Some damn thing in the Balkans

[cannon_fodder]

Kosovo declared independence from Serbia today.  This has the potential to get very interesting.  Both Serbia (duh) and long time occupier/protectorate Russia have denounced the move.  Seven Western countries have said he was a needed move.

The United State is generally on the sidelines as we are over extended and not really involved.  It will be interesting to see the world handle a crisis the US is not likely to get dragged in to:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7249034.stm

[FOTD]

There goes our Super Power title....

[si_uk_lon_ok]

It'll be fine, Serbia is just chest beating. They want to join the EU and aren't going to mess it up over Kosovo and Russia is just being Russia. I think it's a great example of nation building if you ask me.

I mean they are waving EU and US flags, no one outside the US ever waves US flags and no-one anywhere even owns an EU flag to wave.

[inteller]

There is no oil there and no prez getting his dick sucked needs a diversion so Kosovo is on their own this time.

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

There is no oil there and no prez getting his dick sucked needs a diversion so Kosovo is on their own this time.

Heh, so true.  I think we might have been involved anyway with low troops levels or logistics if we weren't a little busy elsewhere.  We may still provide logistical support if NATO gets involved.

But I had to use the "some damn thing in the Balakans" subject line.  Not a quote you get to use often.

[edit] test[/edit]

[si_uk_lon_ok]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:Originally posted by inteller

There is no oil there and no prez getting his dick sucked needs a diversion so Kosovo is on their own this time.

Heh, so true.  I think we might have been involved anyway with low troops levels or logistics if we weren't a little busy elsewhere.  We may still provide logistical support if NATO gets involved.

But I had to use the "some damn thing in the Balakans" subject line.  Not a quote you get to use often.

NATO is involved already, there are 16,000 military personnel in Kosovo called the Kosovo Force (KFOR). 3,000 are from the USA, almost all the others are from the EU.

The US was massively involved on the ground in Kosovo until very recently. Its nice to know people haven't forgotten where their fighting men and women are and what they have been up to in the past few years.

[cannon_fodder]

si_uk_lon_ok:

According to the latest source I could find (Feb a, 2008) we have 1,456 non-combat peace keepers in Kosovo and another 200 next door in Bosnia - both remnants of the Clinton years.  
http://www.nato.int/kfor/structur/nations/placemap/kfor_placemap.pdf

No offense to the 1456 US personnel there, but 1,456 non-combat troops does not really constitute a level of involvement of the United States.  We are part of the NATO force that is in place under NATO command, with Germany, France and Italy all having much larger forces than the US.  Even though the Joint Commander is a U.S. Admiral, it is a NATO force receiving a minimal level of US support.
By most accounts this is an event NOT dominated by US involvement.  That is the point.  Not to belittle the 1500 Americans that are involved.

If interesting, here is the KFOR HQ (NATO Kosovo Command) website:
http://www.nato.int/kfor/index.html

[edit]Off topic discussion removed[/edit]

[si_uk_lon_ok]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

si_uk_lon_ok:

According to the latest source I could find (Feb a, 2008) we have 1,456 non-combat peace keepers in Kosovo and another 200 next door in Bosnia - both remnants of the Clinton years.  
http://www.nato.int/kfor/structur/nations/placemap/kfor_placemap.pdf

No offense to the 1456 US personnel there, but 1,456 non-combat troops does not really constitute a level of involvement of the United States.  We are part of the NATO force that is in place under NATO command, with Germany, France and Italy all having much larger forces than the US.  Even though the Joint Commander is a U.S. Admiral, it is a NATO force receiving a minimal level of US support. Which is why I said:

quote:The United State is generally on the sidelines as we are over extended and not really involved

instead of saying we are on the sidelines and no involved (note qualifying language).  

We've got a hat in the ring, but not the extend that we do in Iraq or Afghanistan.  For that matter we have more troops in Germany, Japan, the UK, South Korea, Italy, Turkey, Belgium, Bahrain, Cuba, and Spain.  Or anywhere one of our Aircraft Carriers currently resides.

By most accounts this is an event NOT dominated by US involvement.  That is the point.  Not to belittle the 1500 Americans that are involved.

If interesting, here is the KFOR HQ (NATO Kosovo Command) website:
http://www.nato.int/kfor/index.html

Thats clever change the original post after I've commented on it.

That way you don't look like a dumbass.

You started the post with no knowledge of Kosovo, said things may get 'interesting' and indicated you have some knowledge. I know you had no idea what was happening as you said NATO might get involved when they are.

You aren't fooling anyone..

[cannon_fodder]

[edit]Off topic discussion removed[/edit]

[si_uk_lon_ok]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I changed nothing.  You misread or are otherwise currently mis-categorizing what I posted.  I did not mention NATO and certainly used qualifying language.   While I knew there was NATO and US involvement in Serbia and Kosovo, I readily admit I did not know the exact numbers as I do now.  My increased knowledge only serves to further support my above contention.

If you edit a post it puts "edited by" at the bottom of the post.  I will edit my previous post to illustrate this. (I stand corrected, see below)

To repeat myself:

I changed nothing.

I do not appreciate your accusation of dishonesty nor the underlying accusation that I don't care about U.S. troops.  I can't prove that I did not change it (ADMIN, can we please set it up to indicate changes to posts?) so feel free to make up any accusations you want.  But the fact remains that I did NOT change the post.

Do you have any actual disagreement with me on these matters or... what's your point?


[edit] I stand corrected, it does NOT insert the edited text on these forums.  Nonetheless, I did not alter the post in spite of your accusations.[/edit]

You quite clearly did change the very first post then referenced your new found knowledge in your reply you me.

You did not NATO was involved because in a quote of yours, now edited out, but still in one of my points, you mention NATO may get involved. When they are involved.

You are a total weasel, this entire thread has been cut and changed, edited and deleted to make you look less dumb. Welcome to my ignore list.

[cannon_fodder]

[edit]Off topic discussion removed[/edit]

[cannon_fodder]

[edit]Off topic discussion removed[/edit]

[si_uk_lon_ok]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

si:

Where you referring to this quote:

quote:Heh, so true. I think we might have been involved anyway with low troops levels or logistics if we weren't a little busy elsewhere. We may still provide logistical support if NATO gets involved.

But I had to use the "some damn thing in the Balakans" subject line. Not a quote you get to use often.

That quote remains above.  It was NOT in my original post but in a reply.  Perhaps that is why you missed it.

I don't care that you disagree with me nor that you "called me out" on my lack of knowledge on the operation.  I posted a quip and then researched it more fully to respond to you as discussed above.  

I'm guessing you recalled that quote and thought I edited it out my original.  Sry I'm a little worked up, but I've never been accused of such a thing on this website nor do I recall having an issue with you in the past so I'm a bit bewildered.

[edit]Re-reading the thread you even quoted that part.  That must be what you're thinking so I'll assume so and await your PM reply.  If not, I did a poor job editing as I left the alleged offending reference in place - unless I edited it back in and edited your post to include it.[/edit]

Ok, I haven't ignored anyone, truth be told I'm not sure how to do it.

The reason I snapped and got mad is because a thread should read from the top (oldest) to the bottom (newest) changing things in the middle is a bit dishonest in my book (and that might just be me in which I case I need to get over it). Now I have no problem with you cannon fodder, and I'm sorry I called you a dumbass, but people have done this to me before and it really annoys me. I also thought I had experienced this problem with you before which I haven't, and was mad at myself for not replying with quote to prevent it.

I have no problem with people inserting facts into the debate, but I think its fair to put it in order. I also think if you go away and find something out it should go at the bottom, not before other peoples responses. I have no problem with what you're posted now, because what is now on there is materially different to what was on there originally.

[cannon_fodder]

Thank you for reconsidering, but I believe we are still having some miscommunication.

Please look at post # 6 in this thread, in which you quote the my entire answer to Inteller.  Thus establishing that as of 10:32 that is definitively what was there.  I believe you recalled the NATO line from this as it was never in the original (first) post.

I agree that changes should not be made without indication and have Pm'd the Admin to see if such a change could be made [edit]Woot!  Changes have been made[/edit].  I appreciate your concerns, but rest assured I have changed nothing in this thread nor previous threads without indication unless I notice and change it immediately after posting.
- - -

Per the facts, I did not intend to manifest myself as an expert on the subject.  I merely noticed that nothing had been said about this significant event and wanted to get some opinions.  I was not as aware of the extent of US operations nor NATO involvement as you were/are.  Subsequently I looked up significant information and shared the sources of it to facilitate more accurate discussions.

Sorry if it came off confrontational.  I stand better educated on the subject because of your points, so thank you.  Let me know when you have read this and I will edit out my distractions from this page.
- - - - -

Back to the show!

The United State's has official recognized the independence of Kosovo, along with France and Britain:

http://www.state.gov/secretary/rm/2008/02/100973.htm

quote:Secretary Condoleezza Rice
Washington, DC
February 18, 2008

The United States has today formally recognized Kosovo as a sovereign and independent state. We congratulate the people of Kosovo on this historic occasion.

President Bush has responded affirmatively to a request from Kosovo to establish diplomatic relations between our two countries. The establishment of these relations will reaffirm the special ties of friendship that have linked together the people of the United States and Kosovo.

Nine years ago, the international community, led by NATO, acted to end brutal attacks on the Kosovar Albanian population. This timely international intervention ended the violence, leading to a United Nations Security Council decision to suspend Belgrade's governance and place Kosovo under interim UN administration. Since that time Kosovo has built its own democratic institutions separate from Belgrade's control. Last year, UN Special Envoy Martti Ahtisaari developed a plan to build a democratic and multi-ethnic Kosovo and recommended Kosovo be independent, subject to a period of international supervision. In light of the conflicts of the 1990s, independence is the only viable option to promote stability in the region. The United States supports the Ahtisaari Plan and will work with its international partners to help implement it.

We welcome the commitments Kosovo made in its declaration of independence to implement the Ahtisaari Plan, to embrace multi-ethnicity as a fundamental principle of good governance, and to welcome a period of international supervision.

The unusual combination of factors found in the Kosovo situation -- including the context of Yugoslavia's breakup, the history of ethnic cleansing and crimes against civilians in Kosovo, and the extended period of UN administration -- are not found elsewhere and therefore make Kosovo a special case. Kosovo cannot be seen as a precedent for any other situation in the world today.

The United States takes this opportunity to reaffirm our friendship with Serbia, an ally during two world wars. We invite Serbia's leaders to work together with the United States and our partners to accomplish shared goals, such as the protection of the rights, security, culture and livelihood of the Serb community in Kosovo.

As Kosovo today begins its life as an independent state, the United States pledges to continue to be its close friend and partner.

[Breadburner]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

There is no oil there and no prez getting his dick sucked needs a diversion so Kosovo is on their own this time.

Lmao...Classic yet simple...heh...