OKC Says goodbye to a highway!

[PonderInc]

Are you considering moving to Detroit?

I'm pretty sure Tulsa is not anywhere near the top of the dangerous cities list.

[TulsaFan-inTexas]

So Tulsa is one of the most dangerous cities in the nation? That's news to me.

Here's what Dallas has to say... [}:)]

[okcpulse]

quote: yes, but unfortunately our money is going to pay for OKC to do it.

Ehh, if you can't fight 'em, join 'em.

Yes, we are pumped about our new $557 million 4-mile stretch of freeway, due to open in 2012.  We are also pumped about our soon-to-be under construction $70 million multilevel interchange at I-35/ I-240 and our other $60 million multilevel interchange at I-235/ I-44.

We'll let you know when we're through playing Sim City, then we'll hand over the game.  Thanks for the cheat code

[waterboy]

Yeah, that Tulsa is a dangerous city. I can't believe you take the risk to do business or work here. Brave soul you are. You judged the whole city and its school system on a relatives experience at Rogers. Egad.

I once had bad fish in BA but I forgave them and still visit Bass Pro. I was a salesman in BA and was once stopped by a policeman for no reason other than to explain why I was in their city. But once again I made no judgments. Bask in the illusion of your safe city while you suckle off the milk of ours.

[bugo]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc
I think that symbolically, the north part of the IDL has to go.  Functionally, I look at the whole loop, and it makes absolutely no sense to me.  I believe those stories that say that our expressway system was designed by a couple guys drawing on a napkin.  The IDL is that silly and thoughtless.  It had a disasterous impact on downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods.

What would happen if you got rid of the IDL completely?  What if rail connected downtown to the bedroom communities?  What if people just had to slow down and drive through or around downtown?  Would it be the end of the world, or a new beginnging for downtown?

There would be tons more pollution because of cars sitting in traffic, and much gasoline would be wasted.  And nobody would ride the rail, mass transit is for Northeasterners, not maverick Okies.

As far as the IDL, I think it is aesthetically appealing in its own way.  I'm a highway buff, and driving north on 444/75 towards 244/412 through that interchange is awesome.  And check it out on an aerial photo website sometime.  Those weird little ramps that connect the IDL to downtown streets are cool looking.

Speaking of downtown, what's up with the name "Heavy Traffic Way?"  Who came up with that?

[bugo]

quote:Originally posted by okcpulse

quote: yes, but unfortunately our money is going to pay for OKC to do it.

Ehh, if you can't fight 'em, join 'em.

Yes, we are pumped about our new $557 million 4-mile stretch of freeway, due to open in 2012.  We are also pumped about our soon-to-be under construction $70 million multilevel interchange at I-35/ I-240 and our other $60 million multilevel interchange at I-235/ I-44.

We'll let you know when we're through playing Sim City, then we'll hand over the game.  Thanks for the cheat code

All the cloverleaf interchanges in Tulsa are embarassing.  Most midsized cities in the region do not have nearly as many cloverleaf interchanges.  Little Rock for example has one cloverleaf in the entire metro area (I-630 at I-430) and AHTD is planning to replace it in a few years.  And yes, it is a terrible chokepoint, probably the worst in the city.  

[bugo]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

I wonder what the daily traffic statistics show about the IDL?  What percent of the traffic on it is "passing through" and how much is headed for a job in downtown?  

2005 AADT (the most recent year that I have data for:

north leg, I-244: 62500
east leg, I-444: 41000
south leg, I-244: 45700
west leg, I-244: 62800

Another consequence would be that thru traffic from the Keystone Expressway, the Cherokee Expressway as well as both legs of I-244 would have to dump onto downtown area streets, not to mention the Osage Expressway (Tisdale) which will one day connect to the Gilcrease and form a nice alternative from downtown to the airport.

You could say reroute the traffic, but where to?  There is no alternative for traffic on US 412 (High Priority Corridor , which is a major corridor and will only get busier in the future when Arkansas, Missouri and Tennessee get through 4 laning it .  This road will make a great shortcut from I-40 in Jackson, TN to I-35 north of Perry.  There is also no good alternative for US 75 traffic, or for many "movements" (e.g. NB 75 to WB 412).  A completed Gilcrease Expressway would provide alternatives for some of the traffic, but that road will likely not be completed anytime soon.  And the entire road would have to be upgraded to AT LEAST 8 lanes to handle all that extra traffic.

Here are some traffic counts for the roads that lead into the IDL.  Some of the counts were taken a few miles from downtown, so traffic could enter and exit the freeway in between the traffic count points and downtown.  I have noted the points where the traffic counts were taken:

US 75 North: 34000 (between Pine and Apache)
I-244/US 412 East: 67700 (between Yale and Sheridan)
US 64/OK 51 east: 84200 (between Yale and Sheridan)
I-244 West/US 75 South: 64470 (between 23rd and the IDL/I-444)
US 64/412/OK 51 West: 48700 (between Gilcrease Museum Road and Quanah Ave)

Conspicuous by its absence is the Osage/Tisdale Expy.  I assume this road is maintained by the city.  Was it built by ODOT?  It will most likely become part of the state highway system once the next leg of the Gilcrease is complete.  I wonder if ODOT built it with the intention of it becoming a state highway but made a deal with the city to maintain it indefinitely until the road connects to another state highway to the north.


Do we really want all this extra traffic downtown?  Granted some of the traffic would alter their routes, but nevertheless this would put an incredible strain on the streets in and around the downtown area.  This is a terrible idea and could cripple the local economy.

A more pressing problem is the truck traffic on I-44.  I drive it often, and the trucks almost make the road unusable.  My modest proposal would be to ban through trucks from I-44 between I-244 and OK 51, and to require all through trucks to follow the Creek Turnpike.   There is absolutely NO reason through truck traffic should be using I-44, at least until the reconstruction is finished, when that nice 4 lane tollway is there.  It's a deathtrap.  I'm sure the OTA would love my idea.

Has anyone heard what number the Gilcrease will be getting when it is finally completed?  I would say sign the entire thing as I-844 and reroute Oklahoma 11 to follow the Osage/Tisdale south instead of following the Gilcrease past the airport.

Also, has anyone heard about a proposal to sign the Creek as an Interstate?  I heard something a few years back (I think it was in a transportation bill) but I haven't heard anything since.  The obvious number would be I-644.

[PonderInc]

When I look at the IDL, a part of me thinks: "Well, we obviously need this part or that part b/c how else could people get from point A to point B?"

But then I wonder if that's just the "curse of knowledge?"  It's what we know today, so we can't imagine any alternatives.  What we already take for granted makes other options seem impossible.  

All I'm saying is that none of those roads used to be there.  We built them...so do we have the power to tear them down?  Or have they taken on a life all their own that is beyond our power to control/determine?

When you zoom in small on a map, the IDL looks like it's critically important.  It looks like the obvious link between all points.  But if you zoom out wider and look at it from a macro scale...that's when you say "huh?"

The I-470 loop bypasses Denver by more than 10 miles.  Same with I-270 that skirts around St. Louis.  In Lexington, KY, Circle Drive loops around the city by at least a few miles....and sort of makes sense b/c all the historic roads are like spokes on a hub that terminate downtown. (They didn't have any "crosstown" expressways.)

In Tulsa, the IDL has a DIAMETER of about 1 mile.  So it has a radius of approx 1/2 mile from the center of downtown.  (How many golf strokes is that, anyway?)

I can't believe that highway "through" traffic can't be re-routed in some way that allows for a significant departure from this paradigm.  As for "destination downtown" traffic...well, ever heard of rail?

I don't pretend to know the answers.  Just asking questions to ponder...sort of "thinking outside the noose!"

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

When I look at the IDL, a part of me thinks: "Well, we obviously need this part or that part b/c how else could people get from point A to point B?"

But then I wonder if that's just the "curse of knowledge?"  It's what we know today, so we can't imagine any alternatives.  What we already take for granted makes other options seem impossible.  

All I'm saying is that none of those roads used to be there.  We built them...so do we have the power to tear them down?  Or have they taken on a life all their own that is beyond our power to control/determine?

When you zoom in small on a map, the IDL looks like it's critically important.  It looks like the obvious link between all points.  But if you zoom out wider and look at it from a macro scale...that's when you say "huh?"

The I-470 loop bypasses Denver by more than 10 miles.  Same with I-270 that skirts around St. Louis.  In Lexington, KY, Circle Drive loops around the city by at least a few miles....and sort of makes sense b/c all the historic roads are like spokes on a hub that terminate downtown. (They didn't have any "crosstown" expressways.)

In Tulsa, the IDL has a DIAMETER of about 1 mile.  So it has a radius of approx 1/2 mile from the center of downtown.  (How many golf strokes is that, anyway?)

I can't believe that highway "through" traffic can't be re-routed in some way that allows for a significant departure from this paradigm.  As for "destination downtown" traffic...well, ever heard of rail?

I don't pretend to know the answers.  Just asking questions to ponder...sort of "thinking outside the noose!"

The whole conversation regarding traffic...  
getting from point A to point B.. will undergo a rebirth with the opening of the Arena.

It should hi-light the planning and forethought that has gone into many issues...

"noose" you say...

what is that old saying..? "give a man enough asphalt and he'll pave his way to hell."
or something like that.