City Council - Driller Vote on July 10

[Gold]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

To the "no new stadium" crowd:

Could you please make a short-list of complaints/concerns for me.  Your arguments are all over the board, boil these suckers down so I can digest them. This is kind of what I'm getting:

1) No because it is a new tax and all taxes are bad
2) No because of the way it is being handled, too fast/secret and I distrust government
3) We don't need it, let the Drillers leave

Are you against development downtown or just this development?  If so, for the reasons above or others?  What remedies could you see, or are you just against the project in it's entirety?

The discussion is all over the board and very near to being outside the realm of constructive.  I understand you don't like the project, but please articulate why you don't and what can/should be done to alleviate your concerns.  Otherwise, your just complaining instead of trying to do something about it (and then you'd be like Inteller, and no one wants that).

Sure, happy to list the main reasons I think the downtown stadium is a mistake for the City of Tulsa:

1.  Our high maintenance mayor wants to indebt the city taxpayers in a downtown BID for THIRTY years to partially fund the construction of a new baseball stadium.  She seems to like indebting Tulsa's citizens for THIRTY year deals.

The financing of the move of the city hall to the OTC building is another:

30 year loan.  

With a 30 year loan, the interest builds up so that the total cost you pay is much, much more than the original amount financed.  That's called:

Interest.

2) The current Driller stadium is PAID FOR.

Debt-free. T

That is a wonderful, strategic position for a government facility.

Paid for by nouveau riche Oil Racketeer (and convicted Federal felon) Robert Sutton.  We just need a better class of Oil Racketeer here in Oklahoma today.

Today's new energy buccaneers like Aubrey McClendon want taxpayer-financed Corporate Welfare for their professional sports franchises.  He and his plutocrat cronies are getting $180 MILLION dollars of the taxpayer's money to move a basketball team he owns to Oklahoma City.

3) Driller Stadium is a perfectly adequate baseball field.

It has functioning lights.

It has reasonably good, sanitary concessions.

It has functioning, relatively clean, indoor bathrooms.

It has a scoreboard. Actually, a pretty good scoreboard.

It has box seats available for the local Patricians, so they won't be directly exposed to the local Peons.

4) The current stadium which seats over 10,000 is rarely full. When there is a big ticket promotion with Free Q-T tickets, or $1.00 beer nite, they fill up the stadium with 10,000 fans, or more.

Usually, there are 3,000 - 5,000 dedicated fans who regularly turn out.

The new stadium is reported to have only 6,200 seats. Tiny compared to Driller stadium.

5) SAFE, free parking is right next to the current Driller stadium, within EASY walking distance for fans.

It may NOT be either safe or free in the area where Mayor Taylor wants to build a new stadium.

6) It is more or less centrally located for fans to access via the Broken Arrow Expressway, and just 2.5 miles away from Tulsa's center of gravity.

A downtown stadium is even further from Tulsa's center of gravity at 41st and Yale.

7) Driller Stadium is not located downwind from an oil refinery, next to a busy 6 lane expressway, or in close proximity to The 'Hood.

If team owner Mr. Lamson wants to take his team and move, that's his right. He has only a year-to-year lease on Driller Stadium.

Tulsa can easily find a REPLACEMENT team.

When our original AAA Tulsa Oilers moved away to New Orleans, they were promptly replaced by the AA Tulsa Drillers. The door didn't even bump their butts on the way out.

9) There is a market for our AA-AAA baseball franchise in Tulsa. Not a great market. But, one that year in and year out brings about 3,000 - 5,000 fans out on any given home game.

10) And, the real money is made off of the concessions. People spend $6.00 on a ticket, and $20+ on concessions, souvenirs, etc.

I'm not sure Mr. Lamson really wants competition for food and drink sales from the adjacent Blue Dome or Brady entertainment Districts.

11) Wonder if this proposed stadium deal is making Mr. Lamson many money on the side on the construction expenditures?

Will he be a silent partner with the local Manhattan Construction cabal?  Their likely JV name?

Tulsa Stadium Builders?

Is this a contest for stating erroneous information?

The Drillers are considered one of the better and more successful AA franchises.  They have won franschise of the year several times.  There is certainly a very good and stable market for baseball in Tulsa.

The stadium is below the others in AA at this point.  Every team we compete with has a better stadium.

You don't know much about baseball stadium concessions.  Right now, the Drillers would hit a different demographic from the bars downtown -- namely families and old farts.  Those who would be interested in both the bars and stadium would likely be attracted to cheaper beer at the stadium (Lamson actually has one of the better beer deals in town).  

And that's where you really screw up -- you say that you don't think Lamson wants the competition from the bars.  Hello -- McBear -- Lamson owns the team and wants to move downtown.  It's not like the city is forcing him to move down there.  He totally knows what he is getting into.  That argument is probably the worsat I've ever seen from you.  If you've paid attention (you haven't), there are pretty good examples of a stadium helping a downtown area.

You contradict yourself.  You say that the stadium sells out with 10,000 a couple of times a year, but that the stadium, with 6,200 FIXED seats, isn't adequate (even though you admit there are only 3,000-5,000 fans at most games, which would seem to indicate more than adequate seating).  Beyond that, those are fixed seats -- I haven't heard a total number, but the stadium also includes luxury boxes, bern seating, and some sort of bar.  

What hood are you referring to?  Brady Heights, the up and coming neighborhood?  I wouldn't call the homeless shelter and jail a "hood."

Replacement teams aren't easy to find.  The Texas League is one of the smallest AA leagues -- only eight teams.  There is no other AA game in the region.  None of the other teams, which all have new stadiums, are looking to move.  You could say we would go up to AAA, but the costs probably won't work and again, there are only so many teams.  http://www.tulsaworld.com/sports/article.aspx?articleID=000429_Sp_b1klein

What oil refinery is near Greenwood?  There's a whole lot of real estate in between and at least a mile of dirt from the river.

Highway access is a specific complaint the Drillers have.  It isn't very good at the moment.  This move puts them right on the IDL in the center of the metropolitan area.

We established last night that you haven't been downtown in 20 years (if you live in Tulsa at all), so how would you know if it's safe?  http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10655

Believe it or not, people complain about the parking in the current location.  People in Tulsa just complain about parking.  It will be better than what they have in downtown Memphis at the moment.

Number 11 isn't based in fact at all.  Can you please cut the specious statements about people in the community?  I have no doubt you don't know these people, you probably don't live in Tulsa, and you are usually hilariously wrong.  For the sake of discourse, quit that nonsense.

You come across as a jealous weirdo that isn't very bright.

Kind of like Medlock . . . but without the MBA . . . oh wait . . . without the job on city council . . . oh wait . . . without any knowledge of Tulsa whatsoever.

Poor FB.

[:O]

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

What a bunch of whiners. In my estimation the only people that have a right to whine about this ball park are those that own property inside the IDL and don't want to see their property values increase.


None of the rest of you are paying for this. Stop crying.

Most of the people that are complaining are those that are sitting on derelict property doing nothing and hoping that someday that crappy rundown warehouse will make them rich. I have to agree with EN: "If you own property downtown...do something with it".

Is this good for downtown? Yes
Will it create infill and developement in the CBD? Yes
Will the ballpark bring more people? Yes
Can this revitalize but not recreate the Greenwood area? Yep, its for everyone. Its reconciliation.

You are dead wrong. This assessment will be collected on city and county owned buildings. Who pays for that increase? City and County taxpayers. So taxes are either raised to cover the increases or we get another cut in the services we're provided to offset these new costs. To spin this as reconciliation is completely reprehensible. It is morally and intellectually bankrupt.

AA is Correct.  

ALL City of Tulsa and also County of Tulsa residents will end up paying through the BID assessments.

Since there is a LOT of City and County property within the BID, we'll get socked.

$100,000's annually.

The Tulsa County Jail alone is an Enormous facility.  

Add in:

Old City Hall.  

New OTC City Hall.  

Maxwell Convention Center.  

BOK Arena.  

County Court House.  

County Annex Building.  

Tulsa City-County Library.

It's a new Tax.

Let's name the new Tax, shall we?

How about....

The Taylor Tax?

Let's say that the city and county have some outrageous total of square footage like five million square feet (which they don't have but for arguments sake), that times the 4.5 cents per square foot of space per year would equal a whopping $225,000 a year or about 40 cents per county resident, per YEAR. Only it's not that much because they don't have five million square feet of space, but you get the idea.

If you really want your few cents back each year I'm sure we can come up with a fund raiser here for you if you just promise to shut up about it already. I'll even put in the first five bucks, which ought to cover your cost for the next couple of decades.

[Conan71]

The arguments are getting harder to follow and seem pretty circular at this point.  I'm for the stadium and think this has been the missing link to a more vibrant downtown the last 20 years.  I wish we didn't have a gun to our heads to keep the Drillers in Tulsa, but this is the hand we are dealt.

I've also been a critic of V-2025 and the arena, but I take a look around at improvements which have been spread around Tulsa County and it's hard for me to say it's not been worth it.  Community centers, improvements to police and fire, education facilities.  It bordered on some broken promises on the Arkansas River, but it would appear that is sorting itself out without the additional $283mm hi-jacking.

One percieved problem I do see our city and county doing more of which brings out the most suspicion is these "sausage" projects.

They keep cramming more and more ideas into them that the price tag gets into questionable ranges.

Think about the streets: our estimate was originally about $1B, it grew to about $2B.  River plan?  The worse the poll numbers looked, the more projects they tried to cram in.

We are getting in a big hurry to trot out things and probably not doing our best due-dilligence and exercizing patience in considering all angles and all ideas from each part of the community.

[Gold]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

The arguments are getting harder to follow and seem pretty circular at this point.

That's what happens when the stadium plan was passed by City Council (even if it was a 6-3 vote, all on the council appeared to be in favor) and we're getting ready to break ground.  They'll say anything to either get attention or whine, because they don't know when the next opportunity will be.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

What a bunch of whiners. In my estimation the only people that have a right to whine about this ball park are those that own property inside the IDL and don't want to see their property values increase.


None of the rest of you are paying for this. Stop crying.

Most of the people that are complaining are those that are sitting on derelict property doing nothing and hoping that someday that crappy rundown warehouse will make them rich. I have to agree with EN: "If you own property downtown...do something with it".

Is this good for downtown? Yes
Will it create infill and developement in the CBD? Yes
Will the ballpark bring more people? Yes
Can this revitalize but not recreate the Greenwood area? Yep, its for everyone. Its reconciliation.

You are dead wrong. This assessment will be collected on city and county owned buildings. Who pays for that increase? City and County taxpayers. So taxes are either raised to cover the increases or we get another cut in the services we're provided to offset these new costs. To spin this as reconciliation is completely reprehensible. It is morally and intellectually bankrupt.

AA is Correct.  

ALL City of Tulsa and also County of Tulsa residents will end up paying through the BID assessments.

Since there is a LOT of City and County property within the BID, we'll get socked.

$100,000's annually.

The Tulsa County Jail alone is an Enormous facility.  

Add in:

Old City Hall.  

New OTC City Hall.  

Maxwell Convention Center.  

BOK Arena.  

County Court House.  

County Annex Building.  

Tulsa City-County Library.

It's a new Tax.

Let's name the new Tax, shall we?

How about....

The Taylor Tax?

Let's say that the city and county have some outrageous total of square footage like five million square feet (which they don't have but for arguments sake), that times the 4.5 cents per square foot of space per year would equal a whopping $225,000 a year or about 40 cents per county resident, per YEAR. Only it's not that much because they don't have five million square feet of space, but you get the idea.

If you really want your few cents back each year I'm sure we can come up with a fund raiser here for you if you just promise to shut up about it already. I'll even put in the first five bucks, which ought to cover your cost for the next couple of decades.

Eventually the total square footage of all the state, city and county buildings in the IDL will be computed.  I think the OTC center alone is 700,000 s.f., some of which might be assessable to the tenants, if they stay around to pay it.  

Another reason to move out of downtown?

Those property records may actually take some time to compile, since they are not currently being assessed a square footage tax.

And, you'll need to kick in a few more dollars for my generous fund raiser.

The rate is $.065 per square foot.  Not 4.5 cents.

[Gold]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

What a bunch of whiners. In my estimation the only people that have a right to whine about this ball park are those that own property inside the IDL and don't want to see their property values increase.


None of the rest of you are paying for this. Stop crying.

Most of the people that are complaining are those that are sitting on derelict property doing nothing and hoping that someday that crappy rundown warehouse will make them rich. I have to agree with EN: "If you own property downtown...do something with it".

Is this good for downtown? Yes
Will it create infill and developement in the CBD? Yes
Will the ballpark bring more people? Yes
Can this revitalize but not recreate the Greenwood area? Yep, its for everyone. Its reconciliation.

You are dead wrong. This assessment will be collected on city and county owned buildings. Who pays for that increase? City and County taxpayers. So taxes are either raised to cover the increases or we get another cut in the services we're provided to offset these new costs. To spin this as reconciliation is completely reprehensible. It is morally and intellectually bankrupt.

AA is Correct.  

ALL City of Tulsa and also County of Tulsa residents will end up paying through the BID assessments.

Since there is a LOT of City and County property within the BID, we'll get socked.

$100,000's annually.

The Tulsa County Jail alone is an Enormous facility.  

Add in:

Old City Hall.  

New OTC City Hall.  

Maxwell Convention Center.  

BOK Arena.  

County Court House.  

County Annex Building.  

Tulsa City-County Library.

It's a new Tax.

Let's name the new Tax, shall we?

How about....

The Taylor Tax?

Let's say that the city and county have some outrageous total of square footage like five million square feet (which they don't have but for arguments sake), that times the 4.5 cents per square foot of space per year would equal a whopping $225,000 a year or about 40 cents per county resident, per YEAR. Only it's not that much because they don't have five million square feet of space, but you get the idea.

If you really want your few cents back each year I'm sure we can come up with a fund raiser here for you if you just promise to shut up about it already. I'll even put in the first five bucks, which ought to cover your cost for the next couple of decades.

Eventually the total square footage of all the state, city and county buildings in the IDL will be computed.  I think the OTC center alone is 700,000 s.f., some of which might be assessable to the tenants, if they stay around to pay it.  

Another reason to move out of downtown?

Those property records may actually take some time to compile, since they are not currently being assessed a square footage tax.

And, you'll need to kick in a few more dollars for my generous fund raiser.

The rate is $.065 per square foot.  Not 4.5 cents.

So 6.5 cents.  [:O]  Oh, the horror, the horror . . .

I think we at Tulsanow can raise the money to do that if it means you quit talking about the subject.

And my offer of bus fare so that you can move still stands (but you probably don't live here).

[:O]

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

What a bunch of whiners. In my estimation the only people that have a right to whine about this ball park are those that own property inside the IDL and don't want to see their property values increase.


None of the rest of you are paying for this. Stop crying.

Most of the people that are complaining are those that are sitting on derelict property doing nothing and hoping that someday that crappy rundown warehouse will make them rich. I have to agree with EN: "If you own property downtown...do something with it".

Is this good for downtown? Yes
Will it create infill and developement in the CBD? Yes
Will the ballpark bring more people? Yes
Can this revitalize but not recreate the Greenwood area? Yep, its for everyone. Its reconciliation.

You are dead wrong. This assessment will be collected on city and county owned buildings. Who pays for that increase? City and County taxpayers. So taxes are either raised to cover the increases or we get another cut in the services we're provided to offset these new costs. To spin this as reconciliation is completely reprehensible. It is morally and intellectually bankrupt.

AA is Correct.  

ALL City of Tulsa and also County of Tulsa residents will end up paying through the BID assessments.

Since there is a LOT of City and County property within the BID, we'll get socked.

$100,000's annually.

The Tulsa County Jail alone is an Enormous facility.  

Add in:

Old City Hall.  

New OTC City Hall.  

Maxwell Convention Center.  

BOK Arena.  

County Court House.  

County Annex Building.  

Tulsa City-County Library.

It's a new Tax.

Let's name the new Tax, shall we?

How about....

The Taylor Tax?

Let's say that the city and county have some outrageous total of square footage like five million square feet (which they don't have but for arguments sake), that times the 4.5 cents per square foot of space per year would equal a whopping $225,000 a year or about 40 cents per county resident, per YEAR. Only it's not that much because they don't have five million square feet of space, but you get the idea.

If you really want your few cents back each year I'm sure we can come up with a fund raiser here for you if you just promise to shut up about it already. I'll even put in the first five bucks, which ought to cover your cost for the next couple of decades.

Eventually the total square footage of all the state, city and county buildings in the IDL will be computed.  I think the OTC center alone is 700,000 s.f., some of which might be assessable to the tenants, if they stay around to pay it.  

Another reason to move out of downtown?

Those property records may actually take some time to compile, since they are not currently being assessed a square footage tax.

And, you'll need to kick in a few more dollars for my generous fund raiser.

The rate is $.065 per square foot.  Not 4.5 cents.

So 6.5 cents.  [:O]  Oh, the horror, the horror . . .

I think we at Tulsanow can raise the money to do that if it means you quit talking about the subject.

And my offer of bus fare so that you can move still stands (but you probably don't live here).

[:O]

Please make your generous donation, on my behalf, to the following local foundation:

Tax-Me-More Foundation
c/o Mayor Kathy Taylor
City of Tulsa
Office of the Mayor
One Technology Center
In the Shadow of BOK Tower
Tulsa OK  74104

[]

[Gold]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

What a bunch of whiners. In my estimation the only people that have a right to whine about this ball park are those that own property inside the IDL and don't want to see their property values increase.


None of the rest of you are paying for this. Stop crying.

Most of the people that are complaining are those that are sitting on derelict property doing nothing and hoping that someday that crappy rundown warehouse will make them rich. I have to agree with EN: "If you own property downtown...do something with it".

Is this good for downtown? Yes
Will it create infill and developement in the CBD? Yes
Will the ballpark bring more people? Yes
Can this revitalize but not recreate the Greenwood area? Yep, its for everyone. Its reconciliation.

You are dead wrong. This assessment will be collected on city and county owned buildings. Who pays for that increase? City and County taxpayers. So taxes are either raised to cover the increases or we get another cut in the services we're provided to offset these new costs. To spin this as reconciliation is completely reprehensible. It is morally and intellectually bankrupt.

AA is Correct.  

ALL City of Tulsa and also County of Tulsa residents will end up paying through the BID assessments.

Since there is a LOT of City and County property within the BID, we'll get socked.

$100,000's annually.

The Tulsa County Jail alone is an Enormous facility.  

Add in:

Old City Hall.  

New OTC City Hall.  

Maxwell Convention Center.  

BOK Arena.  

County Court House.  

County Annex Building.  

Tulsa City-County Library.

It's a new Tax.

Let's name the new Tax, shall we?

How about....

The Taylor Tax?

Let's say that the city and county have some outrageous total of square footage like five million square feet (which they don't have but for arguments sake), that times the 4.5 cents per square foot of space per year would equal a whopping $225,000 a year or about 40 cents per county resident, per YEAR. Only it's not that much because they don't have five million square feet of space, but you get the idea.

If you really want your few cents back each year I'm sure we can come up with a fund raiser here for you if you just promise to shut up about it already. I'll even put in the first five bucks, which ought to cover your cost for the next couple of decades.

Eventually the total square footage of all the state, city and county buildings in the IDL will be computed.  I think the OTC center alone is 700,000 s.f., some of which might be assessable to the tenants, if they stay around to pay it.  

Another reason to move out of downtown?

Those property records may actually take some time to compile, since they are not currently being assessed a square footage tax.

And, you'll need to kick in a few more dollars for my generous fund raiser.

The rate is $.065 per square foot.  Not 4.5 cents.

So 6.5 cents.  [:O]  Oh, the horror, the horror . . .

I think we at Tulsanow can raise the money to do that if it means you quit talking about the subject.

And my offer of bus fare so that you can move still stands (but you probably don't live here).

[:O]

Please make your generous donation, on my behalf, to the following local foundation:

Tax-Me-More Foundation
c/o Mayor Kathy Taylor
City of Tulsa
Office of the Mayor
One Technology Center
In the Shadow of BOK Tower
Tulsa OK  74104

[]

So for $6.50 or whatever it is (again, not sure you owe the tax since you aren't in Tulsa, much less downtown), you'll quit this nonsenes?

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

What a bunch of whiners. In my estimation the only people that have a right to whine about this ball park are those that own property inside the IDL and don't want to see their property values increase.


None of the rest of you are paying for this. Stop crying.

Most of the people that are complaining are those that are sitting on derelict property doing nothing and hoping that someday that crappy rundown warehouse will make them rich. I have to agree with EN: "If you own property downtown...do something with it".

Is this good for downtown? Yes
Will it create infill and developement in the CBD? Yes
Will the ballpark bring more people? Yes
Can this revitalize but not recreate the Greenwood area? Yep, its for everyone. Its reconciliation.

You are dead wrong. This assessment will be collected on city and county owned buildings. Who pays for that increase? City and County taxpayers. So taxes are either raised to cover the increases or we get another cut in the services we're provided to offset these new costs. To spin this as reconciliation is completely reprehensible. It is morally and intellectually bankrupt.

AA is Correct.  

ALL City of Tulsa and also County of Tulsa residents will end up paying through the BID assessments.

Since there is a LOT of City and County property within the BID, we'll get socked.

$100,000's annually.

The Tulsa County Jail alone is an Enormous facility.  

Add in:

Old City Hall.  

New OTC City Hall.  

Maxwell Convention Center.  

BOK Arena.  

County Court House.  

County Annex Building.  

Tulsa City-County Library.

It's a new Tax.

Let's name the new Tax, shall we?

How about....

The Taylor Tax?

Let's say that the city and county have some outrageous total of square footage like five million square feet (which they don't have but for arguments sake), that times the 4.5 cents per square foot of space per year would equal a whopping $225,000 a year or about 40 cents per county resident, per YEAR. Only it's not that much because they don't have five million square feet of space, but you get the idea.

If you really want your few cents back each year I'm sure we can come up with a fund raiser here for you if you just promise to shut up about it already. I'll even put in the first five bucks, which ought to cover your cost for the next couple of decades.

Eventually the total square footage of all the state, city and county buildings in the IDL will be computed.  I think the OTC center alone is 700,000 s.f., some of which might be assessable to the tenants, if they stay around to pay it.  

Another reason to move out of downtown?

Those property records may actually take some time to compile, since they are not currently being assessed a square footage tax.

And, you'll need to kick in a few more dollars for my generous fund raiser.

The rate is $.065 per square foot.  Not 4.5 cents.

OTC is 700,000 square feet, the new arena is 550,000, the convention center is 200,000, the jail is just over 200,000. I don't know how big the county courthouse is but in looking at it it's not over a couple of hundred thousand square feet, neither is the library. All together you might hit two, maybe two and a half million square feet of city and county space. Call your part 20 cents a year. Five bucks should cover your personal part of the assessment easily for the next 20 years. If someone else will toss in a fiver we might just shut the Bear up about this for half a century.

And the other two cents of the assessment aren't for the stadium. The Stadium assessment is .04

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Double A

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

What a bunch of whiners. In my estimation the only people that have a right to whine about this ball park are those that own property inside the IDL and don't want to see their property values increase.


None of the rest of you are paying for this. Stop crying.

Most of the people that are complaining are those that are sitting on derelict property doing nothing and hoping that someday that crappy rundown warehouse will make them rich. I have to agree with EN: "If you own property downtown...do something with it".

Is this good for downtown? Yes
Will it create infill and developement in the CBD? Yes
Will the ballpark bring more people? Yes
Can this revitalize but not recreate the Greenwood area? Yep, its for everyone. Its reconciliation.

You are dead wrong. This assessment will be collected on city and county owned buildings. Who pays for that increase? City and County taxpayers. So taxes are either raised to cover the increases or we get another cut in the services we're provided to offset these new costs. To spin this as reconciliation is completely reprehensible. It is morally and intellectually bankrupt.

AA is Correct.  

ALL City of Tulsa and also County of Tulsa residents will end up paying through the BID assessments.

Since there is a LOT of City and County property within the BID, we'll get socked.

$100,000's annually.

The Tulsa County Jail alone is an Enormous facility.  

Add in:

Old City Hall.  

New OTC City Hall.  

Maxwell Convention Center.  

BOK Arena.  

County Court House.  

County Annex Building.  

Tulsa City-County Library.

It's a new Tax.

Let's name the new Tax, shall we?

How about....

The Taylor Tax?

Let's say that the city and county have some outrageous total of square footage like five million square feet (which they don't have but for arguments sake), that times the 4.5 cents per square foot of space per year would equal a whopping $225,000 a year or about 40 cents per county resident, per YEAR. Only it's not that much because they don't have five million square feet of space, but you get the idea.

If you really want your few cents back each year I'm sure we can come up with a fund raiser here for you if you just promise to shut up about it already. I'll even put in the first five bucks, which ought to cover your cost for the next couple of decades.

Eventually the total square footage of all the state, city and county buildings in the IDL will be computed.  I think the OTC center alone is 700,000 s.f., some of which might be assessable to the tenants, if they stay around to pay it.  

Another reason to move out of downtown?

Those property records may actually take some time to compile, since they are not currently being assessed a square footage tax.

And, you'll need to kick in a few more dollars for my generous fund raiser.

The rate is $.065 per square foot.  Not 4.5 cents.

OTC is 700,000 square feet, the new arena is 550,000, the convention center is 200,000, the jail is just over 200,000. I don't know how big the county courthouse is but in looking at it it's not over a couple of hundred thousand square feet, neither is the library. All together you might hit two, maybe two and a half million square feet of city and county space. Call your part 20 cents a year. Five bucks should cover your personal part of the assessment easily for the next 20 years. If someone else will toss in a fiver we might just shut the Bear up about this for half a century.

And the other two cents of the assessment aren't for the stadium. The Stadium assessment is .04

ALL state, city and county buildings within the IDL will pay $0.065.

NOT 4.5 cents.

For the next 30 years.

You might want to double check you S.F. on the Jail.

The Moss Jail be humungus.

On BKL, Inc. website, they say the TulCo Jail is a 750,000 square feet facility on TWENTY-THREE acres of land.

Ouch, that BID assessment has got to hurt the Tulsa County Budget.

And, the Tulsa County property owners?

Unless Title 60 Public Trusts are miraculously exempt from a BID tax.

They are apparently EXEMPT from COMPETITIVE BIDDING.  

They ESCHEW competitive bidding.

FlintCo and RooneyCo thank you.

And Thank you.  And Thank you.

Life is Good if you can Eschew Competitive Bidding.


[]

[cannon_fodder]

Lets operate on 3,000,000 square feet to be safe.

3,000,000 * .04 = $120,000 per year.

Tulsa proper: 390,000.  Of course county residents will chip in too, but to make the number as high as possible lets use just the city.

120,000/390000 = 31 cents per year.

Pretend that the entire amount, 6.5 cents, is assessed.  

3,000,000 * .065 = $195,000
Only city residents pay:
195,000/390,000 = 50 cents.

So, at worst... that argument gets you 50 cents per year worth of sympathy.  Over the course of 30 years you could get a real nice screen printed T-Shirt that proclaims your loathing for all things Tulsa.  Give me your address and I'll send you the 50 cents to drop that loser argument for this year.

You know what, put me down for $1 so I don't have to hear for you the rest of this decade. Either put together a coherent a relevant argument or drop it.  This is just getting sad.

The bear used to have a forked and rage filled tongue.  Now it complains about 50 cents a year.  Good god man, you could pick that up in spare change if you hung around the new stadium with a cup any given night.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Lets operate on 3,000,000 square feet to be safe.

3,000,000 * .04 = $120,000 per year.

Tulsa proper: 390,000.  Of course county residents will chip in too, but to make the number as high as possible lets use just the city.

120,000/390000 = 31 cents per year.

Pretend that the entire amount, 6.5 cents, is assessed.  

3,000,000 * .065 = $195,000
Only city residents pay:
195,000/390,000 = 50 cents.

So, at worst... that argument gets you 50 cents per year worth of sympathy.  Over the course of 30 years you could get a real nice screen printed T-Shirt that proclaims your loathing for all things Tulsa.  Give me your address and I'll send you the 50 cents to drop that loser argument for this year.

You know what, put me down for $1 so I don't have to hear for you the rest of this decade. Either put together a coherent a relevant argument or drop it.  This is just getting sad.

The bear used to have a forked and rage filled tongue.  Now it complains about 50 cents a year.  Good god man, you could pick that up in spare change if you hung around the new stadium with a cup any given night.

The city of Tulsa has about 380,000 people, of the 500,000 in Tulsa County.

City residents will absorb through higher taxes their share of the city-owned SQUARE FOOTAGE of all city buildings in the IDL x $0.065 per S.F.

Then, Tulsa residents, who are ALSO Tulsa County residents, will absorb higher county taxes on their share of the county-owned SQUARE FOOTAGE of all city buildings in the IDL x $0.065 per S.F.

The private property owners within the IDL will really get directly socked.  In effect, they will pay three times.  

1X for the property THEY own.

2X for the City/County apportionment that as taxpayers they will eventually have to pay through higher taxes.

3 TIMES.

Now tell me, I live downtown, for instance.  How much will I pay annually for my Liberty Towers 2BR 1,100 s.f. condo??

Feeling charitable, any generous donation you care to make on my behalf may be sent to the following local foundation:

Tax-Me-More Foundation
c/o Mayor Kathy Taylor
City of Tulsa
Office of the Mayor
One Technology Center
In the Shadow of BOK Tower
Tulsa OK 74104

[]

[chlfan]

This may have been addressed already but will the surface parking lots be assessed as well? At the same sq. ft. rate?Granted, there is no building on a surface lot but it is real estate and it is generating revenue.Just curious.

[TeeDub]

The City of Tulsa will owe $217,736.60 annually on its downtown properties, according to an estimate prepared by mayoral economic adviser Mike Bunney. County taxpayers are on the hook for about $138,000 a year. That's not counting land owned by various city and county trust authorities.

http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/PrintFriendly?oid=oid%3A24006

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear


Now tell me, I live downtown, for instance.  How much will I pay annually for my Liberty Towers 2BR 1,100 s.f. condo??

Um, nothing. Liberty Towers is outside the IDL and not part of the district.