The Bailout

[nathanm]

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle


If so, I'll retract. But it and yourself are the first to try and put it into perspective. btw, it wasn't an email, it was a news source, so they apparently had it wrong, assuming, of course, your numbers are accurate.

Not to knock you in particular, but we would all do well to sanity check figures we are fed by news sources. If 700 billion were 50% of the real property in the US, we'd only have 7 million homes worth $200,000 and zero commercial property and other real estate.

[Wrinkle]

quote:Originally posted by nathanm

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle


If so, I'll retract. But it and yourself are the first to try and put it into perspective. btw, it wasn't an email, it was a news source, so they apparently had it wrong, assuming, of course, your numbers are accurate.

Not to knock you in particular, but we would all do well to sanity check figures we are fed by news sources. If 700 billion were 50% of the real property in the US, we'd only have 7 million homes worth $200,000 and zero commercial property and other real estate.

I'd agree. Usually give it more than a thought, but happened to be in the forum posting when I heard it, didn't get time to settle.

Then again, it's a question scale. Most Americans aren't used to flipping billions around like politicians.

I heard once, sometime ago, when Bill Gates interviewed (yeah, personally, each one back then) a prospective new employee, he'd ask a series of pointed questions to help him evaluate the candidate. One was said to be, "How many gas stations are there in the Continental U.S.?".

The candidate was expected to take a deep breath, scratch their chin and in the course of 10 seconds or so, produce a number, or logic which would hit the target within Bill's expectations, something like 10%.

If we were talking houses, it'd go something like this: Tulsa has about 150,000 homes. (some local reference expected to be known). Tulsa is one of the top 50 largest cities in the US. If those 50 made up half of all housing, the average of those 50 cities might be twice the count of Tulsa, so 300,000, since Tulsa is nearer to #50 than the middle. Times 50 would be 15,000,000 homes, double that and one would get about 30,000,000 homes in the US.

I have no idea how many there actually are, just the logic of how one arrived at a number would be important here.

Further, if the average retail price of a home in the US were $200,000, then the value of all those homes would be about $6 Trillion.

That's residential, and doesn't appear to come close to the stated $31 Trillion prior. But, is it possible Commercial real estate does come to four times the value of all houses? Could be.

Scale does funny things to everything, including numbers.

The difference between six ounces and six pounds of fudge wouldn't seem great, unless one were required to eat it all.

[Wrinkle]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

Subtitle B on page 310:

"Paul Wellstone and Pete Domenici Mental Health Parity and Addiction Equity Act of 2008"

pancakes is crap like this doing in an economic bail-out bill?

Sounds like gotcha crap that will come out as "Senator Blowhard voted against mental health and helping those with addictions" if they vote against this package.

Sweet Jeebus, they are off the hinges in DC....

Edit: It gets worse, I finally had to close the file, I got too pissed.  All I can say as I read each new thing thrown in: pancakes? pancakes?

When I looked at the first deal, it was a three part program with only the first dealing with the bailout. The other two were totally unrelated and included many eyebrow-raising proposals, including allowing the IRS to actively spy on people.

[Townsend]

Senate version approved by House

[Gaspar]

quote:Originally posted by Townsend

Senate version approved by House

With over $100 billion in earmarks.

Sec. 101. Extension of alternative minimum tax relief for nonrefundable personal credits.
Sec. 102. Extension of increased alternative minimum tax exemption amount.
Sec. 103. Increase of AMT refundable credit amount for individuals with longterm unused credits for prior year minimum tax liability, etc.
Sec. 201. Deduction for State and local sales taxes.
Sec. 202. Deduction of qualified tuition and related expenses.
Sec. 203. Deduction for certain expenses of elementary and secondary school teachers.
Sec. 204. Additional standard deduction for real property taxes for nonitemizers.
Sec. 205. Tax-free distributions from individual retirement plans for charitable purposes.
Sec. 206. Treatment of certain dividends of regulated investment companies.
Sec. 207. Stock in RIC for purposes of determining estates of nonresidents not citizens.
Sec. 208. Qualified investment entities.
Sec. 301. Extension and modification of research credit.
Sec. 302. New markets tax credit.
Sec. 303. Subpart F exception for active financing income.
Sec. 304. Extension of look-thru rule for related controlled foreign corporations.
Sec. 305. Extension of 15-year straight-line cost recovery for qualified leasehold improvements and qualified restaurant improvements; 15-year straight-line cost recovery for certain improvements to retail space.
Sec. 306. Modification of tax treatment of certain payments to controlling exempt organizations.
Sec. 307. Basis adjustment to stock of S corporations making charitable contributions of property.
Sec. 308. Increase in limit on cover over of rum excise tax to Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands.
Sec. 309. Extension of economic development credit for American Samoa.
Sec. 310. Extension of mine rescue team training credit.
Sec. 311. Extension of election to expense advanced mine safety equipment.
Sec. 312. Deduction allowable with respect to income attributable to domestic production activities in Puerto Rico.
Sec. 313. Qualified zone academy bonds.
Sec. 314. Indian employment credit.
Sec. 315. Accelerated depreciation for business property on Indian reservations.
Sec. 316. Railroad track maintenance.
Sec. 317. Seven-year cost recovery period for motorsports racing track facility.
Sec. 318. Expensing of environmental remediation costs.
Sec. 319. Extension of work opportunity tax credit for Hurricane Katrina employees.
Sec. 320. Extension of increased rehabilitation credit for structures in the Gulf Opportunity Zone.
Sec. 321. Enhanced deduction for qualified computer contributions.
Sec. 322. Tax incentives for investment in the District of Columbia.
Sec. 323. Enhanced charitable deductions for contributions of food inventory.
Sec. 324. Extension of enhanced charitable deduction for contributions of book inventory.
Sec. 325. Extension and modification of duty suspension on wool products; wool research fund; wool duty refunds.
Sec. 401. Permanent authority for undercover operations.
Sec. 402. Permanent authority for disclosure of information relating to terrorist activities.
Sec. 501. $8,500 income threshold used to calculate refundable portion of child tax credit.
Sec. 502. Provisions related to film and television productions.
Sec. 503. Exemption from excise tax for certain wooden arrows designed for use by children.
Sec. 504. Income averaging for amounts received in connection with the Exxon Valdez litigation.
Sec. 505. Certain farming business machinery and equipment treated as 5-year property.
Sec. 506. Modification of penalty on understatement of taxpayer's liability by tax return preparer.
Sec. 512. Mental health parity.
Sec. 601. Secure rural schools and community self-determination program.
Sec. 602. Transfer to abandoned mine reclamation fund.
Sec. 702. Temporary tax relief for areas damaged by 2008 Midwestern severe storms, tornados, and flooding.
Sec. 703. Reporting requirements relating to disaster relief contributions.
Sec. 704. Temporary tax-exempt bond financing and low-income housing tax relief for areas damaged by Hurricane Ike.
Sec. 706. Losses attributable to federally declared disasters.
Sec. 707. Expensing of Qualified Disaster Expenses.
Sec. 708. Net operating losses attributable to federally declared disasters.
Sec. 709. Waiver of certain mortgage revenue bond requirements following federally declared disasters.
Sec. 710. Special depreciation allowance for qualified disaster property.
Sec. 711. Increased expensing for qualified disaster assistance property.
Sec. 712. Coordination with Heartland disaster relief.
Sec. 801. Nonqualified deferred compensation from certain tax indifferent parties.

WOW!

[Conan71]

So, if I'm reading this correctly, the government is arranging a bunch of tax credits or extending existing ones as a method of economic stimulus?

I'm a bit perplexed and have too much to do than to read through 400 some pages of text at the moment.

That's a lot of new spending with a lot of new tax cuts or exemptions.

[Townsend]

Sec. 317. Seven-year cost recovery period for motorsports racing track facility


thank God?

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Townsend

Sec. 317. Seven-year cost recovery period for motorsports racing track facility


thank God?

I was going to address that one directly, I'm a huge racing fan, but that's a pet pancakes earmark if I ever saw one.

I'm curious who the developer is.  

[swake]

Here's a good one:

Sec. 503. Exemption from excise tax for certain wooden arrows designed for use by children.

[Conan71]

A lot of legislators just voted for their own re-election.

Claims like this are suspect election year fodder:

"The renewable energy part of the package alone, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said, will "create and save half-a-million good-paying jobs in America immediately."

Virtually all of the tax breaks already exist. But many of them expired Jan. 1 for use in the current tax year, and the others will expire three months from now unless Congress renews them."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081003/ap_on_go_co/meltdown_tax_breaks

Everyone can go home to their own district and tell their constituents how they voted for their interests.  How sweet.  

We, the taxpayer, just funded a $700 bln re-election campaign for 535 of the most corrupt people in America.

"Double **** burger with sleaze, coming up!  GHACK!!!"

[Gaspar]

In Section 117 we are going to do a "Carbon Audit" of the tax code.

Huh?

That's easy.  The thousands of pages of the tax code are not carbon neutral.  Delete 99% of them.

I forgot to mention that the above is only a small sample of "Democratic Earmark Bill 1424."

It looks quite a bit different than the administrations 3 page bill, but mark my words, if it is a failure it will be the "Failed Bush Bailout Bill of 2008"  if it is a success it will be the "Democratic Economic Rescue Bill of 2008"

Either way, it proves the usefulness of our current legislature and the GLARING need for earmark reform that many have pushed for years.

The American people were being held over the falls and Congress used it as an opportunity for blackmail.

OUTSTANDING!

OUTFREEKINGSTANDING!

[jne]

quote:Originally posted by Conan71

A lot of legislators just voted for their own re-election.

Claims like this are suspect election year fodder:

"The renewable energy part of the package alone, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said, will "create and save half-a-million good-paying jobs in America immediately."

Virtually all of the tax breaks already exist. But many of them expired Jan. 1 for use in the current tax year, and the others will expire three months from now unless Congress renews them."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081003/ap_on_go_co/meltdown_tax_breaks

Everyone can go home to their own district and tell their constituents how they voted for their interests.  How sweet.  

We, the taxpayer, just funded a $700 bln re-election campaign for 535 of the most corrupt people in America.

"Double **** burger with sleaze, coming up!  GHACK!!!"

"Everyone can go home to their own district and tell their constituents how they voted for their interests.  How sweet.  "

Except for Inhofe eh?Isn't that the reason people think he is valuable to Oklahoma?  Where's the Pork big guy?

[Hoss]

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

In Section 117 we are going to do a "Carbon Audit" of the tax code.

Huh?

That's easy.  The thousands of pages of the tax code are not carbon neutral.  Delete 99% of them.

I forgot to mention that the above is only a small sample of "Democratic Earmark Bill 1424."

It looks quite a bit different than the administrations 3 page bill, but mark my words, if it is a failure it will be the "Failed Bush Bailout Bill of 2008"  if it is a success it will be the "Democratic Economic Rescue Bill of 2008"

Either way, it proves the usefulness of our current legislature and the GLARING need for earmark reform that many have pushed for years.

The American people were being held over the falls and Congress used it as an opportunity for blackmail.

OUTSTANDING!

OUTFREEKINGSTANDING!

What?  Most of the earmarks, or 'sweeteners' were to get enough Republicans on board to guarantee the bill would pass in the House.

[YoungTulsan]

Sullivan lost my vote today

[Gaspar]

quote:Originally posted by Hoss

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

In Section 117 we are going to do a "Carbon Audit" of the tax code.

Huh?

That's easy.  The thousands of pages of the tax code are not carbon neutral.  Delete 99% of them.

I forgot to mention that the above is only a small sample of "Democratic Earmark Bill 1424."

It looks quite a bit different than the administrations 3 page bill, but mark my words, if it is a failure it will be the "Failed Bush Bailout Bill of 2008"  if it is a success it will be the "Democratic Economic Rescue Bill of 2008"

Either way, it proves the usefulness of our current legislature and the GLARING need for earmark reform that many have pushed for years.

The American people were being held over the falls and Congress used it as an opportunity for blackmail.

OUTSTANDING!

OUTFREEKINGSTANDING!

What?  Most of the earmarks, or 'sweeteners' were to get enough Republicans on board to guarantee the bill would pass in the House.

I don't care what party proposed them.  They were not related to the purpose of this bill.

Most of the Republicans still voted against the bill 108 to 91.  Several votes changed on both sides, but I'm not sure it was a result of the earmarks.  They had a gun to their heads.

Either way.  Those responsible for the earmarks must be ousted! Republican, Democrat, or Cheeseweasel.