Tulsa History Repeats Itself - Again?

[Gold]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Gold

Charlie Norman was successful.

FB hates success.

It's like in Russia; someone suceeds and others assume mob connections.

FB has had no success through his hard efforts *snicker* and therefore thinks all other success is ill-gotten.

Friendly Bear should move to Russia to be closer to his kind.

They have no downtown stadiums in Belarus, come to think of it.

No local government trying to develop the city.

No evil airport trust or corrupt family owned paper.

Why can't FB go home to Belarus?

Poor Friendly Bear.

[:O]

I guess by your definition of success, anybody wasting their time posting to what is supposed to be a POLITICAL topic discussion forum on TulsaNow.org qualifies as a Failure.

I would like a fair deal from our city goobermint sometime.

I'm still waiting.

Time spent taking down Friendly Bear is time God doesn't take away from you; kind of like fishing.

I'm not sure what fair deal the government didn't give you.  Would love to know -- it would beat reading your nonsensical rants.

You just sound bitter.

You continually attack people of the utmost integrity.

Which probably means you have none.

[:O]

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

Norman is a terrific Tulsan. Wrote the code. Raised money. Always has good ideas. Knows how to mediate. Honest. Integrity.

He made only one BIG error. Ran from a lawsuit. Now we have domains, counselors. YECH. City ran better from the country club locker room.

My recollection is that Charles Norman left his job as the City Attorney back in the 1960's.

I believe the Charter Change, which brought about our current Mayor-Council form of city government occurred in about 1990, and was a settlement of the contemporaneous lawsuit filed on behalf of African Americans who believed that the Commission form of government had disenfranchised them.

As a result of the change, 1-2 African Americans have been city councilors EVERY year since then, representing Council Districts with significant African American populations.

Hey F Buddy....News. The lawsuit was filed elsewhere. Not here in river city. Just a pre-emptive stop gap to keep the city judgement proof. Don't interject a black white thing. Many municipalities across the country were under that representation spell. I believe the court system said the constitution does not deal with municipal issues of representation. CF can check my statement because it's based on sketchy memory banks (not to be confused with teetering banks).

Yes. Norman decided to go out into private practice several years after developing our wonderful code no doubt being the best versed with the most "ins" at various departments. But even when advising clients drew the line between acceptable and over reaching, right from wrong. A lawyer's lawyer. He just left out what the government's duties were to enforce in the code book. Instead, left the door open for lack of oversight. Hence, public diswerks. He also failed to keep other government agents from badly ammending the code over the years with new ordinances and careless stewards of our city as growth occured.

This town should be run like a lockdown. Well, kinda sorta already is.....

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

Norman is a terrific Tulsan. Wrote the code. Raised money. Always has good ideas. Knows how to mediate. Honest. Integrity.

He made only one BIG error. Ran from a lawsuit. Now we have domains, counselors. YECH. City ran better from the country club locker room.

My recollection is that Charles Norman left his job as the City Attorney back in the 1960's.

I believe the Charter Change, which brought about our current Mayor-Council form of city government occurred in about 1990, and was a settlement of the contemporaneous lawsuit filed on behalf of African Americans who believed that the Commission form of government had disenfranchised them.

As a result of the change, 1-2 African Americans have been city councilors EVERY year since then, representing Council Districts with significant African American populations.

Hey F Buddy....News. The lawsuit was filed elsewhere. Not here in river city. Just a pre-emptive stop gap to keep the city judgement proof. Don't interject a black white thing. Many municipalities across the country were under that representation spell. I believe the court system said the constitution does not deal with municipal issues of representation. CF can check my statement because it's based on sketchy memory banks (not to be confused with teetering banks).

Yes. Norman decided to go out into private practice several years after developing our wonderful code no doubt being the best versed with the most "ins" at various departments. But even when advising clients drew the line between acceptable and over reaching, right from wrong. A lawyer's lawyer. He just left out what the government's duties were to enforce in the code book. Instead, left the door open for lack of oversight. Hence, public diswerks. He also failed to keep other government agents from badly ammending the code over the years with new ordinances and careless stewards of our city as growth occured.

This town should be run like a lockdown. Well, kinda sorta already is.....

A local attorney named Greg Bledsoe, who is also an occasionally poster on this Forum, was one of the plaintiff attorney's.  

It was a local suit filed here locally by Mr. Bledsoe et al.

There may also have been other collateral suits in other cities around the U.S. that were litigating over the Commissioner form of local government.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Gold

Charlie Norman was successful.

FB hates success.

It's like in Russia; someone suceeds and others assume mob connections.

FB has had no success through his hard efforts *snicker* and therefore thinks all other success is ill-gotten.

Friendly Bear should move to Russia to be closer to his kind.

They have no downtown stadiums in Belarus, come to think of it.

No local government trying to develop the city.

No evil airport trust or corrupt family owned paper.

Why can't FB go home to Belarus?

Poor Friendly Bear.

[:O]

I guess by your definition of success, anybody wasting their time posting to what is supposed to be a POLITICAL topic discussion forum on TulsaNow.org qualifies as a Failure.

I would like a fair deal from our city goobermint sometime.

I'm still waiting.

Time spent taking down Friendly Bear is time God doesn't take away from you; kind of like fishing.

I'm not sure what fair deal the government didn't give you.  Would love to know -- it would beat reading your nonsensical rants.

You just sound bitter.

You continually attack people of the utmost integrity.

Which probably means you have none.

[:O]

When you quit drinking the MetroTulsaChamberPots Kool-Aid, you might awake from your slumber and realize that we live in a Banana Republic of Tulsa.

Only a chimp or a chump would want to live in a Banana Republic.

Or a Connected Crony.

[:X]

[FOTD]

Chimp here!

[TheArtist]

I will go with primate here. Btw, bannannas are one of the most nutritious foods you can eat. Very good for you. Plus if you eat one with a serving of milk, you get lots of protein, the amino acids in a bannanna can be combined by your body with the amino acids in the milk, thus enhancing the nutritional value of both. []

[Gold]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Gold

Charlie Norman was successful.

FB hates success.

It's like in Russia; someone suceeds and others assume mob connections.

FB has had no success through his hard efforts *snicker* and therefore thinks all other success is ill-gotten.

Friendly Bear should move to Russia to be closer to his kind.

They have no downtown stadiums in Belarus, come to think of it.

No local government trying to develop the city.

No evil airport trust or corrupt family owned paper.

Why can't FB go home to Belarus?

Poor Friendly Bear.

[:O]

I guess by your definition of success, anybody wasting their time posting to what is supposed to be a POLITICAL topic discussion forum on TulsaNow.org qualifies as a Failure.

I would like a fair deal from our city goobermint sometime.

I'm still waiting.

Time spent taking down Friendly Bear is time God doesn't take away from you; kind of like fishing.

I'm not sure what fair deal the government didn't give you.  Would love to know -- it would beat reading your nonsensical rants.

You just sound bitter.

You continually attack people of the utmost integrity.

Which probably means you have none.

[:O]

When you quit drinking the MetroTulsaChamberPots Kool-Aid, you might awake from your slumber and realize that we live in a Banana Republic of Tulsa.

Only a chimp or a chump would want to live in a Banana Republic.

Or a Connected Crony.

[:X]

I don't think it's a Banana Republic at all.

We do have a couple of those stores.

I'm more of a J Crew guy myself.

And which are you -- a chimp or a chump or a crony?  You continue to live here?

I'll get you that bus ticket.  Where do you want to go?  A city that doesn't invest in infrastructure?  A city without a locally owned paper and locally owned billion dollar companies?

OK . . . Pampa, Texas, get ready for FB.

[:O]

[Red Arrow]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

I will go with primate here. Btw, bannannas are one of the most nutritious foods you can eat. Very good for you. Plus if you eat one with a serving of milk, you get lots of protein, the amino acids in a bannanna can be combined by your body with the amino acids in the milk, thus enhancing the nutritional value of both. []

Darn! I just like bananas because they taste good.  Knowing they are good for me is too much.

[LongtimeTulsan]

Returning to the thread -- Norman and the special assessment. Any facts relating to this? I wouldn't doubt it at all and would like to know more about this.

Just because someone gives money doesn't make thems ethical. It is a complete conflict of interest for Norman to represent clients in land property or BOA issues. Incog staff actually confer with him during TMAPC meetings. He is a lawyer doing what he is paid to do. Ethical? Haven't seen any indication of that.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by LongtimeTulsan

Returning to the thread -- Norman and the special assessment. Any facts relating to this? I wouldn't doubt it at all and would like to know more about this.

Just because someone gives money doesn't make thems ethical. It is a complete conflict of interest for Norman to represent clients in land property or BOA issues. Incog staff actually confer with him during TMAPC meetings. He is a lawyer doing what he is paid to do. Ethical? Haven't seen any indication of that.

Mr. Charles E. Norman was Tulsa City Attorney from 1959-1968, after being an assistant city attorney for a few years.

I have not cared to research the exact date when the Special Assessments ended.

I have been told verbally by Tulsa residents who lived contemporaneously with their existance APPROXIMATELY when they ended.

Nonetheless, they did end while he was City Attorney.

If you Google on Charles E. Norman, you will get his e-mail address from his lawfirm:

Norman, Wohleguth, Dewey, Cheatham and Howe.

You can E-mail him and ask.

He might respond....  

[Gold]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by LongtimeTulsan

Returning to the thread -- Norman and the special assessment. Any facts relating to this? I wouldn't doubt it at all and would like to know more about this.

Just because someone gives money doesn't make thems ethical. It is a complete conflict of interest for Norman to represent clients in land property or BOA issues. Incog staff actually confer with him during TMAPC meetings. He is a lawyer doing what he is paid to do. Ethical? Haven't seen any indication of that.

Mr. Charles E. Norman was Tulsa City Attorney from 1959-1968, after being an assistant city attorney for a few years.

I have not cared to research the exact date when the Special Assessments ended.

I have been told verbally by Tulsa residents who lived contemporaneously with their existance APPROXIMATELY when they ended.

Nonetheless, they did end while he was City Attorney.

If you Google on Charles E. Norman, you will get his e-mail address from his lawfirm:

Norman, Wohleguth, Dewey, Cheatham and Howe.

You can E-mail him and ask.

He might respond....  

Oh it sucks . . .

to be jealous of everyone . . .

no need to insult everyone . . .

but when you're usually wrong, what's stopping you?

[:O]

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by LongtimeTulsan

Returning to the thread -- Norman and the special assessment. Any facts relating to this? I wouldn't doubt it at all and would like to know more about this.

Just because someone gives money doesn't make thems ethical. It is a complete conflict of interest for Norman to represent clients in land property or BOA issues. Incog staff actually confer with him during TMAPC meetings. He is a lawyer doing what he is paid to do. Ethical? Haven't seen any indication of that.

Mr. Charles E. Norman was Tulsa City Attorney from 1959-1968, after being an assistant city attorney for a few years.

I have not cared to research the exact date when the Special Assessments ended.

I have been told verbally by Tulsa residents who lived contemporaneously with their existance APPROXIMATELY when they ended.

Nonetheless, they did end while he was City Attorney.

If you Google on Charles E. Norman, you will get his e-mail address from his lawfirm:

Norman, Wohleguth, Dewey, Cheatham and Howe.

You can E-mail him and ask.

He might respond....  

Oh it sucks . . .

to be jealous of everyone . . .

no need to insult everyone . . .

but when you're usually wrong, what's stopping you?

[:O]

I'm certainly not jealous of Mr. Norman.  His legal profession lacks the predictable precision of my chosen field:

Nuclear engineering.

My moral grounding makes me prefer to retain a conscience and a Soul, rather than acquire the trappings of great wealth and power.

Nonetheless, despite your kind offer, I'd much prefer to stay off the Prince of Darkness' radar screen.

He's an extremely well-connected Rainmaker attorney.

He moves in the top social circles of Tulsa.

He probably helped get many of the judges appointed to our local, state and Federal bench.

He's also the Eminence Griese of local politics.
As you may recall, our previous Mayor came from his law firm......

[Gold]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by LongtimeTulsan

Returning to the thread -- Norman and the special assessment. Any facts relating to this? I wouldn't doubt it at all and would like to know more about this.

Just because someone gives money doesn't make thems ethical. It is a complete conflict of interest for Norman to represent clients in land property or BOA issues. Incog staff actually confer with him during TMAPC meetings. He is a lawyer doing what he is paid to do. Ethical? Haven't seen any indication of that.

Mr. Charles E. Norman was Tulsa City Attorney from 1959-1968, after being an assistant city attorney for a few years.

I have not cared to research the exact date when the Special Assessments ended.

I have been told verbally by Tulsa residents who lived contemporaneously with their existance APPROXIMATELY when they ended.

Nonetheless, they did end while he was City Attorney.

If you Google on Charles E. Norman, you will get his e-mail address from his lawfirm:

Norman, Wohleguth, Dewey, Cheatham and Howe.

You can E-mail him and ask.

He might respond....  

Oh it sucks . . .

to be jealous of everyone . . .

no need to insult everyone . . .

but when you're usually wrong, what's stopping you?

[:O]

I'm certainly not jealous of Mr. Norman.  The legal profession lacks the predictable precision of my chosen field:

Nuclear engineering.

My moral grounding makes me prefer to retain a conscience rather than acquire great wealth and power.

Nonetheless, despite your kind offer, I'd much prefer to stay off the Prince of Darkness' radar screen.

He's an extremely well-connected Rainmaker attorney.

He moves in the top social circles of Tulsa.

He probably helped get many of the judges appointed to our local, state and Federal bench.

He's also the Eminence Griese of local politics.
As you may recall, our previous Mayor came from his law firm......

Quite a market for nuclear engineers in Tulsa . . . cough, cough . . . such a noble profession for this area . . .

You clearly don't know much about what attorneys do.

I've talked to Mr. Norman a couple of times.  I must admit I was scared when he was called "the Dark Lord" -- but he seemed like a really decent guy.

Not sure what makes him bad if he helped appoint judges.  We have a pretty good group on the bench in this city.  When out of state attorneys come here, they are usually impressed with the quality of our judges.

And I'm not sure what's bad if he moves in the top social circles.

I didn't offer you anything, either.  FB, I think you're losing it.

Look, quit it with the cheap insults.


Everything you just said would indicate jealousy on your part -- wealth and power, social circles, etc. -- none of those had anything to do with whether Mr. Norman was a good guy or not.  And that's what I'm sayin -- just be respectful.

But you'd rather wear the tinfoil hat, I take it.

I guess when you want to be an expert on Tulsa, but have no real connection to the city at the moment, then that's about the only way you'll get people to listen, even if they're only snickering at you when you spout off.

[:O]

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by LongtimeTulsan

Returning to the thread -- Norman and the special assessment. Any facts relating to this? I wouldn't doubt it at all and would like to know more about this.

Just because someone gives money doesn't make thems ethical. It is a complete conflict of interest for Norman to represent clients in land property or BOA issues. Incog staff actually confer with him during TMAPC meetings. He is a lawyer doing what he is paid to do. Ethical? Haven't seen any indication of that.

Mr. Charles E. Norman was Tulsa City Attorney from 1959-1968, after being an assistant city attorney for a few years.

I have not cared to research the exact date when the Special Assessments ended.

I have been told verbally by Tulsa residents who lived contemporaneously with their existance APPROXIMATELY when they ended.

Nonetheless, they did end while he was City Attorney.

If you Google on Charles E. Norman, you will get his e-mail address from his lawfirm:

Norman, Wohleguth, Dewey, Cheatham and Howe.

You can E-mail him and ask.

He might respond....  

Oh it sucks . . .

to be jealous of everyone . . .

no need to insult everyone . . .

but when you're usually wrong, what's stopping you?

[:O]

I'm certainly not jealous of Mr. Norman.  The legal profession lacks the predictable precision of my chosen field:

Nuclear engineering.

My moral grounding makes me prefer to retain a conscience rather than acquire great wealth and power.

Nonetheless, despite your kind offer, I'd much prefer to stay off the Prince of Darkness' radar screen.

He's an extremely well-connected Rainmaker attorney.

He moves in the top social circles of Tulsa.

He probably helped get many of the judges appointed to our local, state and Federal bench.

He's also the Eminence Griese of local politics.
As you may recall, our previous Mayor came from his law firm......

Quite a market for nuclear engineers in Tulsa . . . cough, cough . . . such a noble profession for this area . . .

You clearly don't know much about what attorneys do.

I've talked to Mr. Norman a couple of times.  I must admit I was scared when he was called "the Dark Lord" -- but he seemed like a really decent guy.

Not sure what makes him bad if he helped appoint judges.  We have a pretty good group on the bench in this city.  When out of state attorneys come here, they are usually impressed with the quality of our judges.

And I'm not sure what's bad if he moves in the top social circles.

I didn't offer you anything, either.  FB, I think you're losing it.

Look, quit it with the cheap insults.


Everything you just said would indicate jealousy on your part -- wealth and power, social circles, etc. -- none of those had anything to do with whether Mr. Norman was a good guy or not.  And that's what I'm sayin -- just be respectful.

But you'd rather wear the tinfoil hat, I take it.

I guess when you want to be an expert on Tulsa, but have no real connection to the city at the moment, then that's about the only way you'll get people to listen, even if they're only snickering at you when you spout off.

[:O]

If someone helped engineer the elimination of the Special Assessment, and by doing so shifted the tax burden over to the financial detriment of the vast majority of the citizens of Tulsa, and simultaneously eliminated the burden from the landowners/developers/builders to fatten their profit margins, then I think it is readily clear about the state of that person's conscience.

Note to Gold:  

The Itty Bitty Third Penny, first enacted in 1980 to help catch up about 15 years of local road improvement underfunding, has picked the pockets of Tulsans of over $1.4 BILLION dollars.

Ouch!

[Gold]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by Gold

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

quote:Originally posted by LongtimeTulsan

Returning to the thread -- Norman and the special assessment. Any facts relating to this? I wouldn't doubt it at all and would like to know more about this.

Just because someone gives money doesn't make thems ethical. It is a complete conflict of interest for Norman to represent clients in land property or BOA issues. Incog staff actually confer with him during TMAPC meetings. He is a lawyer doing what he is paid to do. Ethical? Haven't seen any indication of that.

Mr. Charles E. Norman was Tulsa City Attorney from 1959-1968, after being an assistant city attorney for a few years.

I have not cared to research the exact date when the Special Assessments ended.

I have been told verbally by Tulsa residents who lived contemporaneously with their existance APPROXIMATELY when they ended.

Nonetheless, they did end while he was City Attorney.

If you Google on Charles E. Norman, you will get his e-mail address from his lawfirm:

Norman, Wohleguth, Dewey, Cheatham and Howe.

You can E-mail him and ask.

He might respond....  

Oh it sucks . . .

to be jealous of everyone . . .

no need to insult everyone . . .

but when you're usually wrong, what's stopping you?

[:O]

I'm certainly not jealous of Mr. Norman.  The legal profession lacks the predictable precision of my chosen field:

Nuclear engineering.

My moral grounding makes me prefer to retain a conscience rather than acquire great wealth and power.

Nonetheless, despite your kind offer, I'd much prefer to stay off the Prince of Darkness' radar screen.

He's an extremely well-connected Rainmaker attorney.

He moves in the top social circles of Tulsa.

He probably helped get many of the judges appointed to our local, state and Federal bench.

He's also the Eminence Griese of local politics.
As you may recall, our previous Mayor came from his law firm......

Quite a market for nuclear engineers in Tulsa . . . cough, cough . . . such a noble profession for this area . . .

You clearly don't know much about what attorneys do.

I've talked to Mr. Norman a couple of times.  I must admit I was scared when he was called "the Dark Lord" -- but he seemed like a really decent guy.

Not sure what makes him bad if he helped appoint judges.  We have a pretty good group on the bench in this city.  When out of state attorneys come here, they are usually impressed with the quality of our judges.

And I'm not sure what's bad if he moves in the top social circles.

I didn't offer you anything, either.  FB, I think you're losing it.

Look, quit it with the cheap insults.


Everything you just said would indicate jealousy on your part -- wealth and power, social circles, etc. -- none of those had anything to do with whether Mr. Norman was a good guy or not.  And that's what I'm sayin -- just be respectful.

But you'd rather wear the tinfoil hat, I take it.

I guess when you want to be an expert on Tulsa, but have no real connection to the city at the moment, then that's about the only way you'll get people to listen, even if they're only snickering at you when you spout off.

[:O]

If someone helped engineer the elimination of the Special Assessment, and by doing so shifted the tax burden over to the financial detriment of the vast majority of the citizens of Tulsa, and simultaneously eliminated the burden from the landowners/developers/builders to fatten their profit margins, then I think it is readily clear about the state of that person's conscience.

Note to Gold:  

The Itty Bitty Third Penny, first enacted in 1980 to help catch up about 15 years of local road improvement underfunding, has picked the pockets of Tulsans of over $1.4 BILLION dollars.

Ouch!

You don't like the policy.  Great.

If it's so bad, move (I think you already did that).

Even if that's the case, there's no reason to call the guy out.  You have no idea if he's a good guy or not.  You just don't like the policy.

But, whoever scorned you long ago, or maybe just your Paul Tay-like need for attention, dictates that you always attack the person.

You sound confused today.  First it was the hilarious bit about Lamson not wanting to compete with the bars downtown (even though he wants to move his team there), now this bit of confusion.

It's good for entertainment I guess, but not so much for serious political discussion.

Poor FB.

[:O]