Trouble Brewing Upstream

[Conan71]

Possible bad news for the Arkansas River:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080215/ap_on_re_us/mining_town_threatened

[waterboy]

Doesn't look good for those immediately downstream. I wonder how far heavy metals are carried and whether they make it this far.

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Possible bad news for the Arkansas River:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080215/ap_on_re_us/mining_town_threatened

ah yes Leadville, very pictureesque town.  Full of stupid people who had too much lead exposure (just kidding on that)

[cannon_fodder]

OK, correct me if I'm wrong.

Current releases from Keystone dam are at 10,000 CFS.  

1 cubic foot = 7.480 519 480 519 gallon [US, liquid].  http://www.onlineconversion.com/volume.htm

So 74,800 gallons per second.

They have 1,000,000,000 gallons of contaminated water (how contaminated and what the dilution factor would be when it entered the water, we do not know).

Assuming the river needs to clear all that contamination and that it just enters the stream:

1Bil/74800 = 13369 seconds, or 228.82 minutes or 3.71 hours (a lot shorter than I thought to clear 1bil gallons).

That is at a relatively high flow (it would be spring) and ignores a TON of factors.  The real problem would be residue left over and holding the filth in Keystone.  I'd imagine it would kill the sport fishing (if not literally the fish) if the concentration went very high at all.

and I don't know the dilution factor nor the deposit levels of lead (how fast it drops out of the water).  But you know what, my sister is a hydrologist & environmental engineer.  Maybe I should ask her.

[RecycleMichael]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

...and I don't know the dilution factor ...

Dilution is the solution to pollution.

[Conan71]

Lots of other bad stuff which could be in there besides lead, Zink, and cadmium.

Keep in mind that a lot of mine waste was discharged into this watershed for years and years before the ultimate environmental impact of that was realized.  

It could have immediate detrimental effects to the watershed, but it should be able to bounce back.

Sounds like at this point the EPA and BOC still don't have a very good grasp on the levels and ultimate ramifications.  Could be a lot like the "Big Thompson" flood in Rocky Mountain National Park that wiped out a lot of Estes Park in 1983 or so, only with a lot more heavy metal.

[cannon_fodder]

From a hydrologist/environmental scientist:

quote:
Dude, I have no idea and I don't care :0 (I ended my query with feel free to tell me you have no idea or don't care). Seriously, though, I haven't much of a clue of how lead behaves in surface water...

I do know that lead, as in pure lead not lead compounds, is damn near insoluble in water. It does, however, have a strong affinity for soil (particularly clays) and once there, it's a ***** to get rid of since it can't be broken down, only converted to other forms (I've dealt with lead in soil at a refinery - a remnant from the leaded gasoline days - and they were "remediating" by excavating all the contaminated areas and treating the removed soil as haz waste by drumming it and sending to the appropriate landfill). Lead in surface water typically tends to be absorbed on soil particles (transported through runoff) rather than "in" the water itself. Whether they settle out as transported down river beats me! And obviously lead builds through the food chain (hence, the problem with it in fish), but the only way to actually know what's there would be to test samples... Luckily groundwater, what most of us drink, isn't generally a pathway for lead migration since it's by nature low in suspended soils.

So how's that for a consultant response where I rambled off some stuff, but didn't actually answer your questions? Took about 20 minutes, so that will be $50 please! Ha.

[Steve]

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

...and I don't know the dilution factor ...

Dilution is the solution to pollution.

Speaking purely from intuition and common sense, won't there reach a point where dilution can't mitigate the problem?  (I know your post was tongue-in-cheek.)

Sort of like the recently passed economic stimulus/tax rebate package.  Who cares if it costs our federal deficit $100 billion dollars?  We don't have to pay for it, our kids and grandkids can worry about that, for we will be dead.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

From a hydrologist/environmental scientist:

quote:
Dude, I have no idea and I don't care :0 (I ended my query with feel free to tell me you have no idea or don't care). Seriously, though, I haven't much of a clue of how lead behaves in surface water...

I do know that lead, as in pure lead not lead compounds, is damn near insoluble in water. It does, however, have a strong affinity for soil (particularly clays) and once there, it's a ***** to get rid of since it can't be broken down, only converted to other forms (I've dealt with lead in soil at a refinery - a remnant from the leaded gasoline days - and they were "remediating" by excavating all the contaminated areas and treating the removed soil as haz waste by drumming it and sending to the appropriate landfill). Lead in surface water typically tends to be absorbed on soil particles (transported through runoff) rather than "in" the water itself. Whether they settle out as transported down river beats me! And obviously lead builds through the food chain (hence, the problem with it in fish), but the only way to actually know what's there would be to test samples... Luckily groundwater, what most of us drink, isn't generally a pathway for lead migration since it's by nature low in suspended soils.

So how's that for a consultant response where I rambled off some stuff, but didn't actually answer your questions? Took about 20 minutes, so that will be $50 please! Ha.

I think...I feel better now. Thats about a 1000 miles of stream and soil before it gets here isn't it?

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

From a hydrologist/environmental scientist:

quote:
Dude, I have no idea and I don't care :0 (I ended my query with feel free to tell me you have no idea or don't care). Seriously, though, I haven't much of a clue of how lead behaves in surface water...

I do know that lead, as in pure lead not lead compounds, is damn near insoluble in water. It does, however, have a strong affinity for soil (particularly clays) and once there, it's a ***** to get rid of since it can't be broken down, only converted to other forms (I've dealt with lead in soil at a refinery - a remnant from the leaded gasoline days - and they were "remediating" by excavating all the contaminated areas and treating the removed soil as haz waste by drumming it and sending to the appropriate landfill). Lead in surface water typically tends to be absorbed on soil particles (transported through runoff) rather than "in" the water itself. Whether they settle out as transported down river beats me! And obviously lead builds through the food chain (hence, the problem with it in fish), but the only way to actually know what's there would be to test samples... Luckily groundwater, what most of us drink, isn't generally a pathway for lead migration since it's by nature low in suspended soils.

So how's that for a consultant response where I rambled off some stuff, but didn't actually answer your questions? Took about 20 minutes, so that will be $50 please! Ha.

I think...I feel better now. Thats about a 1000 miles of stream and soil before it gets here isn't it?

With the meandering, I bet it's pretty damn close.  I've always wanted to take a trip up there in summer specifically to see the head waters of the Arkansas.

[Breadburner]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

From a hydrologist/environmental scientist:

quote:
Dude, I have no idea and I don't care :0 (I ended my query with feel free to tell me you have no idea or don't care). Seriously, though, I haven't much of a clue of how lead behaves in surface water...

I do know that lead, as in pure lead not lead compounds, is damn near insoluble in water. It does, however, have a strong affinity for soil (particularly clays) and once there, it's a ***** to get rid of since it can't be broken down, only converted to other forms (I've dealt with lead in soil at a refinery - a remnant from the leaded gasoline days - and they were "remediating" by excavating all the contaminated areas and treating the removed soil as haz waste by drumming it and sending to the appropriate landfill). Lead in surface water typically tends to be absorbed on soil particles (transported through runoff) rather than "in" the water itself. Whether they settle out as transported down river beats me! And obviously lead builds through the food chain (hence, the problem with it in fish), but the only way to actually know what's there would be to test samples... Luckily groundwater, what most of us drink, isn't generally a pathway for lead migration since it's by nature low in suspended soils.

So how's that for a consultant response where I rambled off some stuff, but didn't actually answer your questions? Took about 20 minutes, so that will be $50 please! Ha.

I think...I feel better now. Thats about a 1000 miles of stream and soil before it gets here isn't it?

With the meandering, I bet it's pretty damn close.  I've always wanted to take a trip up there in summer specifically to see the head waters of the Arkansas.

I just took a dump Conan,It's headed your way.....

[Conan71]

I believe dihydrogen monoxide is going to be the biggest concern for Tulsa out of this.

That's the same stuff they use in pesticides and as a coolant in nuclear power plants

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