Sem Group meltdown

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Kenosha

I think they just shorted oil...my understanding is that BOK is now in control of that company, for better or worse.

They and MidFirst gave them a ton of credits.  GK and Company, I think, shut them down.

Wonder how many SemGroup Tulsa jobs will be affected?

P.S. American Airlines announced today that they are laying off 1,500 maintenance personnel?  

How badly will Tulsa's AA facility be affected?

TBA.....

Hope all these folks haven't already bought their Eagles tickets......

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by Kenosha

I think they just shorted oil...my understanding is that BOK is now in control of that company, for better or worse.

They and MidFirst gave them a ton of credits.  GK and Company, I think, shut them down.

I have not heard anything to the effect.  They are listed as a major credit:

quote:Banc of America Securities LLC is bookrunner. Lead lenders include Bank of America, BNP Paribas, Bank of Montreal, Bank of Oklahoma and The Bank of Nova Scotia.

Not sure why BOk would take over if anyone is.  But again, i have no seen nor heard anything that would suggest they have been placed in receivership or control otherwise taken away from management.  The only suggestion I have seen of that is in the Tulsa World comments section.

BOk announced a poor QT and lost 4% today.  But they didn't mention SemGroup or given an earnings advisory on it at the conference.    Clearly they have exposure, but with the list of creditors I don't think BOk is a lead player in their finance.

Sources please.  Label rumors as such and give sources when you have them.  This is bad enough, we don't need to extrapolate unless it's at least somewhat reliable (or caveat with RUMOR). Not saying you are wrong, just that I haven't seen nor heard it.

But here is what we KNOW on the matter:

quote:BOk engages in routine energy  hedging  transactions  with SemGroup,  L.P.,
Mustang Fuel Corporation,  Mustang Gas Products,  LLC and Eagle Gas Marketing on
terms offered to customers of BOk generally.  In 2006,  Mustang Fuel Corporation
hedged 668 thousand  MMbtu of natural gas and SemGroup  L.P.  hedged 6.8 million
barrels of oil. The hedges are backed by counter party contracts.  Mr. Joullian,
a director of BOK  Financial,  is the  President  of Mustang  Fuel  Corporation,
Mustang Gas Products,  LLC and Eagle Gas Marketing.  Mr. Kivitso,  a director of
BOK Financial, is President of SemGroup L.P.

http://sec.edgar-online.com/2007/03/21/0000875357-07-000006/Section13.asp

quote:In 2000, BOK underwrote a $70 million loan to start SemGroup.

http://www.semgrouplp.com/~/media/779E805FFC66480F8BED4F61DF4969AF.ashx

That's all I can find as proof of hard loans. BOKF is a public company, if they foresee a massive loss they are likely to issue a warning. Lest they face a shareholder suit and probably SEC investigation (like SeMGroup)  :
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/roy-jacobs--associates-announces/story.aspx?guid=%7BA783526B-942E-45E1-9091-01E5C558D118%7D&dist=hppr

[edit] There's the bear!  I knew he wouldn't miss the chance to gloat over anything that hurts the community or those in it.  SemGroup has 400 jobs in Tulsa and AA has 7,000.  AA stands to lost as much as 10% of those if it is pro rata. [/edit]

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:Originally posted by Kenosha

I think they just shorted oil...my understanding is that BOK is now in control of that company, for better or worse.

They and MidFirst gave them a ton of credits.  GK and Company, I think, shut them down.

I have not heard anything to the effect.  They are listed as a major credit:

quote:Banc of America Securities LLC is bookrunner. Lead lenders include Bank of America, BNP Paribas, Bank of Montreal, Bank of Oklahoma and The Bank of Nova Scotia.

Not sure why BOk would take over if anyone is.  But again, i have no seen nor heard anything that would suggest they have been placed in receivership or control otherwise taken away from management.  The only suggestion I have seen of that is in the Tulsa World comments section.

BOk announced a poor QT and lost 4% today.  But they didn't mention SemGroup or given an earnings advisory on it at the conference.    Clearly they have exposure, but with the list of creditors I don't think BOk is a lead player in their finance.

Sources please.  Label rumors as such and give sources when you have them.  This is bad enough, we don't need to extrapolate unless it's at least somewhat reliable (or caveat with RUMOR). Not saying you are wrong, just that I haven't seen nor heard it.

But here is what we KNOW on the matter:

quote:BOk engages in routine energy  hedging  transactions  with SemGroup,  L.P.,
Mustang Fuel Corporation,  Mustang Gas Products,  LLC and Eagle Gas Marketing on
terms offered to customers of BOk generally.  In 2006,  Mustang Fuel Corporation
hedged 668 thousand  MMbtu of natural gas and SemGroup  L.P.  hedged 6.8 million
barrels of oil. The hedges are backed by counter party contracts.  Mr. Joullian,
a director of BOK  Financial,  is the  President  of Mustang  Fuel  Corporation,
Mustang Gas Products,  LLC and Eagle Gas Marketing.  Mr. Kivitso,  a director of
BOK Financial, is President of SemGroup L.P.

http://sec.edgar-online.com/2007/03/21/0000875357-07-000006/Section13.asp

quote:In 2000, BOK underwrote a $70 million loan to start SemGroup.

http://www.semgrouplp.com/~/media/779E805FFC66480F8BED4F61DF4969AF.ashx

That's all I can find as proof of hard loans. BOKF is a public company, if they foresee a massive loss they are likely to issue a warning. Lest they face a shareholder suit and probably SEC investigation (like SeMGroup)  :
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/roy-jacobs--associates-announces/story.aspx?guid=%7BA783526B-942E-45E1-9091-01E5C558D118%7D&dist=hppr

[edit] There's the bear!  I knew he wouldn't miss the chance to gloat over anything that hurts the community or those in it.  SemGroup has 400 jobs in Tulsa and AA has 7,000.  AA stands to lost as much as 10% of those if it is pro rata. [/edit]

The "rumor" and I stress rumor (from people at American but still) is that Tulsa is pretty much ok on the layoffs but that Kansas City is toast.

BUT, with union rules if someone in KC gets laid off with more time with the company than you, they can have your job if they want it. There are apparently a lot of Tulsa people in KC now for just that reason sharing apartments and such with the family still in Tulsa. It's going to hurt a lot of people no matter what.

Bear, your glee is disgusting.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:Originally posted by Kenosha

I think they just shorted oil...my understanding is that BOK is now in control of that company, for better or worse.

They and MidFirst gave them a ton of credits.  GK and Company, I think, shut them down.

I have not heard anything to the effect.  They are listed as a major credit:

quote:Banc of America Securities LLC is bookrunner. Lead lenders include Bank of America, BNP Paribas, Bank of Montreal, Bank of Oklahoma and The Bank of Nova Scotia.

Not sure why BOk would take over if anyone is.  But again, i have no seen nor heard anything that would suggest they have been placed in receivership or control otherwise taken away from management.  The only suggestion I have seen of that is in the Tulsa World comments section.

BOk announced a poor QT and lost 4% today.  But they didn't mention SemGroup or given an earnings advisory on it at the conference.    Clearly they have exposure, but with the list of creditors I don't think BOk is a lead player in their finance.

Sources please.  Label rumors as such and give sources when you have them.  This is bad enough, we don't need to extrapolate unless it's at least somewhat reliable (or caveat with RUMOR). Not saying you are wrong, just that I haven't seen nor heard it.

But here is what we KNOW on the matter:

quote:BOk engages in routine energy  hedging  transactions  with SemGroup,  L.P.,
Mustang Fuel Corporation,  Mustang Gas Products,  LLC and Eagle Gas Marketing on
terms offered to customers of BOk generally.  In 2006,  Mustang Fuel Corporation
hedged 668 thousand  MMbtu of natural gas and SemGroup  L.P.  hedged 6.8 million
barrels of oil. The hedges are backed by counter party contracts.  Mr. Joullian,
a director of BOK  Financial,  is the  President  of Mustang  Fuel  Corporation,
Mustang Gas Products,  LLC and Eagle Gas Marketing.  Mr. Kivitso,  a director of
BOK Financial, is President of SemGroup L.P.

http://sec.edgar-online.com/2007/03/21/0000875357-07-000006/Section13.asp

quote:In 2000, BOK underwrote a $70 million loan to start SemGroup.

http://www.semgrouplp.com/~/media/779E805FFC66480F8BED4F61DF4969AF.ashx

That's all I can find as proof of hard loans. BOKF is a public company, if they foresee a massive loss they are likely to issue a warning. Lest they face a shareholder suit and probably SEC investigation (like SeMGroup)  :
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/roy-jacobs--associates-announces/story.aspx?guid=%7BA783526B-942E-45E1-9091-01E5C558D118%7D&dist=hppr

[edit] There's the bear!  I knew he wouldn't miss the chance to gloat over anything that hurts the community or those in it.  SemGroup has 400 jobs in Tulsa and AA has 7,000.  AA stands to lost as much as 10% of those if it is pro rata. [/edit]

I resent that.

No one's gloating.  Absolutely NOT.

I feel sincerely sorry for the Sem Group employees, as well as the 1,500+ AA mechanics who will be laid off.

I hope they promptly find comparable employment.

If we had any leadership at City Hall and the MetroTulsaChamberPots, they would be CUTTING back on huge, ongoing capital and operating expenses coming out of the city budget, what with the economy probably heading for a sharp, probably, prolonged recession?

However, our High Maintenance Mayor is apparently only concerned with what helps build her political future.

City Hall move.

$7.1 million handed to BOK for their deal gone bad.  

NOT ours.

BID district for the Manhattan Construction Co.  er, rather the Tulsa Drillers.

$1.8 billion proposed taxes for roadbuilding to Sherwood, Beeco, and their connected contractor cronies, under the supervision of Chas. Hardt and Paul Zachary who personally brought us our local street maintenance DISASTER.

We need R-E-L-I-E-F.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:Originally posted by Kenosha

I think they just shorted oil...my understanding is that BOK is now in control of that company, for better or worse.

They and MidFirst gave them a ton of credits.  GK and Company, I think, shut them down.

I have not heard anything to the effect.  They are listed as a major credit:

quote:Banc of America Securities LLC is bookrunner. Lead lenders include Bank of America, BNP Paribas, Bank of Montreal, Bank of Oklahoma and The Bank of Nova Scotia.

Not sure why BOk would take over if anyone is.  But again, i have no seen nor heard anything that would suggest they have been placed in receivership or control otherwise taken away from management.  The only suggestion I have seen of that is in the Tulsa World comments section.

BOk announced a poor QT and lost 4% today.  But they didn't mention SemGroup or given an earnings advisory on it at the conference.    Clearly they have exposure, but with the list of creditors I don't think BOk is a lead player in their finance.

Sources please.  Label rumors as such and give sources when you have them.  This is bad enough, we don't need to extrapolate unless it's at least somewhat reliable (or caveat with RUMOR). Not saying you are wrong, just that I haven't seen nor heard it.

But here is what we KNOW on the matter:

quote:BOk engages in routine energy  hedging  transactions  with SemGroup,  L.P.,
Mustang Fuel Corporation,  Mustang Gas Products,  LLC and Eagle Gas Marketing on
terms offered to customers of BOk generally.  In 2006,  Mustang Fuel Corporation
hedged 668 thousand  MMbtu of natural gas and SemGroup  L.P.  hedged 6.8 million
barrels of oil. The hedges are backed by counter party contracts.  Mr. Joullian,
a director of BOK  Financial,  is the  President  of Mustang  Fuel  Corporation,
Mustang Gas Products,  LLC and Eagle Gas Marketing.  Mr. Kivitso,  a director of
BOK Financial, is President of SemGroup L.P.

http://sec.edgar-online.com/2007/03/21/0000875357-07-000006/Section13.asp

quote:In 2000, BOK underwrote a $70 million loan to start SemGroup.

http://www.semgrouplp.com/~/media/779E805FFC66480F8BED4F61DF4969AF.ashx

That's all I can find as proof of hard loans. BOKF is a public company, if they foresee a massive loss they are likely to issue a warning. Lest they face a shareholder suit and probably SEC investigation (like SeMGroup)  :
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/roy-jacobs--associates-announces/story.aspx?guid=%7BA783526B-942E-45E1-9091-01E5C558D118%7D&dist=hppr

[edit] There's the bear!  I knew he wouldn't miss the chance to gloat over anything that hurts the community or those in it.  SemGroup has 400 jobs in Tulsa and AA has 7,000.  AA stands to lost as much as 10% of those if it is pro rata. [/edit]

Maybe Sem Group couldn't cover their oil hedge.......

That would explain a 50% drop in their stock price in ONE DAY......yesterday.

Ouch!

Down ANOTHER 25% today.

Ouch, Ouch!

A sign from FB:  

WATCH to see if Mr. Joullian is dropped from the BOK Financial Board of Directors faster than (George?) Kaiser Wilhelm II dropped Bismarck.

Former BOK Director and SemGroup Chairman Tom Kivisto left the BOK Board sometime since EOY 2007.

Auf Wiedersehn, Bubi!

[xx(]

[Conan71]

Swake, rumor I got from an AA guy yesterday (mechanic) was Alliance (AFW) might get shuttered and they would move a lot of that service work to Tulsa.  Doesn't make sense with a large hub and HQ in Dallas, but I guess they know which units are operating efficiently and which aren't.

The old TWA M&E at MKC is a plausible rumor as it's seemed like a step-child ever since the buy-out.

At any rate, you've heard KC, I've heard Alliance, let's extrapolate that for the time being as good news for Tulsa.  I've heard the same seniority issue before as well.  Not sure that many employees would want to move here from DFW or KC since we didn't pass the river tax [] (couldn't resist, it's Friday)

The same fellow I was talking to said the fuel problem stems from earlier reservations, I call B.S. on that one.  Checking other itineraries for a 2500 mile round trip a week before I left two weeks ago, prices were cheaper than the week I booked in May.

All the airlines are so consumed with market share and "commodity pricing" their fares.  How's about stepping up the service and earning loyalty the old fashioned way, then you can afford to charge a profitable fare.

I hate it for individuals who are affected by job cuts, but it's kind of hard to conjure up much pity for the execs at companies like this who obviously haven't planned far enough ahead and who engage in a game of financial "chicken" with the other airlines, just to maintain market share.

[Kenosha]

I have a source in the banking industry.  That is all I know.

Anyway, I didn't get detail...more big picture stuff.

I wonder what their hedge price was?  What I heard was that diving crude prices could rescue the situation.....were down 15 -16 bucks over the last few days?  Hope it keeps dropping.

[Kenosha]

quote:Originally posted by Kenosha

I have a source in the banking industry.  That is all I know.

Anyway, I didn't get detail...more big picture stuff.

I wonder what their hedge price was?  What I heard was that diving crude prices could rescue the situation.....We're down 15 -16 bucks over the last few days?  Hope it keeps dropping.

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by Kenosha

I have a source in the banking industry.  That is all I know.

Anyway, I didn't get detail...more big picture stuff.

I wonder what their hedge price was?  What I heard was that diving crude prices could rescue the situation.....were down 15 -16 bucks over the last few days?  Hope it keeps dropping.

Just wondering what assets the SemGroup has that are tangible. There may be little here to cherry pick and some banks are not going to take it in the chops. More like kicked in the balls.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

quote:Originally posted by Kenosha

I have a source in the banking industry.  That is all I know.

Anyway, I didn't get detail...more big picture stuff.

I wonder what their hedge price was?  What I heard was that diving crude prices could rescue the situation.....were down 15 -16 bucks over the last few days?  Hope it keeps dropping.

Just wondering what assets the SemGroup has that are tangible. There may be little here to cherry pick and some banks are not going to take it in the chops. More like kicked in the balls.

There are some oil/fuel storage tanks between Tulsa and Glenpool that say Sem Group.

Maybe they are empty....?

[FOTD]

Yes. My guess would be the oil has been taken.

The tip seems to have started when TK resigned from BOKF.

These may be criminal matters now.

TK rhymes with Ken Lay......??

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

Yes. My guess would be the oil has been taken.

The tip seems to have started when TK resigned from BOKF.

These may be criminal matters now.

TK rhymes with Ken Lay......??

If you Google on Tom Kivisto, you get many, many charitable hits associated with SemGroup and him personally.

Brother, he was spreading the money around like there was no tomorrow.

[moonovrmia]

I venture to say, when this all shakes out, SemGroups' fallout will make Enron, Ken Lay and Bernie Ebers look like school children.  And it will start at the top!

[Breadburner]

I made a comment to friend a few months back that I thought that company was a house of cards...Needless to say they were shocked that I would say something like that....Things that start fast usually end fast...I think the ENRON comparisons are spot on.....

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by moonovrmia

I venture to say, when this all shakes out, SemGroups' fallout will make Enron, Ken Lay and Bernie Ebers look like school children.  And it will start at the top!

I don't think it would be of that magnitude. TK did not have direct ties to the Bush family or to Wendy Gramm. Nor will they find any Shillings et al. More likely, bad judgement and market conditions rather than the outright fraud of Lay and company.

But the story will no doubt be Enronesque.