New Hotel Proposed Across from Arena

[carltonplace]

I've never thought that the idea of new old city hall as a hotel was very viable. But what do I know.

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by carltonplace

I've never thought that the idea of new old city hall as a hotel was very viable. But what do I know.

Its not, and I dont think anyone is suggesting that it would be. It could be part of a larger development on that site though. There is more than just that one tall building. You could build a large hotel just to the north of the tall building and remodel that old one into offices and perhaps other uses.

[godboko71]

One thing I think any developer will need to know is will the city county library be moving and if so when. Once that is known there will be more property and a bigger development potential.

[carltonplace]

It's becomming more and more clear to me that until we have a cohesive plan for downtown and appropriate zoning code changes already in place that we will not see the big money developers coming in.

All we hear is "there has been a flurry of interest", but still we don't see solid plans and the interest never coalesces. We've seen several entrepreneurs (and I am thankful to everyone of them that have taken the huge risk), public funds for street improvements or event centers and philanthropic endeavors but no big sure deals.

It's time to take the bull by the horns and indentify where we want residential and retail and then fix the zoning so it can happen. The city and the TDA need to unload some property at a loss so they can make a premium once the land starts getting scarce. What good is it for the city to own huge chunks of land downtown and then ask market price so they can place a bunch of flaming hoops of RFP bureaucracy that scares people away?

I'm not suggesting that we act in fear that nothing will ever happen or throw reason to the wind, but simply that we act. We've created the infrastructure, we've created lovely streets and sidewalks, we've built an iconic arena and now we've got a ballpark on the way. All of these things have created interest, but they have not been the magic bean we've hoped for.

Bottom line is we ignored downtown for so long that it turned into an empty office park...it's starting to get a glimmer of life, but not that cosmic big bang that will take it to the next stage.

Don't get me wrong. I'm glad at that Gaspar says to be paitent on this hotel development...I'm happy everytime I walk into a coffee shop in Crowne Plaza or the Mayo, get a bite at any of the great restaurants downtown, or meet friends for a beer at Arnies. But I'm worried that we will not get the critical mass (shopping...living...) until we focus.

The map says build X here, no need for a variance for X, it's already covered and we can make you a sweet deal on the land if you build "urban".

[cannon_fodder]

+1 Carltonplace.  

[TheArtist]

BINGO!

So many other cities have a "downtown plan". I was perusing through skyscraper page forums and ran across a discussion about a building going in in downtown Denver. There were colorful maps from the "Downtown Denver Infill Plan" that showed where they wanted what type of future growth to be. People were talking about which streets were the pedestrian oriented ones, or were in the future going to be designed as pedestrian friendly and the things they would be doing to get them that way and connect to other pedestrian friendly streets. People were talking about one new, really neat looking, high-rise residential, building that was being proposed, some were complaining that it wasn't pedestrian friendly enough to be in such and such an area. Others were pointing out the map and saying that actually the street designated to become pedestrian friendly was 1 over, etc. THEY HAD A PLAN! just like I have said Tulsa needs, I was amazed lol.

Developers know where they can build what. People, businesses, developers, know what each street and area in downtown will evolve into. They can make an investment, build, and know that what goes in next to them will compliment what they are doing and nobody is going to complain about what they are building and where it is lol, because the right development goes where its supposed to go, creating a well thought out downtown atmosphere.

I have no idea what the hell our approach is? And I dare say, nor does anyone else (developers, businesses) looking at our downtown lol? Its like we are a bunch of backwards hicks saying to potential developers and businesses. "Oh, we just build whatever, wherever, don't matter dude. There is no plan. Take your best bet and cross your fingers."

[Oil Capital]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

BINGO!

So many other cities have a "downtown plan". I was perusing through skyscraper page forums and ran across a discussion about a building going in in downtown Denver. There were colorful maps from the "Downtown Denver Infill Plan" that showed where they wanted what type of future growth to be. People were talking about which streets were the pedestrian oriented ones, or were in the future going to be designed as pedestrian friendly and the things they would be doing to get them that way and connect to other pedestrian friendly streets. People were talking about one new, really neat looking, high-rise residential, building that was being proposed, some were complaining that it wasn't pedestrian friendly enough to be in such and such an area. Others were pointing out the map and saying that actually the street designated to become pedestrian friendly was 1 over, etc. THEY HAD A PLAN! just like I have said Tulsa needs, I was amazed lol.

Developers know where they can build what. People, businesses, developers, know what each street and area in downtown will evolve into. They can make an investment, build, and know that what goes in next to them will compliment what they are doing and nobody is going to complain about what they are building and where it is lol, because the right development goes where its supposed to go, creating a well thought out downtown atmosphere.

I have no idea what the hell our approach is? And I dare say, nor does anyone else (developers, businesses) looking at our downtown lol? Its like we are a bunch of backwards hicks saying to potential developers and businesses. "Oh, we just build whatever, wherever, don't matter dude. There is no plan. Take your best bet and cross your fingers."

I guess that will do, if you need an "excuse du jour".  

But, seriously, downtown Tulsa's problem has not generally been that developers don't know where they are allowed/expected to build or don't know WHAT the city would like them to build.  I think we have been exceedingly clear that we will allow (and desperately hope) someone will build a hotel on the TowerView block.  Likewise for the site of the old city hall.

On the other hand, they screwed up BIG time when they ordered the developer in the new ballpark area to halt his plans.  How many developers are going to be eager to spend time and money working on plans for downtown when the city has shown it is perfectly willing to march in and hand over the opportunities to members of the club.

[DowntownNow]

I completely agree with Oil Capital.  Its not that developers dont want to develop in downtown.  Its that the City has been and continues to be viewed in a negative light when it comes to developers that are not in the club.  I know a few, and every time its the same excuse..."why would we go somewhere we're not wanted" or "its too difficult to work with the City in downtown."  The IDL is primarily CBD zoned meaning just about anything can go anywhere without limitation.

The consciencious developer will seek to work not only with the city but their neighbors surrounding the site, and the general public.  Without public support for their project, what chance do they truly have?  I remember that the devloper for that project where the ballpark is going now made an effort to ask this forum what we wanted to see...how many others have in here?  I have yet to hear the ballpark developers ask what it is the citizens of Tulsa want to see there.  No one asked what we thought of the ballpark design and some public dollars are helping build it.

Also you have to consider this.  The City makes no effort to promote what it can do for developers (i.e. tax abatement, TIF funding, grants help, incentives, etc.).  They also don't go out of their way to help in the permitting phase from what I've been told.  

The site on Denver thats the subject of the hotel development being discussed here was offered under an RFP a couple years ago for $1.75 mil if I remember right.  Thats what the Hampton Inn developer was offering but since Jones Lang LaSalle got involved, apparently its worth more ($2+ mil) and worth chasing away a developer that was ready, willing and able to fund and start Day 1...no offense Gaspar, but that was the case then.  

I hope they can make a go of it there.  But in the end, if the City wants private redevelopment to start, they have to be willing to make some efforts and sacrifices to attract it as well.