McCain is Not a Maverick, He's a...

[iplaw]

quote:Because of where the "facts" come from and who decides the criteria for success and who decides when they've been met.

All three of those came from the Bush administration. You trust them. I don't.

Fine then.  What benchmarks would define success in Iraq for you?  Incredibly low violence, Sadr has given up, oil revenues distribution has been established, they had free elections, they have a majority of provinces under Iraqi control, and a whole host of civil improvements.

Is it their lack of a meaningful "carbon policy" like Pelosi said on meet the press?

quote:
The violence is subsiding because the insurgents no longer need to fight. They know we're leaving and they're waiting. Like MC predicted, they would rather fight the local government than us. Meanwhile, the real fight is in Afghanistan, where there are real terrorists, not insurgents. Obama and others pointed this out long ago. Now GB decides we need to move troops to Afghanistan. Smart move, but as usual, too little and maybe too late.

How exactly did Obama "prove" anything?  Afghanistan is under the control of NATO.  So you're calling for MORE unilateral action?  You guys are schizto.

[waterboy]

IP, I don't think we can achieve success in Iraq so I guess its a moot point. Republicans have a fantasy that we have to win like some sort of pride thing. That's dumb. There was never any success to be had. A war like this has "failure" stamped all over it unless you're one of the contractors or suppliers for it.

But by the standards that GB's party sets for success, mission accomplished would not have been leaving because a spindly government demanded we leave. It wouldn't be because the violence is less than two years ago or small enough to be engulfed by an election campaign.

The ouster of the madman of the Middle East who was tolerable to surrounding countries who knew quite well how to handle him was arguably the only success because that was specifically defined as such beforehand.

The real issue is not how we cut and run and how we label it. The issue is that we had no business going there and we need to get out.

[RecycleMichael]

quote:Originally posted by Hoss
You're about the same level as FB for me.

Now that is an insult.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

IP, I don't think we can achieve success in Iraq so I guess its a moot point. Republicans have a fantasy that we have to win like some sort of pride thing. That's dumb. There was never any success to be had. A war like this has "failure" stamped all over it unless you're one of the contractors or suppliers for it.

Well, I can't say any more for certain than you can, but just a guess: families who were directly subject to the atrocities of Saddam Hussein and the millions who lived in fear of him might argue this point with you.

Just a guess...

[Breadburner]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by Breadburner

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Doncha' just love it Cubs? I mean, how "cut and run" turned into "winning the war". When GB follows Obama's advice its "sound foreign policy". When GB notes that Iraqi officials want us to leave, which Obama had pointed out earlier, its "their ready to stand on their own".

All GB and MC can point to as success is the surge which only is a success if the criteria for success is modified to mean "less violence" and all other reasons for that decline in violence are ignored. No provable causation, but just say it enough and it becomes truthy.

Reality, what a concept man.

Reality check.

15 of the 18 "surge" benchmarks set have been accomplished. The violence is not just "less" it is at its lowest level since the spring of '04. They just handed the ANBAR province back to the Iraqi forces, the worst of the worst as far as violence. This is after they have already handed back numerous other provinces.

Why do you purposefully ignore the facts?

Because of where the "facts" come from and who decides the criteria for success and who decides when they've been met.

All three of those came from the Bush administration. You trust them. I don't.

The violence is subsiding because the insurgents no longer need to fight. They know we're leaving and they're waiting. Like MC predicted, they would rather fight the local government than us. Meanwhile, the real fight is in Afghanistan, where there are real terrorists, not insurgents. Obama and others pointed this out long ago. Now GB decides we need to move troops to Afghanistan. Smart move, but as usual, too little and maybe too late.

You have kool-aid on the brain....

More intelligent, specific, talking points from the one liner king of cake-eaters country. Why would you even care what I have on my brain any more than what French President Sarcozy has on his? Afterall, I'm Un-American.

I like pie....

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

quote:Originally posted by Cubs

well considering mccain is not reckless at any of those things you stated ... i guess he is a maverick

his foreign policy is the reason we are winning the war
his vice president is an extremely intelligent conservative woman
he speaks the truth even when it goes against what his party supports

The politics of distraction...and distraction from the truth. What does McFlintstone support this week? How does McBush, "Mission Acomplished," define winning the war? What vetting process did McMysoginis go through?

Cubs blew another one tonight....4-3 Cards.
That's truth.

So, none of you Dumbf*ckistanians, IPLAW etc., can answer my questions?

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by Hoss

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

It's called asking for specifics you idiot.  Unlike you, bumper sticker vomit doesn't work with me.  Specific examples usually make for better discussion than talking points.  But for someone who employs exactly ZERO logic in discussions I can see how you got confused.

No, but then you'll cite them as being 'libtard blogs' or the like, regardless of where they come from.

I know how you guys act.  Calling people names and calling my mom 'easy' get respect from no one.

Not that you ever had it from me, though.  You're about the same level as FB for me.

I don't really give a damn what you think about me.  You've proven consistently that you can't string together enough words to create a coherent thought.  

For contrast, look to the discussions I have with waterboy.  We disagree often, but at least he has the faculties to generate a substantive discussion instead of barfing out retarded statements like "koolaid drinker" and the like.

[we vs us]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

IP, I don't think we can achieve success in Iraq so I guess its a moot point. Republicans have a fantasy that we have to win like some sort of pride thing. That's dumb. There was never any success to be had. A war like this has "failure" stamped all over it unless you're one of the contractors or suppliers for it.

Well, I can't say any more for certain than you can, but just a guess: families who were directly subject to the atrocities of Saddam Hussein and the millions who lived in fear of him might argue this point with you.

Just a guess...

I would be really interested to know the level of goodwill that the last five years of war has generated amongst the Iraqis.

Nothing says "the American Way" more than imposing liberty on a country that wasn't particularly asking for it.

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:Originally posted by Hoss

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

It's called asking for specifics you idiot.  Unlike you, bumper sticker vomit doesn't work with me.  Specific examples usually make for better discussion than talking points.  But for someone who employs exactly ZERO logic in discussions I can see how you got confused.

No, but then you'll cite them as being 'libtard blogs' or the like, regardless of where they come from.

I know how you guys act.  Calling people names and calling my mom 'easy' get respect from no one.

Not that you ever had it from me, though.  You're about the same level as FB for me.

I don't really give a damn what you think about me.  You've proven consistently that you can't string together enough words to create a coherent thought.  

For contrast, look to the discussions I have with waterboy.  We disagree often, but at least he has the faculties to generate a substantive discussion instead of barfing out retarded statements like "koolaid drinker" and the like.

cackle, cackle....

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by we vs us

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

IP, I don't think we can achieve success in Iraq so I guess its a moot point. Republicans have a fantasy that we have to win like some sort of pride thing. That's dumb. There was never any success to be had. A war like this has "failure" stamped all over it unless you're one of the contractors or suppliers for it.

Well, I can't say any more for certain than you can, but just a guess: families who were directly subject to the atrocities of Saddam Hussein and the millions who lived in fear of him might argue this point with you.

Just a guess...

I would be really interested to know the level of goodwill that the last five years of war has generated amongst the Iraqis.

Nothing says "the American Way" more than imposing liberty on a country that wasn't particularly asking for it.

Yeah, I bet the Iraqi's are just pissed that his torture chambers aren't in action any more.

Thanks for the laughs![}:)]

[Hoss]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:Originally posted by Hoss

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

It's called asking for specifics you idiot.  Unlike you, bumper sticker vomit doesn't work with me.  Specific examples usually make for better discussion than talking points.  But for someone who employs exactly ZERO logic in discussions I can see how you got confused.

No, but then you'll cite them as being 'libtard blogs' or the like, regardless of where they come from.

I know how you guys act.  Calling people names and calling my mom 'easy' get respect from no one.

Not that you ever had it from me, though.  You're about the same level as FB for me.

I don't really give a damn what you think about me.  You've proven consistently that you can't string together enough words to create a coherent thought.  

For contrast, look to the discussions I have with waterboy.  We disagree often, but at least he has the faculties to generate a substantive discussion instead of barfing out retarded statements like "koolaid drinker" and the like.

Yep, how intelligent you look when you throw out insults about my mother.

Make sure you cross the street at the crosswalk, child.

[:O]

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by Hoss

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:Originally posted by Hoss

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

It's called asking for specifics you idiot.  Unlike you, bumper sticker vomit doesn't work with me.  Specific examples usually make for better discussion than talking points.  But for someone who employs exactly ZERO logic in discussions I can see how you got confused.

No, but then you'll cite them as being 'libtard blogs' or the like, regardless of where they come from.

I know how you guys act.  Calling people names and calling my mom 'easy' get respect from no one.

Not that you ever had it from me, though.  You're about the same level as FB for me.

I don't really give a damn what you think about me.  You've proven consistently that you can't string together enough words to create a coherent thought.  

For contrast, look to the discussions I have with waterboy.  We disagree often, but at least he has the faculties to generate a substantive discussion instead of barfing out retarded statements like "koolaid drinker" and the like.

Yep, how intelligent you look when you throw out insults about my mother.

Make sure you cross the street at the crosswalk, child.

[:O]

Tell her to stop digging through my garbage and I'll agree to knock it off.

[:O]

[Hoss]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:Originally posted by Hoss

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:Originally posted by Hoss

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

It's called asking for specifics you idiot.  Unlike you, bumper sticker vomit doesn't work with me.  Specific examples usually make for better discussion than talking points.  But for someone who employs exactly ZERO logic in discussions I can see how you got confused.

No, but then you'll cite them as being 'libtard blogs' or the like, regardless of where they come from.

I know how you guys act.  Calling people names and calling my mom 'easy' get respect from no one.

Not that you ever had it from me, though.  You're about the same level as FB for me.

I don't really give a damn what you think about me.  You've proven consistently that you can't string together enough words to create a coherent thought.  

For contrast, look to the discussions I have with waterboy.  We disagree often, but at least he has the faculties to generate a substantive discussion instead of barfing out retarded statements like "koolaid drinker" and the like.

Yep, how intelligent you look when you throw out insults about my mother.

Make sure you cross the street at the crosswalk, child.

[:O]

Tell her to stop digging through my garbage and I'll agree to knock it off.

[:O]

[}:)]

Thanks for making my point so easily.

[iplaw]

Any time...at least that what she said.

[:O]

[Hoss]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

Any time...at least that what she said.

[:O]