Interesting USA Today Story

[Gaspar]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

It was being reported on MSNBC last night that the story was not true. If they are drilling closer to Florida than we are then its in international waters. We should be scared because of China's history of catastrophic public works failures, not whether they will beat us in the race towards peak oil. Given the whole story it appears it has some truth but is being tossed around the net like it proves we need to drill in these protected areas.

A reminder folks. Supply is not the problem in this oil crisis. It will be a problem in the long term but then everything is. Domestic energy consumption, global demand, sinking dollar value and the failure to invest in alternative energy are more important than offshore drilling to our future.

These stories and McCain's sudden flip on longstanding support of protecting these areas is tied to Bush's opportunistic ploy to get drilling exemptions for his pals before he exits. They feel they can get dual use by blaming limited supply as the reason for the higher gasl. prices and use it against the Dems to get traction. Corn and its derivatives is next on the list.

It is exactly what I pointed out is wrong with the Bush style of governance and electioneering. Win at all costs, innundate the public with half truths and fall in line behind the "decisionmaker". McCain is more of the same.

That's amazing!  I mean that MSNBC is still around. [}:)]

Our energy independence shouldn't be a political issue.  We cannot remain a sovereign country if we are beholden to others for sustenance.

[Conan71]

I understand where you are coming from wheyou say supply isn't the problem, yet it is WB.  It's the image of peak oil and how much there really is or is not left in reserves around the world.  That's what is driving speculators is a finite supply which has stalled out at about 83mm bbl/day.

Granted more exploration for oil does nothing more than hasten depletion of the supply by increasing output, but if you look at the enormous infrastructure of machinery and vehicles which rely on petroleum or natural gas, the conversion to alt fuels is daunting.

I would assume with pump prices at the levels they are at now that from a price competition perspective, ethanol and bio-diesel should be stand-alone fuels, and therefore should drive more private investment in manufacturing them.  

Only problem as we are learning now about alternatives to petroleum is that we have farmers who have missed their window of getting corn and soy crops in due to the wet spring and attendant flooding.  Couple lower supply with competition for feed stocks, and present alternative fuel sources just aren't registering all that well.  

Most of the people who want us to cut our dependence on foreign oil don't want us to drill for new oil closer to home, so we continue to have this dependence and the price gets higher.  It is going to take a good 20 to 30 years to finally iron-out wrinkles in fuel alternatives and to obsolete out existing vehicles and machinery which depend on petroleum and won't run on present alt fuels.  So it should make sense that we could be producing more oil closer to home whilst still researching and developing better alternatives.  

This is the point I think a lot of people miss- we have to keep the machines and vehicles running long enough and economically enough until something better and sustainable can make sense and be affordable for everyone.

Development of alt fuels AND new drilling is the only thing which makes sense.  Denying new drilling opportunities only exascerbates the problem because good alternatives are not at market stage yet and won't be for some time.

[Gaspar]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

I understand where you are coming from wheyou say supply isn't the problem, yet it is WB.  It's the image of peak oil and how much there really is or is not left in reserves around the world.  That's what is driving speculators is a finite supply which has stalled out at about 83mm bbl/day.

Granted more exploration for oil does nothing more than hasten depletion of the supply by increasing output, but if you look at the enormous infrastructure of machinery and vehicles which rely on petroleum or natural gas, the conversion to alt fuels is daunting.

I would assume with pump prices at the levels they are at now that from a price competition perspective, ethanol and bio-diesel should be stand-alone fuels, and therefore should drive more private investment in manufacturing them.  

Only problem as we are learning now about alternatives to petroleum is that we have farmers who have missed their window of getting corn and soy crops in due to the wet spring and attendant flooding.  Couple lower supply with competition for feed stocks, and present alternative fuel sources just aren't registering all that well.  

Most of the people who want us to cut our dependence on foreign oil don't want us to drill for new oil closer to home, so we continue to have this dependence and the price gets higher.  It is going to take a good 20 to 30 years to finally iron-out wrinkles in fuel alternatives and to obsolete out existing vehicles and machinery which depend on petroleum and won't run on present alt fuels.  So it should make sense that we could be producing more oil closer to home whilst still researching and developing better alternatives.  

This is the point I think a lot of people miss- we have to keep the machines and vehicles running long enough and economically enough until something better and sustainable can make sense and be affordable for everyone.

Development of alt fuels AND new drilling is the only thing which makes sense.  Denying new drilling opportunities only exascerbates the problem because good alternatives are not at market stage yet and won't be for some time.

+1
I dig your wisdom!

[rwarn17588]

I never was a big fan of ethanol as an alternative fuel, mainly because the United States is dependent on one source -- corn -- for it domestically.

(On an aside, I wouldn't be too presumptuous about the lack of corn this fall. The last time there were conditions like these -- 1993 -- the corn crop in the Midwest was still huge because the fields that drained well saw enormous yields. What can be one farmer's misfortune can be another's fortune. It's not fair, but Mother Nature is seldom fair.)

I think it behooves the country to diversify its sources of ethanol because you never know when massive crop failures will kill your ability to make the stuff.

I think EV-hybrid vehicles are going to be the way to go in the coming decades. Most cars would be charged overnight, when there's plenty of capacity in the grid. Plus, you got guys like me who could hook it up to solar panels and thus lessen the need for coal and natural gas.

I think there will be some softening of oil prices, but barely below $100 a barrel, if it goes below that at all. Frankly, with humongous populations like India and China developing big middle classes, I don't see the supply problems with oil going away anytime soon.

That said, I think we really are on the cusp of big breakthroughs with alternative energy in the next decade or so. There's nothing like the high cost of oil and gas to spur honest and urgent research into cleaner-burning energy. I'm quite optimistic, actually.

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

I understand where you are coming from wheyou say supply isn't the problem, yet it is WB.  It's the image of peak oil and how much there really is or is not left in reserves around the world.  That's what is driving speculators is a finite supply which has stalled out at about 83mm bbl/day.

Granted more exploration for oil does nothing more than hasten depletion of the supply by increasing output, but if you look at the enormous infrastructure of machinery and vehicles which rely on petroleum or natural gas, the conversion to alt fuels is daunting.

I would assume with pump prices at the levels they are at now that from a price competition perspective, ethanol and bio-diesel should be stand-alone fuels, and therefore should drive more private investment in manufacturing them.  

Only problem as we are learning now about alternatives to petroleum is that we have farmers who have missed their window of getting corn and soy crops in due to the wet spring and attendant flooding.  Couple lower supply with competition for feed stocks, and present alternative fuel sources just aren't registering all that well.  

Most of the people who want us to cut our dependence on foreign oil don't want us to drill for new oil closer to home, so we continue to have this dependence and the price gets higher.  It is going to take a good 20 to 30 years to finally iron-out wrinkles in fuel alternatives and to obsolete out existing vehicles and machinery which depend on petroleum and won't run on present alt fuels.  So it should make sense that we could be producing more oil closer to home whilst still researching and developing better alternatives.  

This is the point I think a lot of people miss- we have to keep the machines and vehicles running long enough and economically enough until something better and sustainable can make sense and be affordable for everyone.

Development of alt fuels AND new drilling is the only thing which makes sense.  Denying new drilling opportunities only exascerbates the problem because good alternatives are not at market stage yet and won't be for some time.

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by dbacks fan

FWIW, my problem is that they are presenting a flag of another country in a campaign office for some one running for the President of the UNITED STATES.

I just don't like seeing the Cuban flag in the same shot with the US flag. I don't care if it has a picture of Che on it or not, it's just not right.

There.  all better? []

[we vs us]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

{Various Obama pics}

There.  all better? []

Hilarious, Ruf []

[Breadburner]

Obamanation is a disgrace.....

[Conan71]

You forgot this one Ruf []:

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

I never was a big fan of ethanol as an alternative fuel, mainly because the United States is dependent on one source -- corn -- for it domestically.

(On an aside, I wouldn't be too presumptuous about the lack of corn this fall. The last time there were conditions like these -- 1993 -- the corn crop in the Midwest was still huge because the fields that drained well saw enormous yields. What can be one farmer's misfortune can be another's fortune. It's not fair, but Mother Nature is seldom fair.)

I think it behooves the country to diversify its sources of ethanol because you never know when massive crop failures will kill your ability to make the stuff.

I think EV-hybrid vehicles are going to be the way to go in the coming decades. Most cars would be charged overnight, when there's plenty of capacity in the grid. Plus, you got guys like me who could hook it up to solar panels and thus lessen the need for coal and natural gas.

I think there will be some softening of oil prices, but barely below $100 a barrel, if it goes below that at all. Frankly, with humongous populations like India and China developing big middle classes, I don't see the supply problems with oil going away anytime soon.

That said, I think we really are on the cusp of big breakthroughs with alternative energy in the next decade or so. There's nothing like the high cost of oil and gas to spur honest and urgent research into cleaner-burning energy. I'm quite optimistic, actually.

Farmers were saying two months ago they were planting less corn and soy this season before the flooding.  Ag Department charted the production as 8% less this year at that point.

The enormity of the alt fuel dilemma really hit me in the face when I was out in eastern New Jersey a couple of months ago on business.  Looking around at the population density and all the transportation needs, it really drove the point home to me of how much fuel is consumed daily in the U.S.

Contrary to this area, many homes are heated by steam or hot water in the northeast.  Many of those boilers are heating oil fired (basically non-road use diesel).  In order to convert them to natural gas, for the average-size home, it would be about $10 to $12K installed, probably even higher than that in some areas.  That's a huge pinch on work-a-day folk.

Ethanol is not a good heating fuel choice.  Diesel is about 130,000 Btu per gallon ("average" home heating system back east is going to be about 60,000 to 200,000 Btu) Ethanol has about 80,000 btu per gallon.  That would require larger storage capacity and it absorbs water readily.

Debunking the myth that someone was spouting from a Wiki article a week or so back about a gallon of ethanol containing 1.5 times "energy units", a gallon of gasoline is about 115,000 Btu.

A lot of people are going to be faced with a tough choice about what to do to heat their home when it's costing about $2.25 an hour to heat it.  I see another huge government program on the horizon to pay for new heating systems which would be compatible with different alt fuels and emission guidelnes.

People are acting like there is no on-going research into alt fuels, nothing could be further than the truth.  Great things are around the corner, but it takes time and we need to take care of the existing infrastructure of machinery, vehicles, and heating devices until something else more viable comes along.

FWIW, I really like the new Honda FCX Clarity.  The first one was supposed to roll off the line on Tuesday according to Honda's web site.  One thing I do like about Honda is they can build a hybrid or fuel cell vehicle and it doesn't look like a dorkmobile.

They are going to start leasing them in California and I guess spread out from there.  They've worked out a lot of the kinks and inefficiencies of the last generation FCX.

http://world.honda.com/FuelCell/

[waterboy]

There are so many factors to this "crisis" that it is indeed daunting. I'm not confident that drilling offshore is anything but politics. Energy companies already have offshore rights they aren't exploiting. That is not really what they want to do when this crisis is, among other things, speculator driven. We may not figure it all out till it forces us into decisions.

Isn't the biggest consumer of energy the automobile? If we were to seriously flatten that curve there would be more fuel oil/ industrial fuel available for the equipment and machinery you refer to, which would allow them more time to convert to other sources like ng, solar etc. What I'm saying is that our dependence on fuel is driven by our sloth with transportation.

I for one do not believe that energy independence is even feasible, much less desirable. It continues the existing paradigm of the last century and stunts our economic growth in a new world economy. Much of the rest of the world realizes that we are interdependent on all resources and are responding appropriately. Indications are, we are following a route that relies on expropriating other countries' resources by force if necessary.

As long as we dwell on silly issues like flags, gay marriages, cookie recipes, etc. we are doomed to have the solutions to more important decisions on energy thrust upon us.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

There are so many factors to this "crisis" that it is indeed daunting. I'm not confident that drilling offshore is anything but politics. Energy companies already have offshore rights they aren't exploiting. That is not really what they want to do when this crisis is, among other things, speculator driven. We may not figure it all out till it forces us into decisions.

Isn't the biggest consumer of energy the automobile? If we were to seriously flatten that curve there would be more fuel oil/ industrial fuel available for the equipment and machinery you refer to, which would allow them more time to convert to other sources like ng, solar etc. What I'm saying is that our dependence on fuel is driven by our sloth with transportation.

I for one do not believe that energy independence is even feasible, much less desirable. It continues the existing paradigm of the last century and stunts our economic growth in a new world economy. Much of the rest of the world realizes that we are interdependent on all resources and are responding appropriately. Indications are, we are following a route that relies on expropriating other countries' resources by force if necessary.

As long as we dwell on silly issues like flags, gay marriages, cookie recipes, etc. we are doomed to have the solutions to more important decisions on energy thrust upon us.

One thing for certain: higher fuel prices are  getting individuals to think about more fuel-efficient alternatives whether it's human-powered vehicles, riding mass transit, or buying more fuel-efficient vehicles.  

I know that was one consideration for me when I bought a motorcycle a few weeks ago (aside from the fact I just love motorcycles).  40 MPG vs. 16 or so MPG for me is a pretty good savings.  It's just not as practical when it's raining or I need the lugging capacity of a car or truck.

High oil prices will continue to drive consumer demand elsewhere, but until the alternatives are on a better scale of economy, there's a lag period.  

I was thinking last night there's usually a secondary and tertiary market for every vehicle and I'm guessing the average car these days has a life span of up to 20 years, so it's going to be a good long while before hybrids, flex, and fuel-cell vehicles trickle down to the tertiary market.  I'm still amazed at a lot of the beat up older, bigger gas guzzlers running around our streets.  I guess the replacement cost is just too high or options are limited for what I consider folks in the tertiary vehicle market.

[Gaspar]

He really needs to get a handle on his Volunteer staff!

USA Today

At a rally for Senator Barack Obama in Detroit on Monday, two Muslim women said they were prohibited from sitting behind the candidate because they were wearing head scarves and campaign volunteers did not want them to appear with him in news photographs or live television coverage.

The Obama campaign said it quickly called the women to apologize after learning of the incident. "It doesn't reflect the orientation of the campaign," said Anita Dunn, a senior adviser to Obama. "I do not believe that mistake will be made again."

[dbacks fan]

quote:Originally posted by we vs us

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

{Various Obama pics}

There.  all better? []

Hilarious, Ruf []

Thanks Ruf, I needed that.

[tim huntzinger]

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

He really needs to get a handle on his Volunteer staff!

USA Today

At a rally for Senator Barack Obama in Detroit on Monday, two Muslim women said they were prohibited from sitting behind the candidate because they were wearing head scarves and campaign volunteers did not want them to appear with him in news photographs or live television coverage.

The Obama campaign said it quickly called the women to apologize after learning of the incident. "It doesn't reflect the orientation of the campaign," said Anita Dunn, a senior adviser to Obama. "I do not believe that mistake will be made again."

Hillary-ous! McCain should immediately find some hijabbing womyn and get them in background shots.