An editorial about Tulsa in the Oklahoman

[cannon_fodder]

OKC Pulse,

Certainly you realize that there are 5 ways to get into Oklahoma city on major roads for free, there are zero ways to get in to Tulsa on a major road for free.   We are forced to pay for our roads with tolls, meanwhile, your roads are paid for by governmental funds.  If you fail to see a disparity in that then I question your observations.

Likewise, how many public hospitals are in Tulsa?

Tulsa is treated like the whining little sister we were described as.  OKC has done well building itself up, kudos.  But part of that has been the 25% of residents that depend on government jobs and other subsidies Tulsa has paid in - so when someone pretends that is not a factor I take exception to it.  Look at the flow of money in to the state and then look at the flow of money out... it's easy to see which community benefits.  We aren't talking about Tulsa Public Schools, jobs mostly paid for by the community... these are jobs that bring money from other parts of the State (and nation) in to Oklahoma City.

That and I'm still pissed that I'm subsidizing your NBA team.  Which I imagine will only get more and more state money.

So to reiterate, I'm not bitter that Oklahoma City is doing well - but I do resent the fact that I am in part paying for it and that fact is being denied.

[PonderInc]

"The Oklahoman" is a strangely bush-league paper for such a large city.  The writing in this opinion piece sounds like something out of a high school paper or blog (or the O'Reilly Factor!) than the editorial page of a professional news organization.

"We choose to put up with this sniveling..."

"Envy is one of the seven deadly sins. In Tulsa it's a default setting."

Huh?  Did they just SAY that?

I glance at "The Oklahoman" every couple weeks.  It makes me appreciate the Tulsa World.  By comparison to the OKC rag, the TW is the Washington Post!

[Breadburner]

Okc Sucks.....

[Johnboy976]

Kudos to OKC for kicking it up a notch and moving forward. Kudos to OKC for acquiring a pro team. But they truly forget that Tulsa has always been self-sustaining. Yes, that has created some problems for us (because we need to grow), but it has also given Tulsa a personality that OKC seems to lack. It's rare to hear from an outsider what they think of the people of OKC. It's simply that there's something to do in the town. However, when talking about Tulsa, it's the people of Tulsa that they remember. They're nice, hospitable and down-to-earth. That's what I've always heard.

[sauerkraut]

OKC has alot of gov't workers because it's the Catital of the state. OKC is doing alot of work building a system of jogging trails. They have a nice 10 mile jogging trail around Lake Hefner and are working on plans to connect it to other areas of the city. OKC is also one of the largest land area cities in the USA the only other big city in land area is Jacksonville FL.[8D]

[sauerkraut]

I understand OKC and Tulsa are big rival cities. If one city  does something the other city has to out it. I heard that is why Tulsa buried a Plymouth car in 1957 to out do a time capsule that OKC did. The cities of Dallas & Fort Worth are big Rival cities too they can't stand each other. Fort-Worth boasts it's wild cowtown image and Dallas boasts it's gleaming Skyscrapers and oil money. They are often at each others throat. I know because I lived in Fort Worth, and when I moved to Arlington, Texas (the "mid-cities" area) I was caught in the middle of the feud. That is why the D/FW airport was built in the middle of the MetroPlex, each city wanted the airport in their town. I understand the TwinCities of MN. also feud alot (St. paul & Minnapolis)It's ruff living like that.[][xx(]

[swake]

I would not paint the entire city as having the venom for Tulsa seen in this editorial. But, I certainly would have to think that this is the view of the Gaylord family who own the Oklahoman.
I will again note that one of the Gaylord daughters also happens to be married to the man who owns the Sonics, who, according to the NBA, are so dependant on Tulsans to buy tickets and watch games on TV to make an NBA team viable in Oklahoma City.  And it was the power of the Gaylords that got that state tax funding for the Sonics. The hypocrisy here is what is really shocking. The very same family that would publish this editorial is at the same time begging for our support and grabbing our tax money for their NBA team

It's this kind of sentiment that Tulsa is up against in everything we need passed at the state level. "Oh, please help us, but shut up and don't ask for anything in return." There is no real spirit of cooperation from these people and they are very powerful in state government.

If you want proof look at all the free Interstate highways coming into Tulsa, try to find that mythical four year public college in Tulsa. Try to ride a train out of Tulsa. Look at the condition of our highways. Look at the I-44 widening project now entering it's third decade with no end in sight. But by God the Crosstown highway in Oklahoma City is going to be done on time so there's more land to help redevelop downtown Oklahoma City.

It's downright criminal.

[cannon_fodder]

1st - OKC has government jobs as the State capital, but in other State's those jobs are more spread out.  The "second cities" often get a nod with a branch office.  OKC also enjoys federal jobs at a disproportional level.  Nearly 25% of jobs are governmental jobs, a very high percentage.  I'm not *really* complaining about those jobs, but to pretend they aren't helping the city is obtuse.

2nd - It is not tough living as a rival city, it is essential.  Preferably both cities will become better trying to out do the other (not copying).  We can see what works and what doesn't and adopt those things that are best.  We can compete on many levels and cooperate when it is in our interests.  That's why so many competing cities prosper.

Without OKC down the turnpike with a revitalized downtown and a shiny new arena, do you think Tulsan's would even realize what kind of potential we are missing out on?

Which is why I wish OKC the best.  If they wanted to become the next big thing I'd be glad to lap up their scraps, so long as Tulsa is better off at the end of the day.  BUT, as I pointed out, it's when OKC improves at the cost of Tulsa that I get upset.

[okcpulse]

quote: If you want proof look at all the free Interstate highways coming into Tulsa, try to find that mythical four year public college in Tulsa. Try to ride a train out of Tulsa. Look at the condition of our highways. Look at the I-44 widening project now entering it's third decade with no end in sight. But by God the Crosstown highway in Oklahoma City is going to be done on time so there's more land to help redevelop downtown Oklahoma City.

I do agree with you about the unlevel playing field between Tulsa and Oklahoma City when it comes to tax dollars.  But do not, I repeat, do not use the Crosstown Bridge against us.  Is I-44 in Tulsa on the brink of collapse?

I encourage you to drive the Crosstown Bridge.  Heck, walk under it sometime.  Be sure and wear a hard hat because you will find a few pieces of concrete falling here and there.  All it takes is one pylon, just one, and the entire two-mile bridge will collapse.  And this bridge is beyond rehab.  Not to mention the number of potential deaths on a heavily traveled bridge... 130,000 vehicles a day.

But I guess it will take another Minneapolis episode to get people to realize the seriousness.  This country has always been good at being reactive instead of proactive.

[Hoss]

quote:Originally posted by okcpulse

quote: If you want proof look at all the free Interstate highways coming into Tulsa, try to find that mythical four year public college in Tulsa. Try to ride a train out of Tulsa. Look at the condition of our highways. Look at the I-44 widening project now entering it's third decade with no end in sight. But by God the Crosstown highway in Oklahoma City is going to be done on time so there's more land to help redevelop downtown Oklahoma City.

I do agree with you about the unlevel playing field between Tulsa and Oklahoma City when it comes to tax dollars.  But do not, I repeat, do not use the Crosstown Bridge against us.  Is I-44 in Tulsa on the brink of collapse?

I encourage you to drive the Crosstown Bridge.  Heck, walk under it sometime.  Be sure and wear a hard hat because you will find a few pieces of concrete falling here and there.  All it takes is one pylon, just one, and the entire two-mile bridge will collapse.  And this bridge is beyond rehab.  Not to mention the number of potential deaths on a heavily traveled bridge... 130,000 vehicles a day.

But I guess it will take another Minneapolis episode to get people to realize the seriousness.  This country has always been good at being reactive instead of proactive.

If you do some research on the state of I-44 in Tulsa, you'll see that I-244 where it crosses over the Arkansas River is in a horrible state of disrepair.  Do some searches on the Whirled website regarding chunks of concrete falling off bridges in Tulsa and you'll find no less than two articles in the past year.

I-44 at the bend (the transition where it runs southwest to it's transitioning to a more westerly route) is dangerous, and has been documented as such.  Why has half of I-44 in Tulsa been completed for nearly 10 years, but this section has yet to see any dirt turn other than the eminent domain buyouts for preparation?

You guys complain of us have elitist attitudes, but Tulsa's the one that gets passed over like the red-headed stepchild (not you specifically OKCPulse, I've seen several OKC natives complain about that.  Can Tulsa help it as to how we evolved?)

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Is I-44 in Tulsa on the brink of collapse?

Yes!  The section slated for renewal is very well worn.

So is I-244.  There was an article in the paper just a couple days ago about I-244 bridges hanging on by a thread.

Some of the downtown bridges are so bad we aren't even allowed to WALK on them anymore.

412 out of Tulsa (Until it becomes a toll) and 75 out of town would both be better off gravel.

And then roads in general, argh!  The 25% additional rain we get coupled with the extreme weather shifts do a number on our roads.  I'm sure you can relate (I realize this is more of a local issues, but still on topic).

I think we can agree that we have been funding pet projects while letting some priorities rot away in this state in general.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by okcpulse

quote: If you want proof look at all the free Interstate highways coming into Tulsa, try to find that mythical four year public college in Tulsa. Try to ride a train out of Tulsa. Look at the condition of our highways. Look at the I-44 widening project now entering it's third decade with no end in sight. But by God the Crosstown highway in Oklahoma City is going to be done on time so there's more land to help redevelop downtown Oklahoma City.

I do agree with you about the unlevel playing field between Tulsa and Oklahoma City when it comes to tax dollars.  But do not, I repeat, do not use the Crosstown Bridge against us.  Is I-44 in Tulsa on the brink of collapse?

I encourage you to drive the Crosstown Bridge.  Heck, walk under it sometime.  Be sure and wear a hard hat because you will find a few pieces of concrete falling here and there.  All it takes is one pylon, just one, and the entire two-mile bridge will collapse.  And this bridge is beyond rehab.  Not to mention the number of potential deaths on a heavily traveled bridge... 130,000 vehicles a day.

But I guess it will take another Minneapolis episode to get people to realize the seriousness.  This country has always been good at being reactive instead of proactive.

You want to compare the condition of the Crosstown to I-44? There have been multiple reports of concrete giving way on I-44 too, I-44 has worse congestion (due to it's only being four lanes) and the section of I-44 from the Arkansas to Harvard has been called, by ODOT, the most dangerous stretch of highway in the state.

The Crosstown could have been redecked or replaced in it's current path for a fraction of the cost of what is being done. I-44 started it's "five year" widening project 20 years before the Crosstown and will likely be completed a decade later. The Crosstown project is substantially a downtown rehab project for Oklahoma City. We all know it.

And I-44 is not the only pressing need in Tulsa. How about the fact that the I-244 bridge over the Arkansas is rated substantially lower that the Crosstown? If the Crosstown was SO pressing then why does the lowest rated large interstate bridge in the state have NO plans for replacement at all? That bridge is the mile long I-244 bridge over the Arkansas.

And that's not the worst Interstate bridge in Tulsa. There is a bridge over I-244 downtown so bad that the fire station located right next to it is not allowed to use it.

There is a danger of another Minneapolis, but that danger is in Tulsa, not on the Crosstown in Oklahoma City.

Nice rhetoric though.

[TulsaSue]

Ha. When I was the eitor of "The Northeastern" many years ago, we had a campaign to succeed Green Country from Oklahoma.  I still agree.

We currently have a lake house near Tenkiller Lake and the other day The Oklahoman called to try to sell us a subscription! I was shocked. They're trying to spread their posion across the state. Without being rude to the sales person, I expressed our disgust at the newspaper.

We lived in Edmond for a time and took that paper, but ended up cancelling our subscription. It was too hard on our blood pressure.

And we know of at least one huge businessman in OKC who has "Tulsa Envy" really badly and would do almost anything to tip the scales toward OKC.  I won't name him here.

Tulsans, we have to save ourselves and quit voting down issues like the River Tax.  Tulsa is a great city, but she needs our support.  OKC is a horrible place to live.

Thank goodness we have George Kaiser, though.  We're very lucky there.

[cannon_fodder]

I can not and will not comment on OKC being a "horrible place to live."  It is apperent some people like it there and I can find good things about the city.  So lets not turn this into a "they suck"  no "you suck" thread.

But I agree Tulsa has to stand on it's own legs if it was to prosper.

[okcpulse]

quote: The Crosstown could have been redecked or replaced in it's current path for a fraction of the cost of what is being done.

I disagree.  A federal engineering study in the 1990s estimated it would cost $100 million more to rebuild the Crosstown Bridge in its place.  Redecking won't do any good.  The structure itself is too far out of date.  We're talking about a bridge completed in 1967.

The stretch of I-44 in Tulsa is ground level, so how can it collapse?  It IS the most dangerous stretch of Interstate in Oklahoma and is WAY over-congested.  I blame the state for dragging their feet on this one.  

But again, a collapsing bridge to me is more of a concern.  The Crosstown was supposed to be completed in 2009.  Its completion date has been pushed back to 2012.

Broadway Extension in Oklahoma City had to wait for the Broken Arrow Expressway expansion to be completed before expansion could even begin on Broadway.

Now I would have a huge problem if Oklahoma City got the state to pay for the new downtown boulevard that will be built in place of the old Crosstown Bridge path.  But OKC is footing the bill on that one.

I would also imagine that rebuild or redecking the bridge would cost more in maintenance long term than the current plan to built the new three mile stretch at ground level, which requires less maintenance and inspections.