Street financing Town Hall meetings

[RecycleMichael]

I went to the first of the many street funding public meetings tonight. It was at McClure Park and was attended by many citizens (I counted 108),  four television stations, four councilors (Martinson, Patrick, Christiansen and Gomez), the Mayor and a handle of public works folks.

Martinson did a good job starting the meeting with a powerpoint presentation talking about the needs for repairs and the funding options.

I hope that the public comes out and learns the details for themselves instead of just the facts that the media share. I think that anybody who keeps an open mind during the presentation will agree that something has to be done and the time to do it is now.

[Wrinkle]

Something is one thing, but what's being proposed is another.

[TulsaSooner]

I agree with that older guy I saw on the news stations that said the property tax wasn't fair because his property never drives on the roads.

[]

[PonderInc]

Just read the article in the TW about Christiansen opposing any package that doesn't include south Tulsa street widening.

I understand Christiansen's desire to make his constituents happy by widening their roads, but does he actually grasp the fact that sprawl and widening roads to the burbs is what got us in this fix to begin with?

Does he understand that wide roads are a detriment to mass transit and pedestrian access?  Does he realize that the solution will require a change in urban design and zoning codes to make new developments pedestrian friendly and less car-dependent?

As far as I know, there aren't that many major job centers in south Tulsa.  So all of his constituents will continue to need to get downtown, and to various hospitals, office parks, universities, the airport, etc.  Wide roads aren't going to help these people when gas is $5 a gallon.

Does he have the foresight to fight for reliable and efficient mass transit?  For new zoning codes to help make any new development more livable and less car-reliant?

They say that nations tend to fight the previous war.  (The Maginot line would have worked great for France during WWI, but in WWII, German tanks went around it and German planes flew right over it.)  I think Christiansen seems to be fighting for the previous paradigm.  Hope he realizes that the world is changing before it totally passes him by.  We need more radical, creative solutions --and much braver leadership--than just demanding more asphalt to maintain.  

The folks who moved down south saw the narrow roads when they chose to build there.  If they want to widen them, that's fine with me.  But they should pony up for the cost.  Why should the rest of the city pay a stupidity tax to support unsustainable development that will simply add to the drain on Tulsa's resources? (expanded utilities, fire, police, roads, etc)

The future will be about driving less, not more.  Do we want to plan for that future?  Or just become more and more obsolete by continuing to "do what we've always done?"

[blindnil]

The link below is the World's coverage of last night's meeting. Seems pretty dumb to go out to tout a package without being able to reveal all the details.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080604_16_A8_hInthe996223

[Wrinkle]

quote:Originally posted by blindnil

The link below is the World's coverage of last night's meeting. Seems pretty dumb to go out to tout a package without being able to reveal all the details.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080604_16_A8_hInthe996223

Seems they're trying to fulfill the legal requirements without the meat.

If they don't know how this is funded yet, it's going to be hard to pull it off without blind luck.

But, if they do know and aren't saying, well, that's something else entirely.

[jackbristow]

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

quote:Originally posted by blindnil

The link below is the World's coverage of last night's meeting. Seems pretty dumb to go out to tout a package without being able to reveal all the details.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080604_16_A8_hInthe996223

Seems they're trying to fulfill the legal requirements without the meat.

If they don't know how this is funded yet, it's going to be hard to pull it off without blind luck.

But, if they do know and aren't saying, well, that's something else entirely.

Pretty sure it's been laid out pretty clear.  It relies on extending the V2025, Third Penny and 4 to Fix sales taxes and slight increases in Utility rates starting in about 2013.

In other words, relatively no new taxes.  Utility rates always go up anyway.

[TeeDub]

Tulsa took your money, Tulsa spent your money...

Now rather than the city/county doing the belt tightening, it is again time for the citizens to do it...  Again.

[Red Arrow]

I want to support Mass Transit but the clannish attitude of some downtowners is starting to put me off.  

I hope to attend one of the street funding meetings but missed the first one. I did attend the "What About Rail" presentation. I liked it except for the attempted extortion to park my car. (No other way to get there, yet.) I haven't seen any plans for Mass Transit to make it feasible to leave my car at home, near 111th & Memorial, yet I am expected to pay for it. Then the downtown clan tells me to pay for my own road improvements as well as for downtown.

At some time or another, Tulsa chose to annex the property in what is now SE Tulsa. I expect it was for the potential tax base.  It certainly wasn't for existing utilities, police, fire protection, roads.  In exchange for paying taxes to Tulsa, it is reasonable to expect city services.  South Tulsa has been paying a stupidity tax to support downtown. In exchange we get no Mass Transit and get told to stuff it when we ask for road improvements.

It is not reasonable to assume that "all" of SE Tulsans work downtown.  I guess a formal definition of SE Tulsa is required to determine if there are any major employment centers. I consider the Saint Francis health complexes to be SE Tulsa.  The 71st street corridor should also qualify as SE Tulsa.  At least none of the downtowners admit to going there.  There may not be a single employer of huge numbers of people but there are lots of employers with small numbers of people.

Others have already said that the role of the automobile has to change but that it is not going to go away. I can agree with that. Provide me with a way to get from 111th & Memorial to the Richard Lloyd Jones Jr Airport (the one by Jenks) in a time and cost comparible to my auto and I would probably take it.  I might even use a bus if gas gets much higher.  It would have to be more than $5/gal. My 20 mile round trip at 20 mpg and $5/gal would only be about $100/mo for gas. (Remember to deduct vacation and holidays if you are checking my math.) I realize others are not so fortunate. Give me light rail and I'll take it now. No parking lot door dings. No worrys about hail storms. No sliding on snowy roads. Not putting up with idiot drivers trying to merge with 65 MPH traffic while entering the turnpike at 45 MPH and then passing you as if you were a turtle a mile later.  And so on.

[waterboy]

There is no Downtown Clan. There is no MidTown Elite. There is no SouthEast Clan. Those are not helpful groupings and tend to create hardening of views without much analysis. A few outspoken people from those areas do not represent us all.

You make a good point that much of the traffic out south is not going downtown or even north of 71st. Daytime traffic is brisk out along Memorial to 117th because of the retail expansion around Bixby and the tons of medical clinics. A lot of back and forth traffic from BA, Glenpool, Jenks as well. The needs out there are not maintenance or repair but streamlining of the traffic flow. Widening of some streets will help that out. Closer in to town the roads are abysmal. They need serious repair and rehab.

As long as the two lifestyles of suburban and urban are so different I can understand the reticence to fund each other. My opinion is, I'll hold my nose and vote for limited widening if you'll close your eyes and vote for road repair and mass transit.

[Gaspar]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

There is no Downtown Clan. There is no MidTown Elite. There is no SouthEast Clan. Those are not helpful groupings and tend to create hardening of views without much analysis. A few outspoken people from those areas do not represent us all.

You make a good point that much of the traffic out south is not going downtown or even north of 71st. Daytime traffic is brisk out along Memorial to 117th because of the retail expansion around Bixby and the tons of medical clinics. A lot of back and forth traffic from BA, Glenpool, Jenks as well. The needs out there are not maintenance or repair but streamlining of the traffic flow. Widening of some streets will help that out. Closer in to town the roads are abysmal. They need serious repair and rehab.

As long as the two lifestyles of suburban and urban are so different I can understand the reticence to fund each other. My opinion is, I'll hold my nose and vote for limited widening if you'll close your eyes and vote for road repair and mass transit.

Well said!  

I don't think this needs to be a polar issue.  The problems exist.  They affect us all.  We need to fix them. . . and we need to keep an eye on how efficiently the money is spent!

This is an opportunity for our leaders to prove their worth through fiscal responsibility or be replaced.

Lets give them the rope they need, and the support necessary to climb up the gallows or out of the pit.

[Red Arrow]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

There is no Downtown Clan. There is no MidTown Elite. There is no SouthEast Clan. Those are not helpful groupings and tend to create hardening of views without much analysis. A few outspoken people from those areas do not represent us all.

You make a good point that much of the traffic out south is not going downtown or even north of 71st. Daytime traffic is brisk out along Memorial to 117th because of the retail expansion around Bixby and the tons of medical clinics. A lot of back and forth traffic from BA, Glenpool, Jenks as well. The needs out there are not maintenance or repair but streamlining of the traffic flow. Widening of some streets will help that out. Closer in to town the roads are abysmal. They need serious repair and rehab.

As long as the two lifestyles of suburban and urban are so different I can understand the reticence to fund each other. My opinion is, I'll hold my nose and vote for limited widening if you'll close your eyes and vote for road repair and mass transit.

I certainly hope there are no real clans in the various districts. I was just trying to get someone to stand up and say enough of this divisiveness.  Thank you.

[Rico]

The fact that Public Works is doing an audit, in preparation for the 2 Billion.....  will surely bring people together in a customary Tulsa fashion.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080605_16_A11_hSomet79213

I know this was mentioned in the "Discussion" section....but it will surely play a part in the credibility of this project..

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by Rico

The fact that Public Works is doing an audit, in preparation for the 2 Billion.....  will surely bring people together in a customary Tulsa fashion.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080605_16_A11_hSomet79213

I know this was mentioned in the "Discussion" section....but it will surely play a part in the credibility of this project..

I love that bumper sticker. Print it and I'll buy some.[]

[bacjz00]

That sticker has been getting spread around by e-mail all over the city. I dunno who is responsible but really it's not accurate IMO...

It oughta read

Tulsa.

Support something.  Anything.