Slum houses of Elgin

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

You live at 101st and Memorial. Could there be some cross culturalization going on here? Perhaps the owners of this slum house could chime in on what to do with the development on your corner?

How does the plight of most of downtown any different than these two properties? Most have out of date styling, are more valuable as parking than their original use, sit vacant, for sale but over priced, suffer probable encroachment, are unappreciated by the burbs, and sport out of town owners. One difference is it doesn't have the graffiti that the Tulsa Club building has.

After you invest 90k to buy them, 10k on failed rehab efforts, you have a 100k parking lot that has to offer roadway access to the Catholic widows colony next door diminishing the number of parking spaces to about a dozen. If they go for $40 a month at 100% occupancy thats $480 a month. Will that cover your mortgage, taxes and maintenance?

cross culturization?  i dont follow what you are implying.

[cannon_fodder]

If I thought it was a good investment I'd snatch it up and rehab it.  I love strange houses in downtown areas and I imagine someone would love living in one.  However, the sea of pavement that the neighborhood as become do well to take away from any appeal it may have.

I've come to hate surface parking.  If anyone wants to buy it to rehab I'd be in for $1000 for fun.  Junior partner, anyone? []

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

If I thought it was a good investment I'd snatch it up and rehab it.  I love strange houses in downtown areas and I imagine someone would love living in one.  However, the sea of pavement that the neighborhood as become do well to take away from any appeal it may have.

I've come to hate surface parking.  If anyone wants to buy it to rehab I'd be in for $1000 for fun.  Junior partner, anyone? []

I'll junior partner too.  Depending on the rehab plan I can spare a few grand.  Sparks has to come WAY down on his price though.  He is dreaming like all the other old fogies holding on to DT properties thinking they can make out like bandits.

[waterboy]

I believe Sparks is a woman. At least that's who i talked to. I may just take you all up on junior partnerships. I think there is more than an old dump there and though the challenge is great it would get tremendous pr and goodwill from downtown supporters.

For some reason, the good Lord put me in a position to amble among disparate classes seamlessly. I go from discussing Dog the Bounty hunter and the maintenance of a '96 Buick to the Puritans having been high on spoiled grain and stupid from lead dinnerware. From how Clemens is lying but Canseco is an donkey to how PSA's are controversial in the medical community. From people who know the difference in brush hogs to those who know the thin line between integrity and fraud.  You guys aren't in the same culture as the longtime owner of a downtown property, his tax considerations, his choices, his needs. You take your culture of investment real estate, development savvy and legal knowledge then apply it to people in really different circumstances. They don't care about all the things you have pointed out. Someone they respect told them they're sitting on a "gold mine". They are more scared of losing the mine or selling it too cheap than making it a useful mine. You guys don't think like they do but...its their property and serves their needs. I don't know if Sparks fits that description, he/she may be a real player, but thats what i mean by "cross culturalization". You assume they just don't have the benefit of your  superior culture of business. FWIW they do the same to you.

I know CF is a midtown lawyer, and Inteller is a politics 'burbanite. What's your hood 'Ric?

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Someone they respect told them they're sitting on a "gold mine".

yes, and that is the problem.  That same person tells all of the people downtown the same thing.  That person is stupid.  I bet I could guess that person off a short list of the stupid old money ****s here in Tulsa.

[EricP]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy
I know CF is a midtown lawyer, and Inteller is a politics 'burbanite. What's your hood 'Ric?

Assuming that's me.... Broken Arrow livin' downtown code writin' computer nerd My problem with these people that wait 20 years trying to find that magical offer while their property falls into disrepair is this:

Can of paint: $15. Paintbrush: $1. Nails: $2. Hammer: $5. Scrap wood: available laying around property. Fix your s***. If you need help, ask.

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by EricP
My problem with these people that wait 20 years trying to find that magical offer while their property falls into disrepair is this:

that pretty much sums up all property holders inside the IDL.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

quote:Originally posted by EricP
My problem with these people that wait 20 years trying to find that magical offer while their property falls into disrepair is this:

that pretty much sums up all property holders inside the IDL.

I came across this kind of behavior when i was restoring old cars. Some guy would have a '64 Corvair 4 door rust bucket with oil seeping on the garage floor. Nothing valuable about it except as a repository for parts but no, ITS A CLASSIC! MY DAD BOUGHT IT NEW! Someone would tell him not to let it go cheap cause they're selling for thousands on the West coast. So they'd put an Earl Sheib two tone turquoise paint job on the heap and advertise it for $5500 FIRM! Hard to talk to them once the "gold mine" mentality solidifies.

[si_uk_lon_ok]

Maybe the city should consider flipping the tax code.

James Kunstler encouraged the idea of not a property tax, but a land tax. That would encourage the economic response of land owners to intensify land use which would benefit the city. It would also hit all the people who are sitting on land and waiting for it to be worth something with a massive tax bill and encourage them to dump the property onto the market and let people who want to develop the land get their hands on the property or actually develop it themselves.

[booWorld]

quote:Originally posted by DScott28604

Last March, I (along with two other TN forum users) looked for these houses on the historic Sanborn maps on the Tulsa City-County Library's website.

We made the following guesses based on what we found on the Sanborn maps:

1.  The house on the north (on the left in the photo) was built at (or moved to) the southeast corner of Sixth and Elgin before August 1907.  It faced north toward Sixth Street.  Sometime between 1907 and 1915, the house was rotated to face Elgin and was moved approximately 50 feet to the south to its current location.

2.  The house on the south (on the right in the photo) was built at (or moved to) its current location between August 1907 and May 1911.  

[music_artist]

$175K? Thanks for the tip!

[Kenosha]

"Old" isn't enough of a qualification to deem something "historic", IMO.  Downtown, even in its hey day was littered with various types of residential...unfortunately the IDL cut off the oxygen for most of the owner occupied type residences, so we are left with a few homes that are old, but have generally been screwed up over the years; either with awkward additions, deferred maintenance issues, or they have been subdivided into individual apartments.  It would take a particularly philanthropic type to tackle one of these for rehab, and because in most cases one would be totally redoing these houses, the chances of a true historic rehab is unlikely. More likely these homes would get new drywall, hardyboard siding, MDF casing and trim, cheap kitchen and bathroom cabinets and fixtures, hollow doors, new paint and a cheap roof.  Sure, it makes it habitable, but is it really going to inspire new reinvestment on the empty lot next to it?  I know it is not popular, but sometimes in these situations wiping the slate clean is necessary for the greater goal, which is to provide vibrancy, opportunity, and new life into our old downtown.

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Kenosha

"Old" isn't enough of a qualification to deem something "historic", IMO.  Downtown, even in its hey day was littered with various types of residential...unfortunately the IDL cut off the oxygen for most of the owner occupied type residences, so we are left with a few homes that are old, but have generally been screwed up over the years; either with awkward additions, deferred maintenance issues, or they have been subdivided into individual apartments.  It would take a particularly philanthropic type to tackle one of these for rehab, and because in most cases one would be totally redoing these houses, the chances of a true historic rehab is unlikely. More likely these homes would get new drywall, hardyboard siding, MDF casing and trim, cheap kitchen and bathroom cabinets and fixtures, hollow doors, new paint and a cheap roof.  Sure, it makes it habitable, but is it really going to inspire new reinvestment on the empty lot next to it?  I know it is not popular, but sometimes in these situations wiping the slate clean is necessary for the greater goal, which is to provide vibrancy, opportunity, and new life into our old downtown.

Thats a very thin line you're drawing. Sure if a rehab is done badly it isn't worth the effort. But I think those same arguments can always be made about "old" vs "historical". Brookside is old. How is it historical? For that matter very few homes in Maple Ridge are historical. Most are merely big, old and good examples of the building styles of the period. The terms "craftsman cottage" and "bungalow" seem designed to have justified their continued existence when "cramped" and "functionally obsolete" would be just as accurate. I just like old houses for what they are. Disappearing examples of how life was a century ago. The one on the south is similar to my neighbors home that was moved from the downtown area to the Southside addition by Lee School in the 20's. It is perfect for a young couple or single and has been improved by each successive owner till it now is quite pretty and worth 5 times its 1980 selling price. Odd that many new homes emulate these plain styles and charge extra for the period look.

One also wonders how wiping the slate clean downtown to this point has added to its vibrancy and opportunity. Well, opportunity for more parking anyway.

[Kenosha]

For the record, I wasn't talking about urban renewal for urban renewal's sake. What I was implying was if some of these structures made way for a specific, larger urban solution (in downtown), I could live with that.  As far as our historic districts are concerned, I certainly agree that it is the combined character of the homes as opposed to a single structure that defines the historic designation. It is a clear distinction, and an important one.