Tulsa Street Tax: Why Bother?

[1099paralegal]

By next year, oil will be $200/barrel.  Gas, $7/gal.  75% of the motorists on the road today will not be able to afford to drive.  

If the tax is not used for infrastructure to make public/private transit work, why bother with a street tax?  That's like rebuilding homes in Pitcher.  Throwing good money after bad.

[sgrizzle]

Mass transit will take years to improve. Even when we get light rail, people will still ride, drive or  bus to the train stations. I would say your argument would apply to widening, however. People will always use cars but I can see traffic growth slowing.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by 1099paralegal

By next year, oil will be $200/barrel.  Gas, $7/gal.  75% of the motorists on the road today will not be able to afford to drive.  

If the tax is not used for infrastructure to make public/private transit work, why bother with a street tax?  That's like rebuilding homes in Pitcher.  Throwing good money after bad.

Puleeze, most people could double, triple, or better, their gas mileage by simply getting a more fuel efficient car. Even if a lot more people were to stop using their cars as much, buses still use streets, rail cant go everywhere. I have been thinking about getting a scooter for short trips, errands and just cruising about mid-town...still need good streets for that as well.

I am all for better mass transit and spending less money on fuel. If you rely on the notion that we should do those things because of higher fuel prices, it wont work. May cause a temporary frenzy in a few people for a little while, but over all people will simply adapt in other ways, it wont make the change and you will be right back where you are now. There are better arguments for higher density, pedestrian friendly areas, and mass transit. Relying on a false premise, will only get you false results. I dont buy it,,, why should anyone else? You may fool a few people at first, "High oil prices! the sky is falling!Forget the roads, We need mass transit!" but its not a truly convincing or reliable strategy for getting what you want.

[Red Arrow]

If a person drives 15,000 mi/yr, the difference between 20 mpg and 40 mpg is 375 gal/yr. At $7.00/gallon, that is $2625/yr.  That won't buy much of a car. If you can, buy a car with better gas mileage because it is the right thing to do. Don't exepect it to pay for itself with better gas mileage unless you drive a LOT of miles per year.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by Red Arrow

If a person drives 15,000 mi/yr, the difference between 20 mpg and 40 mpg is 375 gal/yr. At $7.00/gallon, that is $2625/yr.  That won't buy much of a car. If you can, buy a car with better gas mileage because it is the right thing to do. Don't exepect it to pay for itself with better gas mileage unless you drive a LOT of miles per year.

Often a smaller, more fuel efficient car will cost less than say an Escalade or a Hummer,,, or even a Murano [8D]. So your monthly car payments may very well go down as well. Not to mention your insurance payment. Also, I have thought of getting a scooter, not to replace my car but to run errands, commute to work, my "Sunday drive" around town, etc. Could pay for itself in 3 or 4 years. Especially if gas prices go up even more. Not to mention they just look like fun. []  In either instance, your still using the roads.

[custosnox]

I've been wanting to get a motorcycle myself, and with the increasing gas prices, it seems to be getting more practicle.  Not to replace my SUV (sorry, got 4 kids, so it's either the SUV or a minivan, and I'm not doing the minivan thing), but like Artist says, cummute, errands, and actually to be able to afford to go out for a drive.  An initial investment of about 4K would pay for itself within two years.  Got thwarted on buying it this year, maybe next year.

[sauerkraut]

Oil at $200.00+ a barrel from what I hear will transform pump prices to $12.00 a gallon not $7.00 or so. At least that's the talk in the media- The gasoline pumps in use today only go up to $9.99 a gallon so many stations will have to install new pumps with more number capacity. The cost of installing new gasoline pumps will be passed on to the customers. A motorcycle can help but has drawbacks unless you live where it's warm & sunny alot, motorcycles are bad in rain, ice & snow and you can't carry much on them, a bag of food from the store is about it, you also can't take your whole family out on a vacation on one. I live in Ohio and a motorcycle can really be used only about 3 months of the year, the rest of time it's very cold, snowy or rainy.[B)]

[Red Arrow]

quote: TheArtist
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Often a smaller, more fuel efficient car will cost less than say an Escalade or a Hummer,,, or even a Murano . So your monthly car payments may very well go down as well. Not to mention your insurance payment. Also, I have thought of getting a scooter, not to replace my car but to run errands, commute to work, my "Sunday drive" around town, etc. Could pay for itself in 3 or 4 years. Especially if gas prices go up even more. Not to mention they just look like fun.  In either instance, your still using the roads.
-----------------------------------------------

I was thinking more of the people with an 8 to 10 year old mid priced vehicle. It may be paid off. The supply of used great gas mileage cars will dry up and folks will be forced to buy new. This will increase insurance costs and payments. The cost of new cars with great gas mileage will probably get a price boost as they did in the early 1980s. I remember a line added to the sticker on new car windows. Some dealers fessed up and called it "ADP", Additional Dealer Profit. People driving Hummers etc will probably not really need to worry much about the purchase price of a new smaller car. Some people have a real requirement for a large vehicle. Reasons vary. For them, a small efficient vehicle will be a second vehicle. A scooter is probably fun and cheap but I don't care for the safety issues.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

...commute to work...

You don't need a scooter to commute to work. That distance you can walk

[PonderInc]

Because of the lack of transit in Tulsa, many people drive more than 15,000 miles a year, and most families have more than one car (many families have a separate car for every person over the age of 16).

Remember, that the cost to operate a car involves more than just gas (which has tripled  in the past few years).  You're also paying for the cost of the car, depreciation of the car, insurance, cost of maintenance (tires, oil changes, alignment, tune-ups), car repairs, and...oh yeah...cost to build and repair the roads you drive on (local, state and federal taxes); as well as increased infrastructure costs to the community for spreading out support services over a sprawling area (more fire, more police, more utilities, etc).  

So, yeah.  Buy a scooter.  Scale down the hummer.  Get on your bike.

But be thinking of all these things as we begin talking about the comprehensive plan.  What does it take to make a city pedestrian and transit friendly?  Where can we strategically increase density?  How can we bring traditional mixed-use neighborhoods (instead of isolated suburban sprawl) back into style?

In 1920, Tulsa was the 19th most densely populated city in the nation.  Now, we're somewhere around 250...less densely populated than even Houston, if I remember correctly.

The current model is unsustainable (the roads package is just one manifestation of that).  It's time we  grow up and get serious about the future.

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

Because of the lack of transit in Tulsa, many people drive more than 15,000 miles a year, and most families have more than one car (many families have a separate car for every person over the age of 16).

Remember, that the cost to operate a car involves more than just gas (which has tripled  in the past few years).  You're also paying for the cost of the car, depreciation of the car, insurance, cost of maintenance (tires, oil changes, alignment, tune-ups), car repairs, and...oh yeah...cost to build and repair the roads you drive on (local, state and federal taxes); as well as increased infrastructure costs to the community for spreading out support services over a sprawling area (more fire, more police, more utilities, etc).  

So, yeah.  Buy a scooter.  Scale down the hummer.  Get on your bike.

But be thinking of all these things as we begin talking about the comprehensive plan.  What does it take to make a city pedestrian and transit friendly?  Where can we strategically increase density?  How can we bring traditional mixed-use neighborhoods (instead of isolated suburban sprawl) back into style?

In 1920, Tulsa was the 19th most densely populated city in the nation.  Now, we're somewhere around 250...less densely populated than even Houston, if I remember correctly.

The current model is unsustainable (the roads package is just one manifestation of that).  It's time we  grow up and get serious about the future.

yeah and in the 1950s TUlsa was only second to LA in cars per capita.

listen, this is a car town.  you can't get rid of the car culture.  The car will stay, it just needs to adapt.

[YoungTulsan]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

Because of the lack of transit in Tulsa, many people drive more than 15,000 miles a year, and most families have more than one car (many families have a separate car for every person over the age of 16).

Remember, that the cost to operate a car involves more than just gas (which has tripled  in the past few years).  You're also paying for the cost of the car, depreciation of the car, insurance, cost of maintenance (tires, oil changes, alignment, tune-ups), car repairs, and...oh yeah...cost to build and repair the roads you drive on (local, state and federal taxes); as well as increased infrastructure costs to the community for spreading out support services over a sprawling area (more fire, more police, more utilities, etc).  

So, yeah.  Buy a scooter.  Scale down the hummer.  Get on your bike.

But be thinking of all these things as we begin talking about the comprehensive plan.  What does it take to make a city pedestrian and transit friendly?  Where can we strategically increase density?  How can we bring traditional mixed-use neighborhoods (instead of isolated suburban sprawl) back into style?

In 1920, Tulsa was the 19th most densely populated city in the nation.  Now, we're somewhere around 250...less densely populated than even Houston, if I remember correctly.

The current model is unsustainable (the roads package is just one manifestation of that).  It's time we  grow up and get serious about the future.

yeah and in the 1950s TUlsa was only second to LA in cars per capita.

listen, this is a car town.  you can't get rid of the car culture.  The car will stay, it just needs to adapt.

We need more half-mile streets like Utica/Delaware 15th street 36th street etc.  Instead of a huge busy street every mile, smaller but more frequent streets would work better for both motorists and for walkability.  Go hang out at 31st and Utica and look how quaint the traffic is, even at 5PM.  This is thanks to the midtown area having those extra streets.  Unfortunately, many of the sprawl neighborhoods have been built to where it would be nearly impossible to retroactively cut across them with additional through streets.  In fact, that is their very design, to keep through-traffic and riffraff out of their neighborhoods.  But we suffer from these poorly designed street systems where a thousand people all dump out onto a street at one point.  And from there, we think we have a traffic problem that adding more lanes will somehow solve.  When you add more lanes, it just makes that street tougher to get on to.  Then people think the street is too dangerous to turn onto, so they get a traffic light added.  Before you know it, you have a 6 lane street with traffic lights every 600 feet, slowing things down even more. Crossing on foot is attempted suicide.

[waterboy]

That is very insightful. It is the numerous entrance/exits to the old neighborhoods that keeps traffic dissipated. It was the "cut through" streets they were trying to eliminate with the limited access neighborhoods out south. It backfired and causes bottlenecks that like you point out, results eventually in traffic signals.

[sauerkraut]

Alot of new housing developments have streets set out like a can of worms, curvy no way out but the way you came in, where as the older neighborhoods are build with straight streets that take you to main roads. I like the old way better.

[cannon_fodder]

We are reaching a point where oil prices will level off for the simple reason that fuel costs are cutting above what many people are willing to pay.  The demand curve stiffens dramatically at a certain point - in the USA I'd guess $5 a gallon gas is close to a dramatic stiffening (ie. no more Sunday drives, seriously consider trip costs, etc.).

But in much of the rest of the world, $120+ a barrel is more than their population can or is willing to pay.  When the developing world's (including India and China) demand curve is stretch our prices will stabilize.  While significant, our impact on oil prices isn't what it used to be...