Obama has bigger tax cuts for middle class

[Chicken Little]

From WaPo

quote: McCain's Tax Plan Aids Wealthy, Says Group


An analysis of both campaigns proposals by the Washington-based, nonpartisan Tax Policy Center found that for people with incomes between $66,354 and $111,645, Obama's proposals would cut their taxes by more than $1000, compared to around $300 under McCain's plan. But for Americans with incomes above $603,402, Obama would raise their taxes dramatically, by more than $115,000 a year, while McCain would cut them by $45,000.

[Hometown]

Kids, this is why working people vote Democrat and why Fat Cats vote Republican.

[RecycleMichael]

Trickle down economics are really tinkle on.

[Conan71]

You really need to read the fine print when politicians start talking tax cuts and increases.  Is there still a marriage penalty under Obama's plan?

[guido911]

I knew we could count on the "have nots" on this board complaining that the "haves" have too much and should have it taken away. After all, we have to punish those who dare achieve the American dream. Vote Democrat!

Here's a take on the "nonpartisan Tax Policy Center", the entity that provided the analysis for this article:

http://fallingpanda.blogspot.com/2008/06/jeanne-sahadi-shows-cnn-bias.html

[Conan71]

"Non-partisan" and "balanced" are two of the biggest misnomers in Washington.

The Tax Policy Center sounds about like the sham American Hunters and Shooters Association which exclusively backs libs for office.

[cannon_fodder]

Woohoo! I've made it, I'm a Fat Cat.  I didn't know that, but glad to hear it. Also, Kathy Taylor and John Kerry are not working people AND billionaires.  Stereotypes are great.

But really, I want everyone to pay a fair share.  I don't care what that implies, but simply making more should not mean you pay a higher PERCENTAGE of your earnings.  Notice how little is said about the real back door riches earned - capital gains taxes, honorariums, trusts, and foundations are still able to garner HUGE incomes for the wealthiest of Americans at lower tax brackets than I pay (I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination).

While I don't wanted punish the production of wealth, it doesn't seem entirely fair that those with wealth have means of achieving more wealth at a lesser tax rate than everyone else.  Why doesn't anyone complain about that?

The Fair Tax would remedy that problem.  As well as the problem of the alternative minimum tax, taxes on Americans stuck in poverty, the marriage penalty, and transfers of wealth.  But, it would also effectively eliminate the governments ability to play favorites with the rich, hand pick industries for tax breaks, and to keep track of our bank accounts.

On a different note, we need taxes to run the country.  Most people are the middle class... most people should have to pay taxes to run the country.  We are close to having a majority of Americans NOT actually paying taxes (by some account we are already there).   We don't want to cut spending, but we need more revenue.  So we take the assets of other people so the other 50% can get their government for free (and STILL run a deficit).

Sorry, reality here again.  We need to either cut spending or raise taxes.  And not just on the rich (PLEASE cut spending).

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

 We need to either cut spending or raise taxes.  And not just on the rich (PLEASE cut spending).

Abso-freakin-lutely.

Oh, and welcome to the Fat Cat club, whatever that class warfare terrminology crap means.

[Hometown]

I was surprised when I learned I was upper income.  But I'm a Democrat that realizes my economic well being is tied to the health of my community.

Cannon and Guido and Conan are doing what the Republicans have done since 1980:  They tie the taxes of working people to the taxes of fat cats and say they are one and the same thing.  That's how the Republicans have gotten working people to vote against their own self interest.

Cannon and the Reaganites, strumming same old tired tune.  Can't you guys come up with anything new?  The air was let out of Reaganomics a long time ago.

[we vs us]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown


Cannon and Guido and Conan are doing what the Republicans have done since 1980:  They tie the taxes of working people to the taxes of fat cats and say they are one and the same thing.  That's how the Republicans have gotten working people to vote against their own self interest.

Well said.

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

I was surprised when I learned I was upper income.  But I'm a Democrat that realizes my economic well being is tied to the health of my community.

Cannon and Guido and Conan are doing what the Republicans have done since 1980:  They tie the taxes of working people to the taxes of fat cats and say they are one and the same thing.  That's how the Republicans have gotten working people to vote against their own self interest.

Cannon and the Reaganites, strumming same old tired tune.  Can't you guys come up with anything new?  The air was let out of Reaganomics a long time ago.

Oh that's right. We need new economic, tax thinkers such as Michelle Obama, who tells us:

"The truth is, in order to get things like universal health care and a revamped education system, then someone is going to have to give up a piece of their pie so that someone else can have more."

Sounds like nothing more than pure wealth redistribution. Is that the Democrat tax policy?

And by the way, enough of the "working people" BS. My wife and I worked darned hard to get to where we are today, and we continue to work hard to provide for our family. I dare say there are similar "working people" out there who believe the same way I do.

[Red Arrow]

quote:Originally posted by guido911

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

I was surprised when I learned I was upper income.  But I'm a Democrat that realizes my economic well being is tied to the health of my community.

Cannon and Guido and Conan are doing what the Republicans have done since 1980:  They tie the taxes of working people to the taxes of fat cats and say they are one and the same thing.  That's how the Republicans have gotten working people to vote against their own self interest.

Cannon and the Reaganites, strumming same old tired tune.  Can't you guys come up with anything new?  The air was let out of Reaganomics a long time ago.

Oh that's right. We need new economic, tax thinkers such as Michelle Obama, who tells us:

"The truth is, in order to get things like universal health care and a revamped education system, then someone is going to have to give up a piece of their pie so that someone else can have more."

Sounds like nothing more than pure wealth redistribution. Is that the Democrat tax policy?

And by the way, enough of the "working people" BS. My wife and I worked darned hard to get to where we are today, and we continue to work hard to provide for our family. I dare say there are similar "working people" out there who believe the same way I do.

You just don't understand the theory of entitlement.  When you accept that everyone is entitled to happiness (not the just pursuit of happiness), you will be glad to buy into the Democratic party's philosophy of taxes:

How much did you make?
Send it in.
[]

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Hometown

I was surprised when I learned I was upper income.  But I'm a Democrat that realizes my economic well being is tied to the health of my community.

Cannon and Guido and Conan are doing what the Republicans have done since 1980:  They tie the taxes of working people to the taxes of fat cats and say they are one and the same thing.  That's how the Republicans have gotten working people to vote against their own self interest.

Cannon and the Reaganites, strumming same old tired tune.  Can't you guys come up with anything new?  The air was let out of Reaganomics a long time ago.

HT,

I don't have a problem paying taxes for essential goods and services which should be expected from government.  I don't have a problem with my tax dollars going to food stamps to feed the children of an unemployed man who is looking for work.  I do realize there is a percentage of our population, who through no fault of their own, are incapable of working and I accept that they can be given a stipend from the government so that they can live.

What I do have a problem with is all the damn layers of government administration which bloat payrolls to the point that we need to pay so much in taxes.  I dare say, the amount of money spent to administer SSI, welfare, and other entitlement programs probably rivals the dole itself.

Instead of a true reformer coming in, examining every budget and cutting out all the waste, we keep voting for candidates who promise us even more without cutting out the schlock we have in the budget now.

My conservative thinking is this:

Don't come to me with another damn tax increase until you've shown me you can cut the federal budget by 15 to 20% and you really do need the money to pay down debt, or we have finally figured out the magic panacea for health care.  Fine.

By the same token- don't give me another tax cut or rebate simply to try and buy my vote next November whilst wasting $40 some million on an advertising campaign that suggests the majority of Americans are too stupid to open their mailbox or check their bank account for direct deposit information.

The tax bracket I'm in has no bearing on my thinking on taxes.  The government has not earned the right to ask for more taxes at this point.

Our government simply doesn't have to be so big.  We fail to keep track of every beurocracy which gets created with every new need.  Think of this: there would have been a river commission, had we passed the 10/09 proposal.  Now there will be streets oversight commission, construction manager, project manager, you can wrap a few mill into administrative costs alone on major construction projects for a city or county.

[Gaspar]

Well, I'm nowhere near a fat cat!  I'm barley "middle class."  
Tax cuts across the board seem like a far better solution to our current problems than increasing taxes on anyone (and businesses that operate under an LLC).

Now I'm not a fan of the "trickle-down" theory, but I do understand common sense economics (something that seems to elude some).
 
Here's the deal:

Money in the economy makes more money, and generates sales tax revenue (especially because sales taxes are levied several times for every product and service, not that that is really fair).

Money acquired by the government, before, during, and after distribution, is reduced in value, and creates no mechanism for sustainable business (government programs must operate at a loss, to retain funding).

When you cut taxes you increase total government tax revenue as long as government spending is kept a constant.
 Sales tax revenue is collected at a far more efficient rate than income tax revenue.  

To break it down further, when you cut the taxes on a business or an individual at any level, that person will invest, buy, hire or spend.  It really doesn't matter what they invest in, what they buy or who they hire.  The expansion of human enterprise takes place either way.  The only concern would be that they keep most of the money domestic.

When you increase taxes on any entity, that entity will cystate.   This basically means they will spend less, produce less, seek more efficiency, and work less because any increase in taxes (especially on upper income brackets) reduces hiring and business expansion and increases reliance on government services such as unemployment, medicade.

Additionally as people and businesses at any level begin to seek efficiency they shelter activity, eliminate jobs, or move essential activities to lower wage or taxed regions (or out of country).

This is just basic first year economics.   There is nothing here that can be challenged, but give it a go.

There are only three reasons that tax-fans exist.

1.   To win votes, it is popular among the lower and middle class to see successful people punished (but only for those who view success as greed).

2.   Those within government see tax increases as job security.  Increased programs are the jet fuel for the stationary government engine.  Increased revenue is not.  Increased government revenue threatens government jobs, because it is an indicator of national prosperity.

3.   Economic cystation promotes liberal voting.  The lower the income of an individual, the more perceived reliance they have for a government safety-net or enhanced government programs.  The more they vote for these programs and increases in taxation the more the need grows, the lower the GNP falls, and more cystation takes place.  This manifest destiny is very hard to escape.  

Obama is very smart in the way he has put together this system.  This tax proposal has the potential to keep his party in power for a very long time.  

I'm afraid that McCain may lack the charisma or patients to be able to provide the economic education necessary to enlighten anyone on the matter.  

I also don't think he will be able package his plan with enough of a cut or simplification to our current program to make much of a difference.

[guido911]

Good post Gaspar