPM:  

Other People's Money.  Namely, taxpayer money.  

$100,000,000's gone into the pockets of the Flint and Rooney construction companies, as well as "wetting the beak" of the sole-sourced bond underwriting departments of two locally-owned banks.

I doubt if the Arena or renovated convention center will foster enough economic revival to justify another hotel downtown.T

The Arena will be a seldom-used White Elephant, vacumning the city budget for operating costs:  Maintenance, cleaning, utilities, security, etc.

The "buzz" about downtown is real, however, but small-scale and incremental like the Brady District and the Blue Dome District.  They have attractions that make people want to come downtown.  

Unfortunately, most of both Blue Dome and Brady areas were flattened by urban renewal decades ago, and the former brick warehouse districts that they were formerly comprised, long gone...  

Nonetheless, they are slowly building up a critical mass to create, ultimately, a local destination location.

Kind of like the Dallas West End, which in our last few years has actually been back on the decline.

When the Spaghetti Warehouse took a gamble on a vacant cotton warehouse in the Dallas West End warehouse district back in the 1980's, they were literally the ownly restaurant around, surrounded by boarded up warehouses.  SLOWLY, other restaurants, and later retail and hotels were attracted to the area.

It was a slow, years-long process.  And, besides the low-cost business model for their physical plant in old brick warehouses, the West End had something else to offer:

The infamous Dealey Plaza is only a couple of blocks away.  

Would the San Antonio Riverwalk be as vibrant without The Alamo adjacent?

Tulsa could actually do the same thing if they would tie Brady and Blue Dome Districts to a well-planned, well-executed, well-documented Museum of Remembrance & Reconciliation of the 1921 Tulsa Race Riot.  John Hope Frankin could be the keynote speaker at the Ribbon-Cutting ceremony.

THAT would provide the critical peripheral attraction like the Alamo and like Dealey Plaza to get people downtown, with the impacted Greenwood area only a short distance away.

The proposed East Village Wal-Mart Superstore may make a difference downtown, because if you live or work downtown, it's also nice to be able to shop there, as well.  

Home Depot seems to be doing pretty well downtown.

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Friendly Bear
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« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2007, 06:35:45 am »

quote:
Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:
Originally posted by Aa5drvr

I still laugh at the interview KRMG did with Hammons when his hotel had its grand opening out here.
They asked why he didnt build his new hotel downtown.  

His answer was like, (Big Sigh)"Well because nobody goes downtown.  You have to build a hotel where the people are.   A hotel doesnt attract people to an area."

He went on to say that when he built his hotel that the hot real estate was either side of the Creek Tpk.






Sorry, I hit REPLY instead of EDIT of my earlier comments.  

I am NOT trying to generate VANITY posts to my own comment, Friends and Comrades.
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Aa5drvr
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« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2007, 07:28:37 am »

We live on the line between Tulsa and "Fashionable North Bixby, Shhhhhh."

We really like taking visitors to McNellies downtown, because we can hit some of the sights on the way there and back.  The shame of it is, once we go to McNellies, have a few drinks and dinner, we leave.  There isnt really anything for us 40-50-somethings to do down there.
If there is, the promotion is way off.  
Oft times we will stop at Los Cabos sit outside at the bar and listen to music and people watch.
Seems like the DT venues are aimed at a much younger demographic.
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joiei
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« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2007, 11:54:56 am »

Renaissance Tulsa Hotel & Convention Center is not a Mobil 4 star hotel, it is a AAA 4 Diamond hotel, and there is a big difference.  It is a Mobil 3 star property.  There are NO Mobil 4 Star or 5 Star properties in the state of Oklahoma.  IF they say they have 4 stars, then they gave themselves those stars.  That property isn't all that interesting, it looks like an Embassy suites on the inside.  Very pedisterian in the interoir decoration department.
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It's hard being a Diamond in a rhinestone world.
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