Is Tulsa just a poor mans Fort Worth?

[Renaissance]

Don't forget that TCU is like three times the size of TU.

USRufnex I think you perceive a lot more snobbery coming from that school than actually exists.  You're sure down on the little place--you know it has less than 3000 students, right?  Only about 800 more than Broken Arrow High School?

That said, I count myself among those disappointed with what TU did on 11th St.  Instead of taking the opportunity to create a semblance of neighborhood synergy and openness, the school built suburban-style apartment modules and gated them off from the rest of Route 66.  Quite a shame if you ask me.

[USRufnex]

Umm. Yeah.

TU has the smallest enrollment of any school playing NCAA D-1 football.
So maybe TU owes more to the city of Tulsa and its citizens than the other way around.

[bugo]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex
TCU has roughly DOUBLE the number of students compared to TU, yet doesn't label itself "Ft Worth Univ"-- my alma mater, OCU, has a tiny fraction of the endowment TU has, yet the OC stands for Oklahoma City, while there's the quaint yet little known fact that the "T" in Univ of Tulsa stands for "THE"....

This made me think of something I've often wondered about.  Why do they call the University of Oklahoma "OU"?  Shouldn't it be "UofO" or "UO"?

[bugo]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder
1) Well, lets start with what you have wrong.  The "T" is not to delineate it as "The" University.  But thanks for assuming we are pompous.  

UT in this part of the world means "University of Texas."  Not far East of here it means "University of Tennessee."  In fact, aTm fans decry their foes in Texas by calling them t.u. denying them the right of being THE University of Texas.  Texas fans claim t.u. simply stands for "The University."

I've noticed the end zones in College Station say "Texas Aggies".  Does aggy really think they're the major public university in Texas?  After all,  the field in Stillwater doesn't say "Oklahoma Cowboys".

quote:
TU plays top tier athletics in 18 different sports. Winning our conference championships more than any other school in the nation over the last 3 years.  Soccer is free and we were ranked this year.  A football game (we ended the season ranked #25)

Who ranked Tulsa 25?  They got 4 votes in the AP poll and 5 in the USA Today poll:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/rankingsindex

[deinstein]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

Don't forget that TCU is like three times the size of TU.

Don't you think that has more to do with TCU simply being a more desirable place to go? Because I do.

It's in a city I think is currently leaps and bounds ahead of Tulsa (as I suggest in my thread title), it's got a much better athletic program than TU (Sorry, I don't see TU throwing any Ladainian Tomlinson's on the field) and they are both about on par academically (US News has TU #91 & TCU #108 overall).

[deinstein]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex
[brTU has the smallest enrollment of any school playing NCAA D-1 football.

Don't get them started on this. They legitimately think they deserve 1 and 1 game contracts with Oklahoma State.

[bigdtottown]

This has taken an interesting turn.  TU has always struck me as being "in" Tulsa but not really "part of" Tulsa. This is in contrast to SMU and TCU which seem to be more integrated into their respective communities on a day to day basis, SMU in particular.  This certainly may be influenced by the fact that I graduated from SMU and live in University Park but still, it seems like there's a lot more going on in both Dallas and Ft. Worth that are driven by the two schools.  TU is a fine school but sometimes I get the impression they'd prefer to be in Boston! []

[cannon_fodder]

First, sorry for the really long post.  There was tons brought up.

And to clarify:  I do not think The University of Tulsa is perfect.  They could make their campus more community friendly (gates) and hopefully will increase density in the future.  They are not a Harvard in academics nor an OU in athletics.  I don't harbor illusions.

But I am proud of Tulsa's University and the school that I graduated from and I do think it is under appreciated in the community.  Likely as much a problem created by the University.  So sorry if I seem defensive.

quote:Originally posted by deinstein
Well, what positive impact does TU have on the area? I don't see it.

This is what I was responding to.  You had 3 or 4 posts talking about how TU does nothing for the area or the community.  That TU was a pompous institution that is a negative for our community.  You did not argue that OCU and TCU were better for the community, you argued that they were positive and TU was negative.

I responded in great detail about what positive aspects the University of Tulsa provides for our community.  I stated facts about the school I went to in order to denounce your ramblings with one shot across the bow of another institution (which you brought up).  I'm not sure how that makes me or any other TU Alum pompous.  It seems like the response you were challenging people for.

To address the newly raised points (not all of these where by you I realize):

1) Over funded athletics?

TCU:  $39,000,000
OSU:  $41,000,000
OU:  $69,000,000
TU: $24,000,000

First, I'm not sure why you care what TU budgets for their athletics.  But more on point, how can you claim their athletics are OVERfunded?  They are in the very bottom of funding for schools with as many D-I teams as they support yet win more conference championships.  Your statement that they over fund athletics is simply not true.
http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/search.asp

2) The "T" in "TU."  So some guy said it stood for "The" and therefor University of Tulsa is a pompous institution.  I gave you the reasoning I was given by the Dean of the Law school and every other alumni I have talked to and it makes perfect sense to me.  If you still choose to believe the former I can not stop you (insert explanation here, "I don't believe you so your pompous!").  But I fail to see how that reflects on the institution.

You realize "THE University" appears on nothing I have ever seen.    Helmets, banners, signs, literature all say "Tulsa" on them.  Shirts that say "TU" say "The University of Tulsa" underneath them.  When they run the flags out on the field they read "TULSA."  The official logo says "Tulsa."  

Point me to something that says "The University" and leaves of "of Tulsa" unless it is using a generic term.  Just because someone says it, does not make it so.  GO forth and fund me something that says "TU:  THE University" in an official capacity and I'll buy it.  I have just never heard that before nor ever seen it, in spite of graduating from there, holding season tickets, and contributing to fund raisers.

3)

quote:So maybe TU owes more to the city of Tulsa and its citizens than the other way around.

You make it sound like I am arguing that Tulsa is not getting what it deserves, but I don't believe anyone in here has argued that the community owes anything to TU.  My only gripe is  the overwhelming view of the citizens that Tulsa is "other people" and a detriment to the community.  Hence, I am doing my best to deny that.

4) Eminent Domain

Very little property was actually acquired by eminent domain.  The vast majority of property was purchased outright, and at a premium.  Most of the businesses that were moved were sold from underneath the business owners (they leased) space.  That includes the METRO DINER.  Metro Diner did not own the land, and TU paid $800,000 for the 1/3 acres lot (that's not a fair price?).  They also settled with the owners of the business... to whom they owed nothing.

However, I agree that the gates they are putting up do not create a welcoming atmosphere.  They do, however, stop people from breaking in to students cars.  The same reason they blocked off multiple entrances to parking lots.  Students and visitors alike are annoyed by these actions (having to walk around gates/exit from the other end of the lot) but they are labeled as "safety" factors as Universities are rated on the amount of crime on campus (and numerically a car burglary counts as much as a murder).

5) Development/Parking

For private development, Barnes and Noble nor any other significant retailer expressed interest.  For that matter, TU does not control 15th and Delaware. At 11th and Delaware there would not be near enough parking available to meet city requirements.  There are bookstores, eateries, coffee shops, and even a bar already on campus too boot.  So it seems unlikely that more would want to do in nearby.

Basically, The area is highly developed - the University can either grow itself or grow private enterprise.  If private enterprise wishes to enter the area there are plenty of spaces they could purchase to do so.  Contiguous land in that area is simply not easy to come by.

If structures were built that were larger than 3 stories more people would complain that they were ruining the character of the area than complain about it not being dense enough.  It's simply a no win situation.  No matter what they do they lose:  before the expansion they were mocked as "not even noticeable" and "ugly."  Without apartments they were just a "commuter campus."  When their athletic teams were not good they "shouldn't bother playing."  Now they are land whores with suburban apartments who over-fund athletics.  

And for parking garages... many Universities have this debate.  A parking garage can cost as much as $15,000 per space.  Generally land values have to be over $1,000,000 an acre to make it worthwhile to even consider.  A number which is not even approached in the area.

To do any good we would need at least 3,000 parking space. Costing at least $24,000,000 - nearly as much as the latest phase of stadium renovation.  Fund raising for a parking garage is harder than a stadium.  And, the argument goes, it wouldn't solve the problem, could increase crime, and creates more of a hassle on game days.

It simply isn't practical, as much as it would be useful.  Underground parking is even more expensive.  

I would love to see some structured parking, more density, and private growth in the area.  But those items don't get fund raising support and there is no public funds available.   I hope the density grows to support it, but it's not there yet.

6) Sports

Bugo:  as a matter of correction, I can not find where Tulsa football ended ranked 25th.  I thought for some reason that we drew a computer ranking of 25th but must have been mistaken.  We were ranked #40 in the BCS poll last year.  We were #25 at the end of the 2006 season.

But unless you are willing to concede that OSU is not a top caliber team (not ranked in BCS poll at all, no votes), my point on quality football in Tulsa still stands.

Per TCU, TCU certainly has been dominant in football so far this decade and done well long term.  But don't sell us short... both our teams have been in the Sugar Bowl, Orange Bowl, and Cotton bowls numerous times.  In the NFL Hall of Fame there are 2 players from TCU, 3 from Tulsa (3 from OU, 2 from OSU).  But I agree that TCU's football has done very well historically and been resurgent lately.  I'm happy we are on the path to mimic their success by playing for conference titles, beating NCAA records, winning bowl games, and posting 10 win seasons.

In basketball TCU's history doesn't live up, or many other areas for that matter.  Tulsa has won conference titles in rowing, soccer, tennis (one of if not THE best tennis facility at a college), football, and womens basketball in the last 4 years.  More conference titles in the last 5 years than any other school in the nation.  I'd say we hold our own, particularly for our size.

Basically, if sports success is a sign of a good University Tulsa is doing just fine.  For money put in I'd venture to guess we do the best in the nation.  Our football team is consistently listed as a favorite non-BCS team to play in a BCS bowl.  We are given the best chance of going undefeated in the nation according to several ESPN talking heads.  Our basketball team is certainly on the rise and gaining international attention (China, Canada, Jamaica).  We're not OU or Duke and we don't pretend to be.  But don't sell us short.

I'm an unabashed Tulsa sports fan, my zeal probably interferes with my logic in this regard far too often but I'd be happy to discuss it more in the Sports blog.  If you aren't excited about TU athletics you just haven't been paying attention.  More than happy to discuss it further.

7) Admissions/Performance (comparison about request)

TU:
64% in the top 10% of their class
ACT 27 (Median 1st year student)
SAT 585
49% admission rate

TCU:
30% in the top 10%
ACT 25.5
SAT 575
49% Admission rate

OCU:
30% in the top 10%
ACT 24.5
SAT 575
81% admission rate

For comparison OU:
33% top 10%
ACT 25.5
SAT 575
89% admission rate

By any measure TU is selective in it's student body.  Contrary to the "TCU is larger because they are better" argument, TU is purposefully selective (not to say TCU isn't selective, they clearly are.  Just saying TU could enroll many, many more students if they choose).    They can not compete on volume and in order to keep themselves growing in the rankings (it's all a game) they must keep a faculty ration as low as possible (currently 11:1).

TCU has 4,000 more students and only 100 more faculty members.  

As an interesting aside, Tulsa is far more diverse than the stereotype goes:

TU:

White: 64%
In-State: 51%
International: 13%

TCU:

White: 74%
In-State: 77%
International: 5%

I'm not knocking TCU at all.  I have great respect for that institution.  But to suggest Tulsa is more myopic and less selective in admissions in just wrong.  
- - -

Again, Tulsa is not Harvard in academics.  It is not OU in football.  It is not Duke in basketball.  It is not Pepperdine for having a wonderful campus.  It is a small private school in Tulsa.  One that has done very well in attracting a superb and diverse student body, a winning tradition in athletics, and had many positive influences in the community.

Room for improvement?  Certainly.  Let me know how you think the University can be better for the community and how the University can be better accepted BY the community.  I'd much rather it be the University OF Tulsa than THE University.  I want people to support TU in every way and understand TU has to support the community for that to happen.

So fill me in on how I can help make that happen, instead of telling me my school is inferior in all aspects.

[USRufnex]

Yep.  Defensive is the right word.  

TU arrogance, bringing out SATs and ACTs...... maybe TU would have a greater positive impact on its surroundings if it had more undergraduate students... not suggesting anyone "dumb down" TU, just saying more qualified applicants would go there if they strengthened more of their depts...

TU has a similar impact on its surrounding neighborhoods as OCU does on NW 23rd St.... I like the Mesta Park area in OKC... I like the Florence Park area around TU...

I don't see people from my alma mater or many others who badmouth the city of their school the way TU people do... yet many of TU's biggest donors never actually went to school there... where's the love?

...just an observation.

[Renaissance]

Wow, you sound like an Ohio State fan attacking Michigan.  Why such animosity?

[cannon_fodder]

How was my response arrogant?

quote:USRUFNEX said
As far as TU's admission requirements?!?... pancakes?

To which I listed and compared admission requirements.  To me that seems like the exact response mandated by the statement.  By your logic the only way I could avoid being labeled arrogant is to agree with false statements about lax admission standards at TU.

Also, TU wants to be a to 50 institution.  It's goal is not to admit more applicants, the goal is to admit better students.  They have never wanted to get a larger student body.  Thus, all statements inferring they are inferior because they can not get enough qualified applicants is simply not applicable.

But I agree it would seem more like a college area if they have the 5,000+ undergrads TCU or OCU has.  Discussion about the impact on the area is debatable (grad students have families, party less, etc.).  But they don't and they probably won't.  If I had the money I would endow an "alternative energy" department to compliment their world renowned petroleum engineering program.  I'd also like to see the liberal arts improved - and hopefully the new facility will see us head in that direction.

Finally, I'm not sure if you are trying to put the school down by pointing out that many prominent people give to the University without having graduated from there.  To me, that's a positive thing.    I'm proud that many people see TU has a worthwhile place to donate their money.  Most of their gifts are challenge gifts that are met by Alumni.

Edward Gaylord didn't graduate from OU (Stanford man), but they sure don't turn away his money.  For that matter Leland Stanford didn't graduate from Stanford... []

I am more than happy to hear about ways TU and the city of Tulsa can improve.  But I do not appreciate people making false statements or ignoring the facts.  Retorting the false statements is neither arrogant (as here) nor drinking cool aid (FB or Inteller on Tulsa).  

I don't know ho much more clear I can be.

[edit]PS. Ruf.  TU is good in soccer and games are free to attend.  Doesn't that buy any love at all?[/edit]

[RecycleMichael]

Tulsa University is better than Texas Christian University because they are in Texas.

I am from Oklahoma, Texas is beneath me.

[dbacks fan]

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

Tulsa University is better than Texas Christian University because they are in Texas.

I am from Oklahoma, Texas is beneath me.

[}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)]

[deinstein]

I meant 11th & Delaware when using the Barnes and Nobles example. I think you knew that was a typo though.

[deinstein]

NOTE: BYU is the non-BCS favorite this year, not TU. TU is mentioned because their schedule is so easy.