Sem Group meltdown

[inteller]

Kivisto needs to go to jail.  If any bloke off the street operated with such negligence they would be in the slammer.  Go find this guy and revoke his passport until we figure out just how much damage this donkey has done.

[OUGrad05]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

Kivisto needs to go to jail.  If any bloke off the street operated with such negligence they would be in the slammer.  Go find this guy and revoke his passport until we figure out just how much damage this donkey has done.

Very true.

[Double A]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Urby fill in the details? The same Urby who just named TeeKay as their Absolute Best Business Leader of 2008? I doubt they'll do much or Tulsa People either. Their readers have very little to do with those awards. They depend on advertising dollars spent and social climbing potential for the publishers which means his award was for being a friend or potential friend of the publishers.

There is no investigative press in Tulsa. Too expensive and every story creates a new enemy from the "oligarchy". This story will unfurl on blogs, this forum and perhaps from outside publications.

There used to be when G.W. Shulz was around.

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

Kivisto needs to go to jail.  If any bloke off the street operated with such negligence they would be in the slammer.  Go find this guy and revoke his passport until we figure out just how much damage this donkey has done.

Again, what do you know that no one else does?

Operating a company negligently, even with reckless disregard is not criminal.  In fact, if he wanted to take all his assets in SemGroup and have them burned... he is free to do so.  In his position as CEO he was free to essentially gamble the assets as he saw fit.

He did, he lost, then he got fired.  Now he will be sued repeatedly.  If there is fraud involved he will be prosecuted.  But if he just ran a business poorly he will face civil suits and nothing more.

Either let me know what crime was committed or stop with the accusations and demands for him to be "locked up."  I'm not sure you realize that running a company poorly is not a crime.  If you know this, let me know what "crime" was committed that you know of that has eluded the rest of the world.

[Conan71]

^ +1

In order to be close enough to "know" there was criminal wrong-doing, you'd likely be a co-conspirator.

Inteller, do you really want your neighbors assuming you are committing all sorts of heinous crimes and then have them blab on a public forum about it?

[bokworker]

Some more news... that might add some color.

http://www.forbes.com/2008/07/28/semgroup-oil-kivisto-biz-energy-cz_ch_0728semgroup.html?partner=email

[cannon_fodder]

Good find BOK:

I guess SemGroup's trading branch began betting against oil at $100 a barrel.  Ouch.

And a nugget for Inteller:

quote:It's a violation of securities laws for Kivisto to hide huge undisclosed trading losses while soliciting additional financing for the company. If that's what he did, "He would be as guilty as any of the Enron guys," says Dallas corporate bankruptcy attorney Richard Levy.

Also, it looks more damning for SemGroup per the driving up oil prices game:

quote:How big must Semgroup's positions have been to rack up $2.5 billion in losses? In the simplest (and purely hypothetical) terms, to lose that much since January, Semgroup would need to have shorted 50 million barrels of crude oil at $100, then lost roughly $50 on each barrel. This is enormous, says Andrew Lipow, a Houston oil trading consultant, noting that such a position would be equal to one-sixth of the entire U.S. crude inventory of 300 million barrels.

Basically, this article says they started on common hedges.  They lost.  They stubbornly tried to make that money back with bigger, and bigger bets until they went belly up.

Sounds like a hot-head at a blackjack table.  

Though, it should be noted, this is another speculative article.  Little real information, but it is Forbes, so I doubt it's just far fetched.

[Conan71]

"You sound like a couple of bookies to me"

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Good find BOK:

I guess SemGroup's trading branch began betting against oil at $100 a barrel.  Ouch.

And a nugget for Inteller:

quote:It's a violation of securities laws for Kivisto to hide huge undisclosed trading losses while soliciting additional financing for the company. If that's what he did, "He would be as guilty as any of the Enron guys," says Dallas corporate bankruptcy attorney Richard Levy.

Also, it looks more damning for SemGroup per the driving up oil prices game:

quote:How big must Semgroup's positions have been to rack up $2.5 billion in losses? In the simplest (and purely hypothetical) terms, to lose that much since January, Semgroup would need to have shorted 50 million barrels of crude oil at $100, then lost roughly $50 on each barrel. This is enormous, says Andrew Lipow, a Houston oil trading consultant, noting that such a position would be equal to one-sixth of the entire U.S. crude inventory of 300 million barrels.

Basically, this article says they started on common hedges.  They lost.  They stubbornly tried to make that money back with bigger, and bigger bets until they went belly up.

Sounds like a hot-head at a blackjack table.  

Though, it should be noted, this is another speculative article.  Little real information, but it is Forbes, so I doubt it's just far fetched.

WE HAVE A BINGO!

[Renaissance]

NOW the barrel starts dropping.  

http://www.reuters.com/article/hotStocksNews/idUST14048520080729

They almost made it, if the cash would have lasted.  Just pushed the hedge a little too soon.

[Breadburner]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

NOW the barrel starts dropping.  

http://www.reuters.com/article/hotStocksNews/idUST14048520080729

They almost made it, if the cash would have lasted.  Just pushed the hedge a little too soon.

If Grandma would have had a dick she would have been Grandpa......

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by Breadburner

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

NOW the barrel starts dropping.  

http://www.reuters.com/article/hotStocksNews/idUST14048520080729

They almost made it, if the cash would have lasted.  Just pushed the hedge a little too soon.

If Grandma would have had a dick she would have been Grandpa......

Yeah yeah--it's all history now.  But the price of oil is inflated right now, and conforms to every aspect of a commodity bubble.  Semgroup's analysts recognized this, but they bet too big too soon.

[FOTD]

Ch. 6 report with Mike Terry confirms what the devil feared.....worst disaster in State Economy since Penn Square Bank.

Now, that's bad bad bad to hear.

[bokworker]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

quote:Originally posted by Breadburner

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

NOW the barrel starts dropping.  

http://www.reuters.com/article/hotStocksNews/idUST14048520080729

They almost made it, if the cash would have lasted.  Just pushed the hedge a little too soon.

If Grandma would have had a dick she would have been Grandpa......

Yeah yeah--it's all history now.  But the price of oil is inflated right now, and conforms to every aspect of a commodity bubble.  Semgroup's analysts recognized this, but they bet too big too soon.

As a wise investor once told me... "the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent"...

[inteller]

quote:Originally posted by bokworker

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

quote:Originally posted by Breadburner

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

NOW the barrel starts dropping.  

http://www.reuters.com/article/hotStocksNews/idUST14048520080729

They almost made it, if the cash would have lasted.  Just pushed the hedge a little too soon.

If Grandma would have had a dick she would have been Grandpa......

Yeah yeah--it's all history now.  But the price of oil is inflated right now, and conforms to every aspect of a commodity bubble.  Semgroup's analysts recognized this, but they bet too big too soon.

As a wise investor once told me... "the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent"...

which means that companies can ruin other companies by keeping the prices inflated beyond when they were "supposed" to go down....and thus the bet is lost and the company folds.