Tulsa firm designing low water dams.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by SXSW

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

No, V-2025, Artist wants to make sure that my answers are proven incorrect even if others are misconstruing them and using "mass transit" terminology. Call them ferry boats, canal barges, patio boats, pontoons, whatever you wish Artist, just don't compare them with busses, trains and planes. They are tourist boats or "for hire" group boats, not a way to get to work.

From my point of view, flumes would be just fine for rafts, kayaks, canoes or other shallow draft non powered boats. If those are installed most of us will be happy. One could then start a trip at Keystone Dam and end up in the navigation channel if they wanted to.

A tourist boat is different. It was I, Artist, who pointed out that RPA does not allow powered boats on Zink lake. Even electrics. That rule would have to change to allow any motorboat. I assume they'll extend that to any new lakes. Its a control thing. But there are other designs for propelling boats that the family boat doesn't use. Hovers, airboats, or jet drives mated with shallow draft hulls like tunnels or step hulls. Some pontoons operate in only a foot of water. Though in some months the areas in between would be inaccessible by traditional powerboats, these types could operate.

Is it inconceivable to believe that a tourist entertainment boat could operate as conditions allow? If that means 75% of the year and nearly 90% in the pm hours isn't that conceivable? Pay attention. During the summer months the dams generate electricity from the Keystone Dam during the day. That generating water release takes 6-8 hours to reach Tulsa and Jenks. So, starting around 2pm in the afternoon and peaking around 2am, the water level rises in the river sufficient to operate any kind of boat. Except, without some manner to breach the low water dams, they cannot make the trip from Sand Springs to Jenks. I could have operated with a cabin cruiser on this river this last spring until today and been just fine as long as I never crossed the Zink dam.

I'll make this prediction now. There will be a tourist boat on each of the small lakes formed. The only one to turn a profit will be the Jenks boat and it will be subsidized by the casino, shopping areas and the city. The other two will fade away. All other fuel powered boats will be prohibited. Any boat allowed on the river other than the rowing crew support boats will be required to create no wake which means....no boats.

That is a shame.  I understand there are difficulties but it seems the potential benefits would outweigh the costs.  Here we have the opportunity to create something unique in Tulsa, a string of navigable urban lakes through the city, but can't do it without one thing: locks on the dams.  Maybe I'm not seeing the big picture here but it just seems really short-sighted not to do it.  If we want a river to just look at, fine then just build the dams as is and be done with it.  But if we want to actually create a destination with our river, create something unique and interesting, then we need to look at this matter closer and decide what we want the river to be...

I have this feeling those in control of the river, and the general Tulsa public, don't know much about rivers and certainly don't appreciate the Arkansas.  This is evident when the wastewater treatment facility is constructed along its banks and new development is allowed on the banks in south Tulsa that doesn't even face the water.  I think it would be wise to listen to people like waterboy who know the river but also to hear from those who know other similar rivers and live/work in river cities where they care about it/use it.  People from Louisville, Omaha, Chattanooga, Pittsburgh, Shreveport, our Arkansas River sister cities Fort Smith and Little Rock, etc.  Tulsa is not considered by many to be a "river city" even though we are on one of the longest rivers in North America.  Until the attitude changes and we either decide to USE the river or just look at it/not utilize it we will never be considered one, which like I said is a shame because it could be different...

/Rant Over

I dont think its just the locks, its the height of the dams as well.  I think waterboy is right that the one area that will for sure have a small "touristy" type ferry boat will be the Jenks area. But SXSW you have to realize the dam there will only put water only so far up the river, there will be several miles that will remain just as they are now, high running water sometimes, low to almost empty sometimes. It would take one BIG dam to get a lake that goes from Jenks all the way to Zink Lake. You can still use hover boats to go upstream and smaller boats to go downstream but if the dams have the flumes that could work instead of the locks in this instance since it seems to me that the kind of boats you would use a lock for to go upstream in, would also need more water in the river between where the Sand Springs lake ends and Zink lake begins.

[SXSW]

I was thinking about the possibilities for low water dams on a recent trip to the river.  I thought how cool it would be to, instead of building your typical concrete dam with spillway, instead build a dam that resembles a cascading waterfall.  Not only would such a dam look nicer but it wouldn't have the dangerous hydraulic underneath it.  Of course you still wouldn't want to go over it as it would be like taking on Class IV-V rapids but it would still be safer and more attractive than the Zink Lake dam, and could be a model for dams at Sand Springs and Jenks.  I don't know of any examples of communities approaching it this way but I'm sure it's been done before.  Just a thought.

[Vision 2025]

I was thinking about the possibilities for low water dams on a recent trip to the river.  I thought how cool it would be to, instead of building your typical concrete dam with spillway, instead build a dam that resembles a cascading waterfall.  Not only would such a dam look nicer but it wouldn't have the dangerous hydraulic underneath it.  Of course you still wouldn't want to go over it as it would be like taking on Class IV-V rapids but it would still be safer and more attractive than the Zink Lake dam, and could be a model for dams at Sand Springs and Jenks.  I don't know of any examples of communities approaching it this way but I'm sure it's been done before.  Just a thought.

There will be public meetings later this month to let everybody know where in the process we are and to identify the project alternatives and constraints on them.  I'll think you will be happy with the presentations... Cascade style wiers have been a given since day one.

[Townsend]

TW FB post:

Tulsa, Jenks and Muscogee (Creek) Nation reached a funding agreement Tuesday to build a $60 million south Tulsa dam, officials told the Tulsa World.

[Conan71]

TW FB post:

Yeah, not really "hammered out" as the 4pm update headline suggests:

Funding agreement reached on south Tulsa dam

Tulsa, Jenks and Muscogee (Creek) Nation reached a funding agreement Tuesday to build a $60 million south Tulsa dam, officials told the Tulsa World.

Tulsa's $30 million share of the cost would come from its $158 million quality-of-life allocation from the proposed Tulsa County Vision2 package, if it's approved by voters Nov. 6, Council Chairman G.T. Bynum said.

The City Council's draft Vision2 projects list includes $71 millions for dams, including $41 million to improve the Zink Dam and $30 million on the south Tulsa dam partnership.

Councilors are holding a public hearing tonight at 6 p.m. at City Hall and another at 6 p.m. Thursday before they finalize the list with a council vote following the second public hearing.

Jenks and Creek Nation officials haven't yet agreed on how to split their $30 million share of the cost, Jenks Mayor Vic Vreeland said.

Jenks has at least two possible funding options: its potential $9.2 million Vision2 quality-of-life share and tax increment financing, Vreeland said.

Creek Nation officials weren't immediately available for comment.

The tribe operates the River Spirit Casino on the east side of the river and bought the RiverWalk Crossing shopping, entertainment and dining center in Jenks on the west side of the river earlier this year.

If Vision2 passes, Bynum said, it will provide "an opportunity for an unprecedented collaborative effort" between the three entities.

"I'm encourage by the fact that no matter who you talk to ... everyone agrees that building those dams will be a transformative event for this whole region - particularly for the city of Tulsa, the city of Jenks and the Creek Nation."

Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=334&articleid=20120925_334_0_Tlaekn180013

Sounds like someone at the Whirled is a bit overly optimistic.

[Townsend]

Yeah, not really "hammered out" as the 4pm update headline suggests:

Sounds like someone at the Whirled is a bit overly optimistic.

Well, considering it depends on V2 funding...

[Conan71]

Well, considering it depends on V2 funding...

Well and the whole Jenks and Creek Nation working out their split of it either.

In other words, it's about as sure as snow falling on Oct. 15th.

[Teatownclown]

Yeah, not really "hammered out" as the 4pm update headline suggests:

Sounds like someone at the Whirled is a bit overly optimistic.

Forced feed....

[Townsend]

TW FB post:

The River Parks Authority is in discussions with the city, county and AEP-PSO to raise $1 million for temporary improvements to Zink Dam.

[Conan71]

TW FB post:

Wait... weren't there Zink Dam improvements included in V-2025?

[sgrizzle]

Not enough money to do anything


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[DowntownDan]

So $1 million worth of bubble gum to stick it into the cracks?