Scalpers

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by TURobY

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

But it's ok for the oilies to purchase gas or oil and mark it up?

Did I say that? Looking at my posting history, I don't see anything, even alluding to, that could be construed as such.

My thoughts on limited, non-renewable, natural resources are a completely different discussion from ticket scalping.

The oil and gas situation is very similar. But the powers that be seem more concerned with controlling ticket prices than our energy costs.

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

Cannon Fodder returns with more misinformation.

Really?

quote:Often times arenas over sell and scalpers are left with seats they have to unload at lower prices. The oil traders get to use all sorts of futures to manipulate prices. Why not the poor ticket broker?

I covered this above.  The scalpers that buy too many tickets and end up selling below cost don't stay in the business long - nor would an oil trader.  Their intent and net effect is NOT to lower ticket prices by the very nature of the business.

Hence, bad argument.

quote:
Many times, ticket purchasers are faced with having extra tickets due to a friend being sick, flight cancellations, etc. and being able to resell their tickets to avoid a loss becomes prohibitive under this victimless crime outlet.
Another duty for our already over stretched police department. Won't they be too busy inside curtailing inhalation?

No, you are perfectly free to sell the tickets at or below face value and may recoup any costs you incurred in doing so.  Please read the proposed law.

So this argument is totally without merit.

quote:
Individuals from outside of Tulsa look to newspapers and the internet to barter or buy sold out performance tickets. I often utilized scalpers to achieve better seats through trading up. Sometimes, I'd offer 3 seats for 2. Or, trade a ticket to Rascal Flatts for a Kenney Cheezey.

All of these activities would be perfectly allowed under the proposed law.  Please read the proposed law.

This argument is totally without merit.

quote:
It's nice to see all you hypocritical capitalists coming out for this change in policy.

If this was a private market arena I wouldn't care.  I do not complain about Cain's ticket prices nor any other private venue.  They can set their own scalping criteria.  But area residents  are paying for the BOk center so I am able to see the argument against manipulating the price for personal gain.

I clearly outlined this position above and grow tired of repeating myself.

quote:
Those cities you list are not in the same market as our little SMURF Areema. Besides, most those cities have deemed it unenforceable. We will find ways around this issue.

If Tulsa is "Busch League" and has no market for our crap, then why would a scalper want to do business here anyway?  Also, of course there will be work arounds.  The article on this exact topic has the drafter of the proposal admitting the exact same thing but still would like to send a message.

Also, if it is good enough for their markets - what factors change in Tulsa?
- - -

I notice you dropped your argument that scalpers raise demand or that people/acts will avoid Tulsa because of a lack of scalpers.  Or are you still doing due diligence in that area?

Try reading other people's post and researching and/or THINKING about your positions.  The proposed law does infringe on any of the activities you are demanding.  The limits I suggested were 10 (or registration, so no firm limits).  There are work arounds, everyone admits that.  Scalpers are in business to RAISE prices and make money.

Any other worthless argument you want to raise over and over?

[TheTed]

It adds to the urban fabric when you're walking to a game at a downtown ballpark/arena and there are guys on every corner holding handfuls of tickets yelling 'tickets' and making deals.

I really don't see what's wrong with scalping. If I want to attend an event I'm on the internet buying my tickets the second they go on sale.

But I do end up buying tickets from scalpers frequently. I've gotten tickets outside a venue for far less than face value much more frequently than I've paid over face.

The proposed law is stupid. The value of my Corolla is going up because of high gas prices. Should I not be allowed to sell it for more than blue book value?

[RecycleMichael]

There is a local guy (834-CALL) who always has tickets to everything.

I don't have time to stand in line for good seats and this guy always comes through.

I see nothing wrong with the way this guy operates. He works hard and is very professional.

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

There is a local guy (834-CALL) who always has tickets to everything.

I don't have time to stand in line for good seats and this guy always comes through.

I see nothing wrong with the way this guy operates. He works hard and is very professional.

+!1

Local scalpers have seen the writing on the wall....

Let's put some more ridiculous laws on our books. Cannon Fodder, your flimsy response, your taking what I said out of context and twisting it yet again, have convinced me to jail and/or fine scalpers is a great remedy to this hideous criminal activity.

BTW, I have a ticket stub collection second to none.  Few were bought through normal channels for the purpose of securing front and/or center seats. Today, you can pay the promoter for those seats much higher than scalper prices.I should be availed freedom to buy and sell if the market says so.

I guess you just don't believe in a free market economy. This discussion is sick because the Areema will have few if any sold out shows after 2010.

[cannon_fodder]

I don't know why I bother, you clearly don't even read my posts.  I specifically stated, twice - three times now, that I'm not really concerned about scalpers and that this law will have little if any real effect.  All I said was that your arguments were weak and mostly not even pertinent to the proposed law and that I saw no bennefit to me from scalpers so I wouldn't bother arguing against the law.

BUT, in my defense (again) - I took nothing out of context.  I quoted your entire reply.  A quote in it's entirety simply can not be out of context.  It's not my fault you can't frame a decent argument and usually post on topics you are grossly uninformed on.

Also, front row seats are often not bought by actual fans BECAUSE of scalpers.  Saying we need scalpers to get front row seats is a backwards argument.  

I don't really care about scalpers.  It is just not in my nature to let poor arguments go unchallenged and you have presented nothing but.  Likewise, goading me about "not being a free market capitalist" is not exactly a strong counter argument.

Also, if the arena won't sell at all there will be no scalper activity and you won't be attending - so why bother taking issue?

You hit the nail no the head when you said "I should be availed freedom to buy and sell if the market says so."  That is a good argument and one I can not really disagree with - other than pointing out that the arena is public subsidized (which is fairly weak considering too much of everything is AND that other people are allowed to profit from it).  My issue is not your position, but the arguments you raised to support it.

And finally, as far as ticket stubs go, I stopped collecting stubs sometime upon entering college...

[]

[Conan71]

My favorite scalper is Mike Carraciolo:

www.thekidfrombrooklyn.com

I wish you could still watch all his videos for free.  One funny mother-****er.

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I don't know why I bother, you clearly don't even read my posts.  I specifically stated, twice - three times now, that I'm not really concerned about scalpers and that this law will have little if any real effect.  All I said was that your arguments were weak and mostly not even pertinent to the proposed law and that I saw no bennefit to me from scalpers so I wouldn't bother arguing against the law.

BUT, in my defense (again) - I took nothing out of context.  I quoted your entire reply.  A quote in it's entirety simply can not be out of context.  It's not my fault you can't frame a decent argument and usually post on topics you are grossly uninformed on.

Also, front row seats are often not bought by actual fans BECAUSE of scalpers.  Saying we need scalpers to get front row seats is a backwards argument.  

I don't really care about scalpers.  It is just not in my nature to let poor arguments go unchallenged and you have presented nothing but.  Likewise, goading me about "not being a free market capitalist" is not exactly a strong counter argument.

Also, if the arena won't sell at all there will be no scalper activity and you won't be attending - so why bother taking issue?

You hit the nail no the head when you said "I should be availed freedom to buy and sell if the market says so."  That is a good argument and one I can not really disagree with - other than pointing out that the arena is public subsidized (which is fairly weak considering too much of everything is AND that other people are allowed to profit from it).  My issue is not your position, but the arguments you raised to support it.

And finally, as far as ticket stubs go, I stopped collecting stubs sometime upon entering college...

[]

I never said we NEED scalpers for front row seats. Despite other mischaracterizations of my comments, you and I seem to agree with the exception of your attitude of continuing down the socialist path. It's really like how you play into kill the messenger. He is a devil.

[PonderInc]

I have no trouble with the people who get in line to buy tickets like all the rest of us, and then stand out in the rain on the corner to sell their tickets.

I do dislike the fact that, at many venues throughout the country, I can't buy tickets at face value unless I buy them the day they go on sale.  There are plenty of seats available, but the scalpers have marked them up 3-fold.  These are not local folks, they are internet companies who just transfer paper for profit.  

I personally won't buy $50 tickets for $200, and I'm sure I'm not alone.  It just means that if I didn't know about a show in advance, I won't get the chance to go see it.  It also means that I won't be visiting another city to enjoy a concert.  I won't be spending money on a hotel and restaurants...b/c the markup on the tickets eliminates the rest of my travel budget.

Unlike the airlines, these scalpers (to my knowledge) don't ofter last minute discounts on unsold seats.  They just sit on the unsold seats to protect their exorbitant prices...and the artificial scarcity they created to enable them to control the prices.

BTW, what's a Busch League?  A place where everyone drinks Budweiser?  That WOULD be bad...though Bud is pretty good for cooking bratwurst...

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

I have no trouble with the people who get in line to buy tickets like all the rest of us, and then stand out in the rain on the corner to sell their tickets.

I do dislike the fact that, at many venues throughout the country, I can't buy tickets at face value unless I buy them the day they go on sale.  There are plenty of seats available, but the scalpers have marked them up 3-fold.  These are not local folks, they are internet companies who just transfer paper for profit.  

I personally won't buy $50 tickets for $200, and I'm sure I'm not alone.  It just means that if I didn't know about a show in advance, I won't get the chance to go see it.  It also means that I won't be visiting another city to enjoy a concert.  I won't be spending money on a hotel and restaurants...b/c the markup on the tickets eliminates the rest of my travel budget.

Unlike the airlines, these scalpers (to my knowledge) don't ofter last minute discounts on unsold seats.  They just sit on the unsold seats to protect their exorbitant prices...and the artificial scarcity they created to enable them to control the prices.

BTW, what's a Busch League?  A place where everyone drinks Budweiser?  That WOULD be bad...though Bud is pretty good for cooking bratwurst...

Busch League would refer to a big league ballplayer sent to the minors never to return to the big time. Often used derogatorily towards old majors facing the end in the minors after a strike out. You don't hear it these days. But in the 50's and 60's it'd be a way of saying "give it up".

I should have said Tulsa can be so Busch League.
It could be more progressive. Scalpers are the least of their worries. Too many tickets chasing too few dollars? I really don't think the type of scalpers you describe as surviving in this market.

[cannon_fodder]

FOTD, the term you are looking for is "Bush League."

Etymology.com
Bush league is from 1908, from bush in the slang sense of "rural, provincial" (1650s), which was not originally a value judgment.

Takeourword.com
ush league arose in American baseball, referring to the minor leagues, especially those not of very good quality.  Players from the bush leagues were referred to as bush leaguers.  The term has come to be used beyond baseball, so that anyone who is considered a novice or not skilled in some area may be called a bush leaguer, and his or her work referred to as [of the] bush league.

Now on to the etymology.  Why bush?  This arose, apparently first in Australia (later turning up in South Africa and New Zealand), from Dutch bosch "wood(s)", and first appears in written English in the late 18th century, referring to woods but also, and then later more exclusively, to uncleared, untamed lands, especially in the interior.  It also came to mean "country" versus "city".  By extension, bush came to refer, by the middle of the 19th century, to anything crude or roughly made, or a person practicing a craft for which he had received no formal training, like a "bush carpenter".  That sense was picked up in America and applied to the minor baseball leagues, which often played in small towns and were not as skilful as the major league players.  Bush league is first recorded in that sense in 1906, as is bush leaguer.  By 1943 it was being used beyond baseball.  In 1975 we find, "I don't care who she is and what she knows, compared to Polly she's a bush leaguer," from Saul Bellow's Humboldt's Gift (which, incidentally, won Bellow the Pulitzer Prize for 1976, and he won the Nobel prize for literature that same year).
- - -

BusCh League refers to a NASCAR classification that is lesser than the Winston/Nextel Cup.

Not to be nit picky, but even when pointed out that you were mistaken (repeatedly) you insisted you were correct.
- - - - - -

Also, you are the one that keeps saying we need scalpers.  Then follow up each time by saying we suck so bad we won't have any scalpers.  So why do you care and why do you live here?

Not saying you need to move, I'm happy to have anyone that wants to spend money here do so.  I just don't get it.  According to you everything sucks.

[custosnox]

Personally I rarely buy tickets.  In all honesty, I've only bought one set of tickets in my life, and that was about 10 years ago.  I'm one of the fortunate that knows enough people in the entertainment arena's in the Tulsa area that I get my tickets free (and impressed the hell out of my GF on our first date when we walked in to the Ron White concert and was handed front row tickets).  Now that I have tooted my own horn (don't get to often, so I will when I can lol), while in general I don't have a problem with scalpers, there is a point that I draw a line.  I have three daughters, all of the Hannah Montana fan age, and, of course are fans.  When I decided that tickets to the show would have made great christmas gifts, and knowing that I couldn't get them free this time, I turned to the other sources.  Of course, all shows were sold out, and what was available was through scalpers.  The cheapest I found tickets for was about $300 for nose bleeds in Tennessee (still trying to figure that out), months away.  This, IMHO, wasn't scalping, it was highway robery.  While I don't mind people turning a profit by acting quickly, when you take advantage of a system in this manner, then I say something should be done.

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

FOTD, the term you are looking for is "Bush League."

Etymology.com
Bush league is from 1908, from bush in the slang sense of "rural, provincial" (1650s), which was not originally a value judgment.

Takeourword.com
ush league arose in American baseball, referring to the minor leagues, especially those not of very good quality.  Players from the bush leagues were referred to as bush leaguers.  The term has come to be used beyond baseball, so that anyone who is considered a novice or not skilled in some area may be called a bush leaguer, and his or her work referred to as [of the] bush league.

Now on to the etymology.  Why bush?  This arose, apparently first in Australia (later turning up in South Africa and New Zealand), from Dutch bosch "wood(s)", and first appears in written English in the late 18th century, referring to woods but also, and then later more exclusively, to uncleared, untamed lands, especially in the interior.  It also came to mean "country" versus "city".  By extension, bush came to refer, by the middle of the 19th century, to anything crude or roughly made, or a person practicing a craft for which he had received no formal training, like a "bush carpenter".  That sense was picked up in America and applied to the minor baseball leagues, which often played in small towns and were not as skilful as the major league players.  Bush league is first recorded in that sense in 1906, as is bush leaguer.  By 1943 it was being used beyond baseball.  In 1975 we find, "I don't care who she is and what she knows, compared to Polly she's a bush leaguer," from Saul Bellow's Humboldt's Gift (which, incidentally, won Bellow the Pulitzer Prize for 1976, and he won the Nobel prize for literature that same year).
- - -

BusCh League refers to a NASCAR classification that is lesser than the Winston/Nextel Cup.

Not to be nit picky, but even when pointed out that you were mistaken (repeatedly) you insisted you were correct.
- - - - - -

Also, you are the one that keeps saying we need scalpers.  Then follow up each time by saying we suck so bad we won't have any scalpers.  So why do you care and why do you live here?

Not saying you need to move, I'm happy to have anyone that wants to spend money here do so.  I just don't get it.  According to you everything sucks.

Thanks for clarifying Bush leaguer.

It still applies. I would not use the spelling Bush. Seems so Orwellian....

I don't hate it. I am miffed about why people here want to be like every other city in America. We are a unique city. I don't think the entertainment market nor the convention market is adequate to help with certain taxpayer expenditures. Sorry, if it seems I might be pissed there's an arena. I just think for the dollars to build and the dollars to keep it going the city could have done a lot better. Realistically, I'm not sure what nights I will be around to go see a show. I like having choices. A scalper affords you that opportunity to shop around.

[cannon_fodder]

Well, I agree with that sentiment.  Tulsa should stay unique, the arena might be a bad investment, and scalpers do open up some opportunities.  

On the rest, I'll agree with disagree.[]

[TUalum0982]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

[1] For over 40 years I have used Scalpers for ducats to major events. They help tremendously.

[2]Tulsa is so Busch League.

[3]It helps demand to allow Scalpers to resell tickets.

[4]Another reason besides access and entertainers to skip this venue.

1) If you have used scalpers for over 40 years, you have wasted untold amounts of money.  By definition, a scalper buys a ticket at face value and resells it at a higher price.  Why didn't you just buy the ticket at face value?

Who are they helping tremendously?

2) If Tulsa is "Busch League" (didn't know we were talking about NASCAR) then why are scalpers interested anyway?  

DC, Detroit, Los Angles, San Francisco, Seattle, Kansas City, Atlanta, Denver, Minneapolis, Portland, Cinci, and Baltimore are a few other "Busch League" cities that have anti scalping ordnances.

Here is a list of cities with the exact same law as Tulsa has proposed:
]
Anaheim
Ann Arbor
Atlanta
Baltimore
Denver
Edmonton
Green Bay
Joliet (Chicago)
Kansas City
Los Angeles
Seattle
St. Louis

I've notice that they are all suffering from the problems you listed and can't get entertainers in... /sarcasm

3)  Scalpers buy tickets to resell them.  They would not buy tickets to resell if the demand to buy them was not already there.  Hence, they have a minimal impact on actual demand for tickets.  

Not hard to figure that out.  The only scalper that would have a positive influence on demand would be the one that sucks at his job and buys more tickets than he can sell. Which he probably would not do too often.

4) Show me one time in history that someone skipped a venue because they didn't have scalpers.  That's argument is simply horrible.
- - -

Anti-scalping laws actually increase team revenues, as the laws have no adverse effect on attendance.
Another look at anti-scalping laws: Theory and evidence, Abstract available at: http://ideas.repec.org/a/kap/pubcho/v130y2007i1p55-77.html

If anything scalping indicates the venue is charging too little for the product - which would indicate the community is getting more for their money than they deserve.  Scalpers step in and make up the difference in profit to themselves (instead of to the venue, artist, or in savings to the community).  While a great example of markets at work, this doesn't really help me since I am subsidizing the venue.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cj15n1-4.html
- - -

Basically FOTD, scalpers step in and buy the max number of tickets and have their friends do the same.  They then sell them to people at a higher price.  It's really that simple.

So while I don't fault them for making a buck and will not shout for the practice to be banned, I fail to see the bennefit to me or anyone else BUT the scalpers.  The above linked CATO article makes a good market-based case for not bothering to outlaw it and I agree... it probably isn't worth the hassle.   The venue can
have issuance practices that try to accomplish the same thing (limit 10 UNLESS they contact and register a group, etc.) and probably be as effective.

You can make a good argument for "don't bother,"  but your reasons are not that argument.

wow, exactly what I was going to say.  If you notice on ebay anytime you are looking for tickets in another city/state that does have scalping laws, they always include an extra something special, like a pen or poster or something along with the tickets.  Thats how they get around it, in a crappy sorta way.