Veterans groups banned from Veterans Day Parade

[Ed W]

quote:Originally posted by guido911


What is your point with respect to what I wrote in response to Hometown. That's what started this. Unless of course you mean we should celebrate the "bravery" of those who gleefully refused to serve their country at a time of war on Veteran's day.

Oh, and stow the "rightard" crap. You sound like Neptune.

Oh, I see.  You missed my point, so I'll reiterate it.  That means I'll say it again using different words, hopefully shorter ones that are easier to understand.

Even protesters and anti-war vets are brave.

There.  That was fairly simple, nothing more than three syllables.

[Hometown]

Guido, it's hard now to grasp the mindset of the '60s and the ascendancy of the Left.  

I remember participating in Moratorium here in Tulsa and the following month in Washington, D.C.  My friend Brian and I were the only high school students on a chartered bus taking OU students to Washington for the big Moratorium in I think November.  The year was 1969.  We stayed at a Unitarian Church in the D.C. area.  It was a historic march with record setting numbers of people.  It was my first time in the capital and the movement of masses of people was breathtaking.  And to top everything off the SDS did a snake dance down the street where our bus was parked and the police tear gassed the innocent bystanders after the SDS had dissipated.

I regret that the young war resisters now don't have the support we did.

[Rico]

The fact that some chose not to serve in Viet Nam neither makes them a "coward" nor proves that they are any less "patriotic" than the next fellow...

VietNam was a suicide mission... For what...? Historian's are still out on that one...

With the amount of trade the United States now does with Viet Nam, makes one wonder, "What the Hell was the War all about...?"

VietNam did give us a fellow named William Laws Calley and a little known spot on the map called "My Lai"...

As a result of Mister Calley's actions in "My Lai"... We were given a new wrinkle in the Military Code.

So much for that... Now Guido here is a little something to put a smile on your face.

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by Ed W

quote:Originally posted by guido911


What is your point with respect to what I wrote in response to Hometown. That's what started this. Unless of course you mean we should celebrate the "bravery" of those who gleefully refused to serve their country at a time of war on Veteran's day.

Oh, and stow the "rightard" crap. You sound like Neptune.

Oh, I see.  You missed my point, so I'll reiterate it.  That means I'll say it again using different words, hopefully shorter ones that are easier to understand.

Even protesters and anti-war vets are brave.

There.  That was fairly simple, nothing more than three syllables.

Well then, let's get into our little drum circle, and celebrate the bravery of those who didn't serve our country in the military on VETERAN'S DAY. What a great idea...

And another thing, pack up your contrived definition of "bravery", which certainly must make those freedom gravy trainers who ran off to Canada ran than be drafted feel good, and sell it to the Berkeley crowd hippie

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

Guido, it's hard now to grasp the mindset of the '60s and the ascendancy of the Left.  

I remember participating in Moratorium here in Tulsa and the following month in Washington, D.C.  My friend Brian and I were the only high school students on a chartered bus taking OU students to Washington for the big Moratorium in I think November.  The year was 1969.  We stayed at a Unitarian Church in the D.C. area.  It was a historic march with record setting numbers of people.  It was my first time in the capital and the movement of masses of people was breathtaking.  And to top everything off the SDS did a snake dance down the street where our bus was parked and the police tear gassed the innocent bystanders after the SDS had dissipated.

I regret that the young war resisters now don't have the support we did.

Gee Hometown, I take it all back. That's bravery....

[Breadburner]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

I was a candidate for the draft back during Vietnam and the lottery.  The last year of the lottery my number was close but I lucked out.  Before the lottery most of the guys that went were working class.  Middle and Upper class kids got out by going to college and that qualified for a deferral before the lottery.

Serving in the military struck me as being a lot like going to prison and if I had been drafted my plan was to go to Canada.

Before the war was over I made one of my famous cross country hitch hiking trips and I made friends with another hitch hiker, a military man who was AWOL.  We got stuck in Salt Lake City and stayed there all day and most of a night before we were picked up by some old guys from Arkansas in a truck.  The military man was one of those people you feel like you know very well right away.  We talked and talked and talked.  Before we split up outside of Tulsa, I took his name and number.  I wrote him several times over the years and never got a response.  I still think about this man and hope that things worked out for him.  I've lost his address, can't even remember where he was from.

I guess that was before don't ask don't tell....

[Hometown]

I was afraid of combat and I respect those that are not.  It did involve some personal gumption to oppose the war and to come out as a homosexual in the early '70s and to speak up for immigrants today, but I have never tried to make a case for me being brave.  I did, to the best of my ability, try to stop the war.  And guess what?  We stopped the war.

I think it's important for people like Breadburner and Guido to know that Tulsa has always played a part in left wing politics, no matter how modest the scale of participation.  

My next door neighbors played a part in the Vietnam antiwar movement and Liberation Theology in Central America through their church here in Tulsa.  They still belong to the same congregation and they are still left leaning.  Tulsa's Catholic Church and Tulsa University were also centers of antiwar movement.  We Liberals are here and always have been.

I think seeing combat on television every night made a difference.  Now there are restrictions on broadcasts that don't allow us the same view of our current war or give us an opportunity to understand the terrible challenges our service people face today.

You've heard those surprising statistics from combat:

Hope on the Battlefield
by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman

Military leaders know a secret: The vast majority of people are overwhelmingly reluctant to take a human life.

During World War II, U.S. Army Brigadier General S.L.A. Marshall asked average soldiers how they conducted themselves in battle. Before that, it had always been assumed that the average soldier would kill in combat simply because his country and his leaders had told him to do so, and because it might be essential to defend his own life and the lives of his friends. Marshall's singularly unexpected discovery was that, of every hundred men along the line of fire during the combat period, an average of only 15 to 20 "would take any part with their weapons." This was consistently true, "whether the action was spread over a day, or two days, or three."

http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/greatergood/current_issue/grossman.html

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

I did, to the best of my ability, try to stop the war.  And guess what?  We stopped the war.

Actually, I believe it was an act of Congress or exectutive order, but let's not be technical here....

[guido911]

Couldn't resist this timely gem that I saw today:

http://www.canada.com/cityguides/halifax/info/story.html?id=a75afd45-daac-478d-a9a2-ad2a6ab7e1d9&k=78557

Looks like Canada's Supreme Court refuses to classify any of our "brave" military deserters who flee there as refugees. If you want a real laugh, look at the last quote from some "activist" responding to the decision and pleading to Parliament:

"Do not let the principles that Canadians cherish slip away"

Exactly what principles are those? "Canada: We want America's losers"

[Hometown]

Well I could have done everything possible to avoid combat in Vietnam and grown up and gone on to become president and then as president waged an "elective" war and then sent young men and women into harm's way, but that would have been hypocrisy beyond belief.

Come on folks, let's get busy and make sure that when our men and women come home from Iraq they receive the care they need.  And let's back up those sentiments with funding.  That's the real way to honor our vets.

[Neptune]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

I think it's important for people like Breadburner and Guido to know that Tulsa has always played a part in left wing politics, no matter how modest the scale of participation.

I disagree.  The left-wing is overrated.  Mainly by self-described "right-wingers."  "Left-wing" is almost redundant with American Politics.

Name a "conservative" president.  

*sound of crickets*

If you can't have a "right-wing" president, how can you have a "left-wing" president?  They're complimentary, without one, there isn't the other.

What does "conservative" mean anyway?  The Libertarian Party calls itself "Economic Liberals".  They don't call themselves "conservatives", because it indicates an refusal to change and adapt.  So what's a conservative?

The polarizing division is false, it's man-made, fictitious.  Ever hear a "conservative" talking about how great it was in the days of way back, only to rip on FDR or the gov't?  Why is it that "conservative" and "anti-gov't" can describe the same thing?  Why do "conservatives" have such short memories about how high taxes used to be in the "good ole days"?  Why do "conservatives" forget the contributions made by Christians to Civil Rights?

There no such thing as a "conservative" party or political group, it's just a bunch of complainers cobbled together for the single solitary purpose of making wealthy guys wealthier.  "Liberal" is moniker attached to change groups, and everything that used to be normal American politics.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

Well I could have done everything possible to avoid combat in Vietnam and grown up and gone on to become president and then as president waged an "elective" war and then sent young men and women into harm's way, but that would have been hypocrisy beyond belief.

Come on folks, let's get busy and make sure that when our men and women come home from Iraq they receive the care they need.  And let's back up those sentiments with funding.  That's the real way to honor our vets.

And his war protestor predecessor who never wore the uniform didn't send soldier's into harm's way?

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

Well I could have done everything possible to avoid combat in Vietnam and grown up and gone on to become president and then as president waged an "elective" war and then sent young men and women into harm's way, but that would have been hypocrisy beyond belief.

You instead did everything possible to protect yourself while at the same time doing all you and your anti-war crowd could do to make it harder on those brave enough to stand in harm's way in Vietnam.

[rwarn17588]

Feh. The anti-war crowd didn't make it hard on the soldiers in Vietnam. The idiot generals and the stupid politicians did. It's always the soldiers who take the brunt of dumb wars.