Why do we need a new baseball stadium?

[tulsarufflebutt]

Why Tulsa needs a new bb stadium?  Because GROWN men need someplace to play with their BALLS.  []

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

Frankly, it's the folks like Friendly Bear who used to live in OKC who either died off or moved to Harrah or Yukon that made way for OKC's publicly funded renaissance... which included a downtown ballpark among many other perks...

You know FB, taxes are REALLY LOW in West Virginia... maybe that's where you belong..... hint, hint....

[)]

[edit: didn't mean to imply FB ever lived in OKC... it's just that the feelings of folks I know in OKC is that the rabid anti-any-tax naysayers in Okie City finally either died off or moved away... that's their story as to why MAPS finally took off the city started investing in itself-- moving a ballpark from the fairgrounds to downtown... sound familiar?]

The Tax Vampires, be they in OKC or Tulsa, never want to let go of a Tax once it's started.

The MAPS plan from the 1990's built on the growing popularity of Bricktown.

Followed by "MAPS for Kids", to keep the concrete flowing with a SALES tax to support public schools.  Not a Property Tax.

A Sales Tax.

That has now mutated into "MAPS for MILLIONAIRES" Tax Monster, continuing the MAPS sales tax to benefit the richest men in Oklahoma with $100 million in corporate welfare for the Ford Center and a $20 million NBA practice facility.

Spending $100 million to "remodel" a six year old Ford Center that only cost $90 million when new is the Height of Folly.

Coupled with another $60 million over fifteen years to Clay "Pigeon" Bennett, Aubrey McClendon and Co. in Corporate Welfare for the "Quality Jobs Program".

Ain't Capitalism Great?


[:O]

[tulsarufflebutt]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

Coupled with another $60 million over fifteen years to Clay "Pigeon" Bennett, Aubrey McClendon and Co. in Corporate Welfare for the "Quality Jobs Program".

Ain't Capitalism Great?


[:O]

And, your point is?

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

Did we need the Performing Arts Center in downtown Tulsa? No.

But it has been a great use of public/private monies and has completely added to our quality of life.

Same as this ballpark will. It will be a completely wonderful place for families to gather, a cool place to hang out with your beer drinking buddies, and a cool place to talk business or gossip with your friends and clients, all at the same time.

I agree we don't need it in the strict definition of the word. For that matter we don't need churches either. But I want to live in a town that has a great Performing Arts Center, a cool ballpark and as many churches as we can handle.

It will definitely be COOL as a open-air stadium from about November through February here in frigid winter clime N.E. Oklahoma.  

Bring a blanket with your heavy coat.

It will be used approximately 66 times per year for Drillers home games during the temperate months.

If reconfigured, it can be used for a soccer game.  Probably excess seating for a soccer game.

It probably lacks the accoustics for enjoyable open-air concerts, but we already have a new $140 million arena (for $200 million)for those desirous of an Arena style concert.

We already have a perfectly adequate PAID FOR stadium.  

When it starts to fall down due to neglect of maintenance by our Tulsa County commissioners, they we can consider replacing it.  

That's how the County operates.  Defer maintenance until a building functionally obsolesces, or falls into ruin.

That's how the current Driller stadium was constructed; part of the Oilers stadium literally collapsed.


[:O]

Got to love the Friendly Bear.

When he doesn't know a fact, he makes it up.

[:O]

Baseball is not played in the winter.  In fact, many baseball stadiums sit empty the entire winter.

[:O]

Making an issue out of the baseball stadium only being used when its pleasant outside is like attacking Tuls for having public parks that are primarily used in warmer months or attacking folks who have a Christmas tree, but only bring it out for a month out of the year.

The new stadium would also hold other events, such as the annual Bedlam games always played in Tulsa.

Drillers Stadium is hardly known for its acoustics, but it has hosted shows by the likes of Willie Nelson, Bob Dylan, and Garth Brooks.

You remember Garth Brooks, right?  The guy who wouldn't play the BOK?  He's played at Drillers stadium.  Which doesn't have good acoustics.

Why?  Because he could fit the right sized group in and wanted to be outside.

Outside venues usually don't have great acoustics.  Why?  Because they are outside.

But why would you care about the acoustics?  You won't go to the show.  You don't know much about what you spout off about, anywho.

If a concert or game happens without Friendly Bear does it make a sound?  Yes.  They have for many years.  

There's a great big world out there passing you by, man.

[:O]

You bought a ticket to hear a C/W Singer play in a venue that has poor acoustics?

And I'm the one who's dumb?

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by tulsarufflebutt

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

Coupled with another $60 million over fifteen years to Clay "Pigeon" Bennett, Aubrey McClendon and Co. in Corporate Welfare for the "Quality Jobs Program".

Ain't Capitalism Great?


[:O]

And, your point is?

The point:

Pimping politicians and their greedy, grasping plutocrat patrons will always invent endless ways to increase our tax burden for fabricated emergencies, crisis, "economic development", and other "feel-good" emotion-laden appeals for ever more tax dollars.

Therefore, we should be very CAREFUL before we fall for the Pimp's Pitch.  Otherwise, we might catch a very debilitating illness from the transaction:

TOO MUCH TAX BURDEN.

A new downtown stadium is UNNECESSARY.  The current Driller stadium is adequate.

Even if the Drillers move to Jenks, it will not cost the City of Tulsa much in lost current revenue, since they would be moving off of Tulsa County Property, not city property.

Jenks is NOT The center of geographic gravity for the Tulsa MSA.  The distinction belongs to Tulsa, as it is centrally located in relation to the surrounding counties.

Lamson knows that.  He's just playing along to see if he can get something for free.

Let's NOT fall for it.

[USRufnex]

But I don't want Tulsa to be "adequate"... that's the problem.

The stadium's close to 30 years old.  It's reasonably nice.  It's not falling apart... shhhh... RM's speaking...

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

But I don't want Tulsa to be "adequate"... that's the problem.

The stadium's close to 30 years old.  It's reasonably nice.  It's not falling apart... shhhh... RM's speaking...

If that's your wish, then you've received it in Spades.

Tulsa has bled good jobs starting with the dot com and telecom bust of the 2000-2001 timeframe, followed by job losses post-911 at our local aviation industries.

Our highways, roads and residential streets are in ruins;

Only four of our 22 city Public pools have city operating funds to open;

We're mothballing parts of our fabulous golf courses because of a lack of operating funds;

Our new debt service from operating funds will be $3.5 million annually for Mayor Taylor's new city hall palace;

The BOK Arena will be a new operating fund money-losing Money Pit;

Mayor Taylor railroaded the city council into paying BOK $7.1 million that the City of Tulsa did not legally owe until SHE unilaterally agreed to add the City of Tulsa as a defendant.

Every downtown city owned property will collectively pay $100,000's annually to fund the Stadium BID;

It is announced that The Rooney Family is awarded the new Driller stadium construction contract in a NON-COMPETITIVE BID a mere 12 hours after the city council approves the BID.

Is there any point in continuing a discussion about Tulsa's "adequacy"?

Welcome to the Banana Republic of Tulsa!

[:O]

[Gold]

If you don't like it, move.

The leadership is really trying to do something.  

Part of my joy is watching haters like you routinely get angry at all the good.

It's like a cherry on top.

If you have a better idea, try to implement it.

But you don't have ideas, other than wild stories that aren't true and making stuff up.

So, if all you got is crazy, please go be crazy somewhere else.

Try OKC.

[:O]

[TheArtist]

Funny, OKC seems to be doing very well and one of the most frequent comments they make about what is holding Tulsa back is our "rabid no tax" crowd. As low as our over all tax burden is, lower than any other state in the union, if the logic followed that lower taxes meant blue skies and prosperity,,, Oklahoma should be paradise with the whole world flocking here.

Just as you can over tax yourself, you can under tax yourself.

You can argue about how the tax money is used or raised here, but I can't see that you can really argue that we are taxed too much. Just sounds so absurd when we know the stats on where we rank.  

[USRufnex]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

Welcome to the Banana Republic of Tulsa!

OMG... you're worse than an Oliver Stone movie... geez FB, where's your tinfoil hat?!?  If you consider Tulsa to be a "Banana Republic" what does that make you?  A banana republican?!?

Tulsa bled jobs b/c the Enron scandal affected Williams Companies due to guilt by association-- so, bye-bye WilTel.... and layoff hell for employees at Worldcom, brought to you via Chicago's Arthur Andersen, which changed it's name (to "Accenture") quicker than one of Kitchell's nightclubs after a shooting...

FB- Our highways, roads and residential streets are in ruins;

No, they aren't.  Period.  I've driven them-- everyday-- in different parts of Tulsa... "in ruins" implies you can't drive more than a few feet without damaging your car... more tinfoil-hat hyperbole from you.

This happens every Spring, when the citizens complain about potholes which have more to do with the weather in Oklahoma than the money spent on roads.  An urban planner from OKC told me the dirty details... someone who happens to have more experience in this area than any of the nattering nabobs of negativism on this forum ever imagined... I've heard this crap since I was a kid in the seventies; back when KOTV used to have a segment called "chughole of the week"... to attempt to paralyze local govt based on the "fix our streets" agenda is just political cover for the usual naysayer suspects who've held Tulsa back for decades now.

FB- Only four of our 22 city Public pools have city operating funds to open;

More mincing of words from FB... the number of public pools open is ten, not four... and nine are free... 66,000 swimmers at $1 each would raise an extra $66,000... which would still be a lot cheaper than dropping off the kids at a movie... just sayin'...  http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080523_11_A13_spancl633760

FB-  We're mothballing parts of our fabulous golf courses because of a lack of operating funds;

Do you golf, FB?..... or would you support a new tax to fund operating deficits to keep all the courses open?.... or are you just blowing smoke again?  

Because I'm convinced that if the city chose to try to raise taxes to fund this, you'd ironically be telling us dupes how bad the local ballpark is... how Grover Nordquist of you.

FB--  Our new debt service from operating funds will be $3.5 million annually for Mayor Taylor's new city hall palace;

God forbid you actually tell the WHOLE STORY... nope, just characterize Mayor Taylor as "Queen Kathy" who simply needs a new "palace" rather than examine a measure that could save money as a longterm investment-- thank you, Jester FB.

FB-- The BOK Arena will be a new operating fund money-losing Money Pit;

The arena will host lotsa concerts the city of Tulsa wouldn't get otherwise... I'm not crazy about the glut of new arenas nationwide (point of diminishing returns?) that seems to be the answer to every city's problems, but TULSANS were desperate to vote FOR investment in new facilities, and this will be a big improvement over the old Assembly Center...

FB-- BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH, etc, etc, etc... throw every piece of crap you can think of at every possible investment of public funds hoping some of that XXXX will stick to the wall...

Tulsa is a city that needs to invest in itself from time to time... public money could be spent on the river, parks, TIFs that will contribute development that benefits the general public... it doesn't mean I will support every new Tulsa Project that comes along every few years, but I will certainly support some reasonable projects that could help "connect" downtown.... like the new ball park that will likely connect the Brady District and the mostly empty Greenwood area to the Blue Dome and East Village areas...  


AND SOMEDAY I'D LIKE TO BOIL DOWN ALL YOU GROVER NORDQUIST CLONES INTO A SMALL ENOUGH SIZE TO STRANGLE IN MY BATH TUB... [}:)]

[cannon_fodder]

Agreed Artist.  We are not over taxed per se.  But to justify more taxes one has to believe they will be put to a beneficial use.

I voted for 2025, I voted for the River, and I'll vote for other taxes I see as beneficial.  But you have to admit we give the anti-tax crowd plenty of talking points.  The BOk Center went from $140mil to $180mil.  The dams were/were not included in the funding.  Bell's could not pay rent so they're out, big Splash doesn't pay rent but can stay.

Just as "low taxes" doesn't equate to prosperity and a population can be over taxed, it is also possible to have taxes in the middle of the road and simply not utilize them well.  What I'm saying, is even taxes levied for a good purpose are not always used effectively and thus only serve as a drain.

My support of taxes is inverse to the incompetence of the government.  Thus, I have almost no confidence at the Federal Level, somewhat more at the State, and the most confidence at the Local Level were dedicated citizens can at least try to keep track of the money.  Though, that's not saying a lot.

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Agreed Artist.  We are not over taxed per se.  But to justify more taxes one has to believe they will be put to a beneficial use.

I voted for 2025, I voted for the River, and I'll vote for other taxes I see as beneficial.  But you have to admit we give the anti-tax crowd plenty of talking points.  The BOk Center went from $140mil to $180mil.  The dams were/were not included in the funding.  Bell's could not pay rent so they're out, big Splash doesn't pay rent but can stay.

Just as "low taxes" doesn't equate to prosperity and a population can be over taxed, it is also possible to have taxes in the middle of the road and simply not utilize them well.  What I'm saying, is even taxes levied for a good purpose are not always used effectively and thus only serve as a drain.

My support of taxes is inverse to the incompetence of the government.  Thus, I have almost no confidence at the Federal Level, somewhat more at the State, and the most confidence at the Local Level were dedicated citizens can at least try to keep track of the money.  Though, that's not saying a lot.

This is an excellent point that local conservatives tend to lose track of.  It is possible to be fiscally conservative but still  support taxation at the local level.  It's called federalism--local control of government spending.  The way I see it, local taxation for local projects becomes a question of control and efficiency, rather than a question of politics.  National conservatism doesn't apply very well at the municipal level.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

Welcome to the Banana Republic of Tulsa!

OMG... you're worse than an Oliver Stone movie... geez FB, where's your tinfoil hat?!?  If you consider Tulsa to be a "Banana Republic" what does that make you?  A banana republican?!?

Tulsa bled jobs b/c the Enron scandal affected Williams Companies due to guilt by association-- so, bye-bye WilTel.... and layoff hell for employees at Worldcom, brought to you via Chicago's Arthur Andersen, which changed it's name (to "Accenture") quicker than one of Kitchell's nightclubs after a shooting...

FB- Our highways, roads and residential streets are in ruins;

No, they aren't.  Period.  I've driven them-- everyday-- in different parts of Tulsa... "in ruins" implies you can't drive more than a few feet without damaging your car... more tinfoil-hat hyperbole from you.

This happens every Spring, when the citizens complain about potholes which have more to do with the weather in Oklahoma than the money spent on roads.  An urban planner from OKC told me the dirty details... someone who happens to have more experience in this area than any of the nattering nabobs of negativism on this forum ever imagined... I've heard this crap since I was a kid in the seventies; back when KOTV used to have a segment called "chughole of the week"... to attempt to paralyze local govt based on the "fix our streets" agenda is just political cover for the usual naysayer suspects who've held Tulsa back for decades now.

FB- Only four of our 22 city Public pools have city operating funds to open;

More mincing of words from FB... the number of public pools open is ten, not four... and nine are free... 66,000 swimmers at $1 each would raise an extra $66,000... which would still be a lot cheaper than dropping off the kids at a movie... just sayin'...  http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080523_11_A13_spancl633760

FB-  We're mothballing parts of our fabulous golf courses because of a lack of operating funds;

Do you golf, FB?..... or would you support a new tax to fund operating deficits to keep all the courses open?.... or are you just blowing smoke again?  

Because I'm convinced that if the city chose to try to raise taxes to fund this, you'd ironically be telling us dupes how bad the local ballpark is... how Grover Nordquist of you.

FB--  Our new debt service from operating funds will be $3.5 million annually for Mayor Taylor's new city hall palace;

God forbid you actually tell the WHOLE STORY... nope, just characterize Mayor Taylor as "Queen Kathy" who simply needs a new "palace" rather than examine a measure that could save money as a longterm investment-- thank you, Jester FB.

FB-- The BOK Arena will be a new operating fund money-losing Money Pit;

The arena will host lotsa concerts the city of Tulsa wouldn't get otherwise... I'm not crazy about the glut of new arenas nationwide (point of diminishing returns?) that seems to be the answer to every city's problems, but TULSANS were desperate to vote FOR investment in new facilities, and this will be a big improvement over the old Assembly Center...

FB-- BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH, etc, etc, etc... throw every piece of crap you can think of at every possible investment of public funds hoping some of that XXXX will stick to the wall...

Tulsa is a city that needs to invest in itself from time to time... public money could be spent on the river, parks, TIFs that will contribute development that benefits the general public... it doesn't mean I will support every new Tulsa Project that comes along every few years, but I will certainly support some reasonable projects that could help "connect" downtown.... like the new ball park that will likely connect the Brady District and the mostly empty Greenwood area to the Blue Dome and East Village areas...  


AND SOMEDAY I'D LIKE TO BOIL DOWN ALL YOU GROVER NORDQUIST CLONES INTO A SMALL ENOUGH SIZE TO STRANGLE IN MY BATH TUB... [}:)]

Oh, regarding the Energy Pirates Williams and Oneoak, they were much much more bad boys than merely "Guilt by Association".

How about pleading guilty to criminal offenses, and paying $100,000,000's of civil fines?

Ever heard of the "Get Shorty" Energy Buccaneer strategy, pattented by Enron?

Well, Williams and Oneoak had their versions, too.

FYI, Mr. Name Caller, the City operating budget is paying for only FOUR of 22 City of Tulsa public pools to be open this summer.

Same as last summer.

Four.

PRIVATE sponsors are funding another six.

What the city of Tulsa will pay for OUR share of the new downtown BID 6.5 cent per square foot real estate Stadium Tax tax would pay to open HOW MANY city pools?

Hmmmmmh?

[:O]

[Red Arrow]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

Originally posted by Friendly Bear

Welcome to the Banana Republic of Tulsa!

FYI, Mr. Name Caller, the City operating budget is paying for only FOUR of 22 City of Tulsa public pools to be open this summer.

Same as last summer.

Four.

PRIVATE sponsors are funding another six.

[:O]

4 by the city, 6 by private funds. That equals 10. What about the remaining 12?  Just asking.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Red Arrow

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

Originally posted by Friendly Bear

Welcome to the Banana Republic of Tulsa!

FYI, Mr. Name Caller, the City operating budget is paying for only FOUR of 22 City of Tulsa public pools to be open this summer.

Same as last summer.

Four.

PRIVATE sponsors are funding another six.

[:O]

4 by the city, 6 by private funds. That equals 10. What about the remaining 12?  Just asking.

The remaining 12 City of Tulsa public pools are:

CLOSED.

Until Further Notice.