Condos and penthouses, downtown Tulsa, midtown

[booWorld]

quote:Originally posted by TulsaMINI

Here's some pics of a Mayo apt.. Possibility? Don't know anything else about them.

The 420 Mayo website.

I think the first link might be the Mayo Hotel at 5th and Cheyenne.

The second link is the Mayo Building at 5th and Main.

[booWorld]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

...The Philtower has apartments available...

...The 12th floor having private terraces...

I think there is a roof terrace on the north side of 12th floor for all Philtower tenants in addition to the private terraces.  I think there are more private terraces on the east and west sides of the 16th floor where the tower steps back.

I like the terrazzo floors in the Philtower apartments.

[Red Arrow]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

I am sure we have very different visions of what is worthwhile and the kind of places we want to create for ourselves. But its also quite possible that somewhere between sprawling suburbia and concrete jungle, there is a sweet spot thats just right.

I think "worthwile" is perhaps too strong a word. What we "want" may be better.

I'd rather sit in the spare room at my computer in my PJs at 11:00 AM on a Saturday than be on display with the latest laptop and i-Phone in a coffee shop. What's worse, I don't drink coffee.  I have been to places with live musicians (not just rock groups in a motel bar). It's OK but most are just so-so. When I walk out my front door I see two huge trees that my dad planted 30 years ago. I don't want to see a StarBucks, a Subway, all those cute little shops along Memorial between 101st and 111th and Memorial (whatever they are), a Bank, etc. There is nothing wrong with them. They are within about 1/2 mile or so on Memorial. I just don't want them as my immediate neighbor. I have to go a small distance to businesses. You have to go a small distance to a park to enjoy what I have out my front and back doors. Although I personally consider lawn maintenance to be a chore required to enjoy the space around me, many enjoy the yard work as an end to itself. Not all suburbia is McMansions. Our place is about 1500 sq ft, evidently about the same as a $24000/yr apartment downtown.  At that rate,  you could pay cash for this place in less than 10 years. We do have a large lot and need a riding mower to cut the grass in a reasonable time. I have to admit that I have to walk a few feet to visit the neighbors, not just shout through the walls.  I prefer the walk. It would be nice if there were less lights around so I could see the stars at night like we could 30 years ago. I will agree that if you want to live five feet from your neighbor, maybe you should live downtown.  



Shopping is over rated as a way to pass time. I do admit to enjoy a stroll through an auto salvage yard in my younger days, wondering what caused someone to discard what appeared to be an undamaged car. Trinket shops etc are not a draw for me except as a tourist.  I haven't seen any previews of movies I wanted to see lately but there is a theater 1-1/2 miles away at 101st and Memorial.  I walk about 2 miles each day (weather permitting) during my lunch break. I think I could do 3 miles round trip if I chose to walk. I can enjoy a museum occasionally. Occasionally I'll get lunch at some place like Schlotsky's.  I don't eat very much fast food. I take my lunch to work.  I don't particularly care for sporting events. I did enjoy a trip to a Philadelphia Philly's baseball game in a previous life with other memebers of the volunteer fire company I belonged to. I remember the friends and the trip to and from the ball park more than the game. I think the Phillys lost.  I would rather spend $50 on airplane gasoline than $30 on a dinner in a restaurant. Parks are nice but I'd rather spend a Saturday or Sunday afternoon with friends at a busy small airport with little planes. (OK, Jones/Riverside by Jenks isn't that small but it's not Tulsa International.) There is another airport I also frequent on weekends out in the country. A weekend on the water can also be either exciting or relaxing, whatever you want.  Our family had a boat on the Chesapeake Bay (East coast stuff) during the 1960s.

I do have some references to urban living.  My cousin that lived in Boston had an interesting place in the Brownstone area near the Boston Commons. It was OK. The elevator to the 5th floor held about 3 people. She had five (yes 5) locks on the door to her place, all with different keys. I think the next street over was Newberry, a shopping district. We walked over so I could see the shops. Not much was interesting. She avoided the Commons area. Too many unsavory persons. The bar that Cheers was modeled after was a short walk away. We went to a diffent one, not loaded with tourists.  I was there over a 4th of July weekend.  I saw the Boston Pops at the Esplanade. That was awesome. In summary, after the new wore off, her life wasn't that much different than mine.

A college friend had a place in St Louis. It was all he could afford as a mechanical engineer. The most favorably impressive thing about his place was he was allowed to have a dog. He was in a densely populated area but still had to have a car to get to work.  Maybe there had been (real) trolleys there at one time but not while he was there. Overall, I was not favorably impressed.

I understand that you enjoy the things you do. I could enjoy them too, but only for a visit.

You added some stuff between when I wrote this and now. For some reason the computer logged me off. A few cuts and pastes saved me.

I believe you lump all of suburbia even more than I lump downtown.  Not here, but where I grew up in suburban Philly there were small mom and pop places scattered about. We lived in a single family home. Down the street and around the corner was a row of apartments above small store fronts. The stores included a grocery, barber shop, hairdresser, variety, pharmacy, beverage (beer store in Pennsylvania), Hallmark card shop. Around another corner was a deli that made really good hoagies. A few years later a butcher shop built across from the other stores next to a Mobil gas station which was adjacent to the trolley stop.  The next trolley stop up, about 1/2 mile bicycle ride or walk if you wanted, was another shopping strip. There was a real hardware store there.  I forget the other stores.  This was suburbia, about the distance from downtown Philly as Bixby is from downtown Tulsa.

When the family moved to 111th and Memorial in 1971, we were out in the boonies, sort of. We lked it that way. As the more urban than suburban lifestyle encroaches on us, I could walk or ride a bicycle to almost anything I need.

[TheArtist]

I like the term "urban village" to describe what I am talking about. Some of the places you mention that you do like remind me of that as well. I like Brookside, Cherry Street, Utica Square... When I talk of wanting downtown to have more living or whatever, its making areas like the Brady Arts, Greenwood, Blue Dome be more like Brookside and Cherry Street, having a similar "vibe" and activity level. Actually hopefully even more for there are different "scales" to that term Urban Village, but it still describes the balance and feel your going for, regardless of how tall the buildings happen to be. I have seen streets and areas in cities that have lots of buildings but because of the trees, nearby park space, etc. the streets feel cozy and inviting.

When I am talking about shopping, its not just for the act of going shopping, its about your daily/ weekly needs. Although I would indeed find it interesting to go a few blocks or so away and find say an art gallery district for example. But mainly its like when I stayed in Paris. Within walking distance there was a small grocery store, a place to buy clothes, the barber, a bank, places to eat and hang out, etc. It was like your classic main street just with a different backdrop and some really fancy architecture lol.

I can imagine why you like the suburbs, and not all suburban areas are the same. And yes I steryotyped you on purpose. For you seem to not be able to understand why some people like urban areas, and not all of them are the same. I think suburban areas can be either well done or poorly done, same thing with urban areas. The best cities offer the best of both for people who like each. I just want to see some more good, dense, urban areas, for those of us who like that. And there are those of us who do believe it or not lol. But if anyone picks on my choice... Its fair for me to pick on theirs. [8D]

quote:
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Originally posted by Red Arrow

I guess I'm proof of why suburbia exists. I can't imagine paying $18000 to $24000 or more per year for a stack of rent receipts. That will pay for a LOT of gas and parking fees. If that's what you want, fine. Count me out.

[Red Arrow]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

For you seem to not be able to understand why some people like urban areas, and not all of them are the same.

But if anyone picks on my choice... Its fair for me to pick on theirs.

quote:
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Originally posted by Red Arrow

I guess I'm proof of why suburbia exists. I can't imagine paying $18000 to $24000 or more per year for a stack of rent receipts. That will pay for a LOT of gas and parking fees. If that's what you want, fine. Count me out.

I understand why someone would want to do the urban thing, especially if you have the $ to do it nicely as the original poster here evidently does. For someone here (or anyplace) only part time, an apartment makes good sense.  It's obviously not my choice but as you can see in my original statement; "If that's what you want, fine."  As you also said, "But if anyone picks on my choice... It's fair for me to pick on theirs."  I feel the same way. Unfortunately, you and I got to pick on each other. Chicken and egg, which came first? Not necessarily you personally, but the forum in general seems to believe that suburbia will lead to the fall of civilization as we know it.  I feel like I got picked on first.

My vision of "urban living" comes from the pictures (and some personal memories passing through) of Philadelphia where the financially less fortunate lived.  I guess some would like that but I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Not everyone has the resources to live the good life in the city that Eva Gabor left on 5th Ave in NYC before being dragged to "Green Acres".  (1960s TV show if you are too young to remember.)

Apartment prices of $1500 to $2000 per month seem to be pricing what I would call normal working people out living downtown.  I don't believe that salaries around here will support that except for a fortunate few. The rest would be like my college friend in St Louis, priced out of a nice urban lifestyle.

Added Sunday:

Actually, $18,000 to $24,000 is a lot of rent to pay for that amount of square feet anywhere around here.  The price of living space could be the topic for another entire discussion.

Your idea of an "Urban Village" sounds very much like post World War II suburbia in some parts of the country.  Perhaps even more like suburbia between WW I and WW II in the Philadelphia area.  The town where I grew up had its areas of nothing but houses. It also had areas along the trolley line that I think you would have liked. Only a few of the trolley stops didn't have a small commercial strip on the adjacent streets. Other areas a bit closer in to Philly were a bit more dense and develoed earlier in the 1900s.

[azbadpuppy]

quote:Originally posted by TulsaMINI

quote:Originally posted by azbadpuppy

quote:Originally posted by Breadburner

Ok...Here it is.....http://www.sophianplazapark.com/

Nice building, but not rentals.

I know someone who rents there.

However, I will say they have been there forever. Seems those who are there, stay.

Its a condo building. I'm sure some owners may rent their own units out, but it is not a rental property.

[jne]

quote:Originally posted by jne

quote:Originally posted by azbadpuppy

quote:Originally posted by TulsaMINI

quote:Originally posted by azbadpuppy

quote:Originally posted by Breadburner

Ok...Here it is.....http://www.sophianplazapark.com/

Nice building, but not rentals.

I know someone who rents there.
I thought that building was for old folks?
However, I will say they have been there forever. Seems those who are there, stay.

Its a condo building. I'm sure some owners may rent their own units out, but it is not a rental property.

I thought that building was a retirement community?

[TURobY]

quote:Originally posted by jne


I thought that building was a retirement community?

Nope. I've got a friend (slightly older than I am) who lives there.

[cannon_fodder]

Red Arrow:

I understand where you are coming form, but consider this.  A young professional working as an attorney, engineer, MD, professor, or even some lab techs make $50,000/yr plus.  The apartments we are describing are in the general range of what is normal in the United States.  MOST American's spend 25 - 33% of their income on housing.  Consider that many of those people would have a roommate or a live-in girlfriend and the expense is a non-issue.

Now consider Artists "urban village" scenario.  Where your car is secondary if needed at all.  An average Tulsan drives nearly 15,000 miles per year, at the IRS cost rate of 55 cents a mile...  that's nearly $700 a month.  Figure we spend half of that if we have a downtown commute, so knock $350 off the rent.  In a real urban environment you wouldn't need a car at all (we're still in Tulsa).

Then what's your time worth?  The "average" Tulsa commute is 17 minutes.  We have determined that you live in the suburbs and thus probably have a longer than average commute.  So lets pretend it's 22.5, for a round trip of 45 minutes.  250 working days in a year (250*45/60) or about 188 hours of commute time a year.  Break that out monthly to 16 hours - my free time is worth $25 an hour (arbitrary number but very reasonable IMHO) or another $400 a month.

So ignoring the convenience some people find in urban living, ignoring the "coolness" or the desire to have a yard, and just looking at it financially - it can make sense.  Just those factors can slip the cost down $750 a month.  So the $1500 a month apartment can be seen as having a functional cost of $750 a month, probably about what he'd pay for a marginal rent house and the ability to enjoy a morning commute and car problems.

I split the difference and live in Midtown.  I have a boy and a couple large dogs, so urban living is not "it" for me.  But I greatly appreciate the concept. If nothing else, dense living saves the city a boat load of money in roads, police, fire, and other services.  So why not.  []

Not really a reason in and of itself, just trying to illustrate that there are other ways of looking at it.  It could also be that this person lived in an urban environment and is used to it.  Perhaps they want to be on the "cutting edge" of revitalizing downtown.  Maybe they work all hours.  Who knows.  But if someone wants to pay $1500 a month to live in an area of town I really want to see alive, I more than happy to give them as much advice as I can.

[Red Arrow]

CF:

We all need to remind ourselves that something is worth what someone who doesn't need it is willing to pay someone who has it but doesn't need to sell it.  I was told that was the definintion of "Fair Market Value". I don't know the original source.   In a group as diverse as this forum, there will be differences of opinion in the value of everything.

Having said that, I feel compelled to comment on your comments.  Hey, this is a forum and I have found this discussion interesting.

Most Americans spend 25% or more of their income on housing because they have to spend that to get what they want. Housing, like gasoline, is not truly a fair market item. Most Americans are in debt up to their ears.  They are not saving for retirement. They have no cash reserve for much of anything.  A young professional will probably be single, at least for a while. If they are renting, there is no mortgage deduction on their income tax.  By the time the Feds, Social Security, Oklahoma and deductions for 401K, health insurance and maybe some savings for items like vacations, new laptop computers etc are considered, they may take home as little as 50% of their gross income.  Now our $50,000 young professional has about $2100/mo to live and enjoy life.   A roommate now is a financial necessity if you want that $1500/mo apartment.  A live-in girlfriend may or may not help in that regard.  I wouldn't expect a person to furnish the apartment in contemporary cinder blocks like a college student (or is $1500 a furnished and utilities paid place?).  One goal of the urban lifestyle appears to be going out on a regular basis to the local entertainment and eating establishments.  Is this partly because one would go stir-crazy in the apartment?  In any case, going out is not inexpensive if the recent prices I have paid for a decent beer in local pubs are any indication.  Shopping in local mom and pop stores will be more expensive than the WalMart that you cannot get to without a car.   The price of housing could be an issue and we haven't included any transportation.  Add a car because you live in Tulsa and you may be out of dollars regardless of how much you save by not commuting.

I believe the IRS rate of 55¢ assumes buying a new car and absorbing the depreciation.  At 20 MPG, 15,000 miles is 750 gallons. At $4/gal that would be about  $250/mo.  My used car has cost about another $250/mo for the privelege of owning it.  I can do much of my own maintenance.  That saves about $200/mo over the IRS figures.  However, my commute is about 10 miles each way across south Tulsa.  I actually only drive about 10000 mi/yr including use other than going to work.  Although in a real urban environment you wouldn't need a car, there would still be transportation costs.  Bus, trolley, taxi fees could be easily $100/mo.  Renting a car for vacation or the occasional trip would be more effective than owning a car but still not free.   As a side note, when my cousin lived in Boston, she didn't need a car but chose to have one. There were things to do and places to go that public transportation didn't serve, even in Boston.

I am not self-employed and generally do not assign a dollar value to my free time.  Do you assign $25/hr to the time you spend eating dinner, watching the tube, going to the store?  I do assign a value when deciding whether to do a job myself or pay to have it done.  I recently saved about $600 on a brake job for my car by buying OEM quality parts on the internet and spending a Saturday installing them rather than pay the dealer $100/hr plus retail price for the parts.  That's more than I make in a day.  I'm glad I had a place to do the job.  I generally waste more time in a day than I spend commuting.  I wish I could get $25/hr for the time I have spent on this response.  I'm slow at this stuff but I try to actually put some thought into my responses.  (Except  for a few short wise acre ones.)

So far we have gotten the $1500/mo apartment down to $750 by adding a roommate.  I suggest that you could be partners in a car.  That would be more effective than carpooling since you would share all the expenses like insurance, purchase cost, and maintenance.   Would this $750/mo marginal rent house you mention be the solo price or the with roommate price?   We need to keep our comparisons straight.  I cannot argue the commute and car problems issue.

Dense living is more economical for the city than the wide-open spaces. Why does it cost more to the homeowner in terms of housing costs?  Some service levels will be higher but not always.

I think that the lifestyle you choose can lead to choosing activities that reinforce that lifestyle.  There is probably nothing wrong with that as long as you're happy with the choice.   The best way to justify your purchases is not to justify them financially.  If you have the money and want something, get it.   Not everyone is so lucky.

[TheArtist]

Mostly it is about the lifestyle and what people want. But it doesnt have to be as expensive as it seems if done right.

However, the kind of YP I am talking about usually make 80,000 into the low six figures. Plus you do get a lot of young couples who havent had kids yet, dont plan on having kids, or who just have one. Pluuuus, there is a trend for lots of retired and empty nesters to want to move to more urban, walkable districts. And as you know this demographic is going to skyrocket in the near future.

As for pricing, in many cities once this type of development has taken off, it has become expensive and has spread so far that it threatened to price moderate income people out of entire areas of the city, sometimes the whole central core is where the wealthylive and the poor have been shunted off to the suburbs. "great thing for a city to have that kind of density and high tax base though" So one thing we do need to start considering is making sure a percentage of new development is affordable housing. Its very important to have in the mix. Though Tulsa isnt in a situation where thats a real problem yet. It would be wise to start considering it now and pushing for the kind of rules and regs that will enable it to happen, especially in downtown.

[cannon_fodder]

Red Arrow:

Good counter points.  It would certainly be a stretch for someone making $50K, I was just trying to illustrate that it is a priority for some people and that it does have it's advantages.  I also agree that it makes more sense in areas where housing is not close-by and affordable.

However, on the car... no.  The IRS assumes it costs the average person 58.8 cents per mile.  That is the amount you are allowed to deduct as a business expense for driving purposes on any vehicle per mile.  You would make money on that rate driving a used Camry, and lose your shirt on a new Escalade.  But on average...

But I will acquiesce that the financial argument is a loser.  I was merely trying to illustrate a point, there are benefits to living downtown.  Plus, it's cool.  []

[Lora]

Nothing available at the Sophian Plaza, they have a few that are leased by there owners but none available.  

Nothing in Utica Place that is available to lease. I really like that place.

Philtower shows that there are heaps of 1 and 2 bedrooms available on there website, but in fact have only have 1 microscopic 2 bedroom available.

I have called Tribune Lofts and Liberty towers too set up a time to view them and haven't been called back yet! I love the slow, relaxed pace of Tulsa... but I am only here for 8 more days!

[AngieB]

This looks interesting. []

[Lora]

Ohhh...It is nice!